How do we reconcile John 6:44 and John 12:32?

Truthfrees said:

except in this case JESUS did not inject a noun - HE left it open for a reason - see my post to wondering about the awesomeness of what Jesus was communicating by not stating "men" but by leaving it open

and as far as flogging a dead horse as per your emoji - i agree - imo people should share the beauty of scripture as they see it and if they have an open heart perhaps try hearing what others have to say

makes no sense to pressure others to see things only your way

God bless you

the pressure to conform has caused me to think this through deeper and i now have a stronger conviction of Jesus' open ended noun-less statement being an expression of how much more EXTENSIVE the work of the cross is than simply drawing men to God

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TF,

Jesus used an adjective, pantas, that requires a noun for the sentence to have meaning. I'm not adding to Scripture when I state that 'all people' is a good translation of John 12:32 because the context indicates Jesus was speaking to people, including the crowds.

I documented this for you at #17.

I wish you'd know the original languages well enough to become a Bible translator. Then you would discover that words need to be added to help the English sentence make sense.

Would you please translate this NT verse without adding any words to cause the sentence to make sense?

ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον· ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν, ἀλλ᾽ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ μένει ἐπ᾽ αὐτόν.

Oz

wondering said:

Good reply.
Yeah,,,I'm not on any soap box either.
I plan to make manicotti for Easter...
the end better not come before then!

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wondering,

I had to check with Google. Will your manicotti look like this?



May you have a blessed, Christ-centred Easter.

Oz

OzSpen said:

wondering,

I had to check with Google. Will your manicotti look like this?

View attachment 9606

May you have a blessed, Christ-centred Easter.

Oz

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Yes! Exactly.
I make the dough myself and the filling and the sauce.
Plus an antipasto and meat and veggies and a desert.

This is NOTHING compared to how I used to cook when I
was a young'un!

Want to know what manicotti means?
Mani.........hands
cotti..........cooked

Don't even ask...I don't know why!

A blessed Easter to you too.
May Christ always be near to us and help us.

wondering said:

Yes! Exactly.
I make the dough myself and the filling and the sauce.
Plus an antipasto and meat and veggies and a desert.

This is NOTHING compared to how I used to cook when I
was a young'un!

Want to know what manicotti means?
Mani.........hands
cotti..........cooked

Don't even ask...I don't know why!

A blessed Easter to you too.
May Christ always be near to us and help us.

Click to expand...

wondering,

Google helped me understand what antipasto is. Down Under we call it hors d'oeuvre - finger food before you move into the main meal. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKkqKq7LXNg.

Oz

OzSpen said:

wondering,

Google helped me understand what antipasto is. Down Under we call it hors d'oeuvre - finger food before you move into the main meal. See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKkqKq7LXNg.

Oz

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Hmmm. Antipasto does not have to be finger food,,,but that's the idea.

OzSpen said:

Truthfrees,



However, that's exactly what you are doing yourself. You try to convince us yours is the correct view. Could that be hypocritical?

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OzSpen said:

Truthfrees,

However, that's exactly what you are doing yourself. You try to convince us yours is the correct view. Could that be hypocritical?

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so are you saying because i won't agree with you i am pressuring you and being a hypocrite?

people need to learn to share what they see and allow others to do the same

everyone could learn something that way

Truthfrees said:

so are you saying because i won't agree with you i am pressuring you and being a hypocrite?

people need to learn to share what they see and allow others to do the same

everyone could learn something that way

Click to expand...

Take a read of the meaning of hypocrite.

OzSpen said:

How can we reconcile these two Scriptures?

John 6:44 (NIV) states: 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day'. That's fairly easy to understand. No person will come to Jesus unless experiencing the inner 'drawing' by the Father.

John 12:32 (NIV): 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’ The NIV footnote indicates being 'lifted up' means 'exalted'. Many commentators consider 'I am lifted up' as a reference to Jesus' crucifixion.

How is it possible for ALL people to be drawn to Jesus? The same Greek word for 'draw' is used in these two verses.

Is it possible to reconcile these two verses without John 12:32 meaning all people are drawn to Jesus and thus a promotion of universalism - everyone will be saved?

Oz

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If one uses the word attract, shine a positive light upon, put into context.

If I offered $1 million to anyone who could meet me at a specific time and place, that is drawing an audience. It is not saying all who respond will get what is offered or even that this is anything more that stating reality and an attractive proposition.

Some seem to think drawing is like a robotic command which the robots must follow, as there is no free will and all will respond.

You could say we are drawn to food, especially when hungry, because we need it to stay alive. But this is also about free will, and hunger strikes and fasting are one way to demonstrate the choice involved.

So in this context, these verses do not contradict each other, but demonstrate God is involved in everything related to Christ, and we do not by ourselves realise who Jesus is, it is Gods work in our hearts who has made and planned each step of the way.

Jesus wanted to underline our choice is within and through Gods work and grace, and we are in His hands all the time, bounded by His creative work, while in this privileged place given the ability to choose. Oh what glorious love and grace He lavishes on us, poor lost sinners who have been cleansed and purified in His glorious light, Amen.

PeterJens said:

If one uses the word attract, shine a positive light upon, put into context.

If I offered $1 million to anyone who could meet me at a specific time and place, that is drawing an audience. It is not saying all who respond will get what is offered or even that this is anything more that stating reality and an attractive proposition.

Some seem to think drawing is like a robotic command which the robots must follow, as there is no free will and all will respond.

You could say we are drawn to food, especially when hungry, because we need it to stay alive. But this is also about free will, and hunger strikes and fasting are one way to demonstrate the choice involved.

So in this context, these verses do not contradict each other, but demonstrate God is involved in everything related to Christ, and we do not by ourselves realise who Jesus is, it is Gods work in our hearts who has made and planned each step of the way.

Jesus wanted to underline our choice is within and through Gods work and grace, and we are in His hands all the time, bounded by His creative work, while in this privileged place given the ability to choose. Oh what glorious love and grace He lavishes on us, poor lost sinners who have been cleansed and purified in His glorious light, Amen.

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Well said, Peter J,

In my understanding, the Greek language, like English can use the one word with a number of meanings.

My avatar shows a hump-back whale with a whale-watching boat in the background. So here, whale refers to a large marine mammal. However, I can say I went to my friend's party and had a whale of a time. By that, I mean I enjoyed myself very much.

The same word translated 'draw' in John 6:44 is found in Acts 16:19 and James 2:6 where the translation is 'drag'.

I don't know of a Calvinist who would agree that John 12:32 uses 'draw' to mean 'drag' because that would mean 'all' would be dragged to Jesus, thus indicating universalism. In Jn 6:44 and Jn 12:32 it is used ‘metaphorically to draw by inward power, lead, impel…. I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all’ (Thayer 1962:204-205).

Oz

Truthfrees said:

the greek does not say draw all men unto

the greek says draw all unto

to add a word that isn't there is not right imo

in the nkjv and i think in the nasv when a word has been added by the translators that is not in the original it is in italics - this is to make clear which words are God's words and which words are translator's words

i find it best for myself to read only the words that were there BEFORE the translators got to adding what they thought was best

if that is not best for you that is ok with me

i find it very illuminating to read only what God said and not be swayed by what translators added

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Yes sir.

Men or people’s is in italics.

Because the word “all” in the Greek means everyone.

Oz gave the context and its clear enough.


If “all“ doesn’t refer to everyone, (all people), then what does “all” refer to?


Can you at least agree that Jesus intended to save both Jews and Gentiles by His death on the cross?




JLB

JLB said:

Yes sir.

Men or people’s is in italics.

Because the word “all” in the Greek means everyone.

Oz gave the context and its clear enough.


If “all“ doesn’t refer to everyone, (all people), then what does “all” refer to?


Can you at least agree that Jesus intended to save both Jews and Gentiles by His death on the cross?




JLB

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About Jesus, all who listen to his teaching feel drawn. I have heard many discount the effect because Jesus was a good man.

I think it is more profound, like scripture being a fractal, deep in the simplest statements yet complex in the longer passages while reflecting the same truths.

I am reminded that we tend to explain away things in life rather than waiting for understanding. I used to read scripture and the one view was it. Little did I see I was blind to the other implications because I thought I understood. Once you begin to appreciate the jewels things change.

God bless you

OzSpen said:

Take a read of the meaning of hypocrite.

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that's kinda petty - just because people disagree with you?

JLB said:

Yes sir.

Men or people’s is in italics.

Because the word “all” in the Greek means everyone.

Oz gave the context and its clear enough.


If “all“ doesn’t refer to everyone, (all people), then what does “all” refer to?


Can you at least agree that Jesus intended to save both Jews and Gentiles by His death on the cross?




JLB

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In a different thread I'm being told that draw in John 12:32 has the same meaning as in
John 6:44.

HOWEVER, in John 12:32 I'm told that the difference is in the word ALL.
He says ALL means every TYPE of person.

This sounds right...
Is it right?

Waiting for an answer there...
what do YOU say?

Maybe OzSpen could give his opinion too.

Thanks.

wondering said:

In a different thread I'm being told that draw in John 12:32 has the same meaning as in
John 6:44.

HOWEVER, in John 12:32 I'm told that the difference is in the word ALL.
He says ALL means every TYPE of person.

This sounds right...
Is it right?

Waiting for an answer there...
what do YOU say?

Maybe OzSpen could give his opinion too.

Thanks.

Click to expand...

wondering,

It is a standard Calvinistic technique to sometimes make 'all' refer not to all people but all types of people. That's why careful exegesis of these two verses is necessary to obtain an understanding of what is being stated.

John 12:32 uses the same verb for ‘pull’ as in John 6:44: ‘And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself’ (Jn 12:32 NIV). However, do these 2 verses use draw/pull in the sense of irresistible grace or not?

For me, questions include:

• Jesus’ being ‘lifted up’ most often refers to the crucifixion. How can all people everywhere be drawn to him since the crucifixion?
• Are they all saved? If so, this is the heretical doctrine of universalism.
• I can accept the need of the Father to draw people to Jesus, but how can John 12:32 avoid universal salvation?

Let’s check some major theological views on John 12:32

The Calvinistic view

The Calvinistic website, Monergism, includes an article, ‘Does the Spirit Draw All People That They May Have An Opportunity to Respond?’

In it, the author John Hendryx states concerning John 12:32:

Remember that Jesus speaks of John 12 in a completely different context as John 6. Take the time to read that passage and you will quickly discover that it is an entirely different discussion. In John 6 Jesus is speaking to some unbelieving Jews and in John 12 to a group of Gentiles. The emphasis is that Jesus was doing something new…

Up to that time only the Jews were privy to God’s revelation…
Gentiles were largely excluded. Now Jesus was grafting the gentiles onto the vine … so in content of John 12… Jesus is not teaching that he is going to draw all men without exception, but all men without distinction – Jews and Gentiles alike.

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Calvinistic commentator, D A Carson, takes a similar line of interpretation in John 12:32:


The late Leon Morris admitted:

“All men” is something of a problem. In fact not every man is drawn to Christ as this Gospel envisages the possibility that some will not be [he gives no Bible references]. We must take the expression accordingly to mean that those who are to be drawn will be drawn. That is to say Christ is not affirming that the whole world will be saved. He is affirming that all who are to be saved will be saved in this way. And he is speaking of a universal rather than a narrowly nationalistic religion. The death of Christ would mean the end of particularism. By virtue of that death, “all men” and not the Jews alone should be drawn. And they would be drawn only by virtue of that death (Morris1971:598-599).

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These are verses from John’s Gospel that confirm ‘all men’ does not mean everyone who has ever lived since the crucifixion – according to the above scholars.

‘Draw’ means to ‘drag’

Ligonier Ministries (the teaching fellowship of R C Sproul) claims:

It is also clear that any position that says the Lord only “woos” us cannot be maintained. The same word translated “draw” in John 6:44 is found in Acts 16:19 and James 2:6 where the apostolic authors speak of someone being “dragged” somewhere. Though the elect may try at first to resist God’s drawing, He drags us, against our fallen wills, to Jesus. God overcomes our natural enmity toward Himself and guarantees that His elect people will choose to follow Christ.

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This is an extreme Calvinistic view, not supported by the Lexicons’ definition of helkuō (or elkō). Thayer agrees with Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich in defining elkō: In Acts 16:19 and James 2:6 it means ‘a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off)’. However, in Jn 6:44 and 12:32 it is used ‘metaphorically to draw by inward power, lead, impel…. I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all’ (Thayer 1962:204-205).

There is much more to the exegesis of John 12:32 than what I've given here. We need to look at the Arminian and 'moderate Calvinist view' as well. That's for another post.

Oz

OzSpen said:

wondering,

It is a standard Calvinistic technique to sometimes make 'all' refer not to all people but all types of people. That's why careful exegesis of these two verses is necessary to obtain an understanding of what is being stated.

John 12:32 uses the same verb for ‘pull’ as in John 6:44: ‘And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself’ (Jn 12:32 NIV). However, do these 2 verses use draw/pull in the sense of irresistible grace or not?

For me, questions include:

• Jesus’ being ‘lifted up’ most often refers to the crucifixion. How can all people everywhere be drawn to him since the crucifixion?
• Are they all saved? If so, this is the heretical doctrine of universalism.
• I can accept the need of the Father to draw people to Jesus, but how can John 12:32 avoid universal salvation?

Let’s check some major theological views on John 12:32

The Calvinistic view

The Calvinistic website, Monergism, includes an article, ‘Does the Spirit Draw All People That They May Have An Opportunity to Respond?’

In it, the author John Hendryx states concerning John 12:32:



Calvinistic commentator, D A Carson, takes a similar line of interpretation in John 12:32:

Here, ‘all men’ reminds the reader of what triggered these statements, viz. the arrival of the Greeks, and means ‘all people without distinction, Jews and Gentiles alike’, not all individuals without exception, since the surrounding context has just established judgment as a major theme (v. 31) [Carson 1991:444].​

The late Leon Morris admitted:



These are verses from John’s Gospel that confirm ‘all men’ does not mean everyone who has ever lived since the crucifixion – according to the above scholars.

‘Draw’ means to ‘drag’

Ligonier Ministries (the teaching fellowship of R C Sproul) claims:



This is an extreme Calvinistic view, not supported by the Lexicons’ definition of helkuō (or elkō). Thayer agrees with Bauer, Arndt & Gingrich in defining elkō: In Acts 16:19 and James 2:6 it means ‘a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off)’. However, in Jn 6:44 and 12:32 it is used ‘metaphorically to draw by inward power, lead, impel…. I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all’ (Thayer 1962:204-205).

There is much more to the exegesis of John 12:32 than what I've given here. We need to look at the Arminian and 'moderate Calvinist view' as well. That's for another post.

Oz

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Thanks Oz,,,I said some of the above.

Also, I've thought about the TYPE problem....

DRAWING EVERY TYPE
is not the same as
DRAWING EVERY PERSON

Because Drawing Every Type could mean that ONLY SOME PERSONS
from each TYPE are drawn!

So, yes, it's wrong....

Thanks for the above.

wondering said:

Thanks Oz,,,I said some of the above.

Also, I've thought about the TYPE problem....

DRAWING EVERY TYPE
is not the same as
DRAWING EVERY PERSON

Because Drawing Every Type could mean that ONLY SOME PERSONS
from each TYPE are drawn!

So, yes, it's wrong....

Thanks for the above.

Click to expand...

wondering,

John Wesley, an Arminian, considered John 12:32, ‘I will draw all men — [to mean] Gentiles as well as Jews’.

An Arminian Baptist wrote of this verse:

The Calvinist who takes “all” to mean “all kinds” has to resort to saying, “There was a common misconception among the people known to the Evangelist who really wanted only one kind of people to be saved, and the Evangelist emphasises “all kinds” to fix this misconception.” Maybe such people thought that God only wanted men saved whose last name began with ? (pi). But you don’t find such stuff in John’s Gospel. There simply is no emphasis on the diversity of the Elect in John’s Gospel, or in John’s letters, either.

What you do find in John’s Gospel is the incredible news that Jesus even loves you! For Jesus loves everyone! The Calvinist inverse of this statement, “Jesus doesn’t love everyone! He might not love you!” is so shocking and contrary to expectation, that if it were true, you’d expect John to make explicit exclusive statements to this effect, including long, protracted argumentation.

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The Arminian conclusion is confirmed by the entry in “little” Kittel, Greek word study of John 12:32,

There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic (p. 227).

Click to expand...

I'll provide a 'moderate Calvinist' response in another post and then my assessment of the exegesis of John 6:44 and John 12:32.

Oz

OzSpen said:

wondering,

John Wesley, an Arminian, considered John 12:32, ‘I will draw all men — [to mean] Gentiles as well as Jews’.

An Arminian Baptist wrote of this verse:



The Arminian conclusion is confirmed by the entry in “little” Kittel, Greek word study of John 12:32,



I'll provide a 'moderate Calvinist' response in another post and then my assessment of the exegesis of John 6:44 and John 12:32.

Oz

Click to expand...

Yes, your last entry in quotes is what I believe.
It's this:

There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic (p. 227).

It cannot mean anything else....or universalism would be true.

wondering said:

Yes, your last entry in quotes is what I believe.
It's this:

There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic (p. 227).

It cannot mean anything else....or universalism would be true.

Click to expand...

In our discussions I saw a man die with a few followers around him, most fled in fear of their lives.

Yet here we are talking about Him and this one act, that draws and founds our very identity. Jesus was declaring this very thing we are doing. And yet they are not all in faith.

Chaff is inconsistent blown about by emotions, no core, but those in Christ stand firm. This predictability is the Holy Spirit at work bringing reality to bear, because we are safe on him.

I have seen this in those not born of Him and those lost within themselves. We need Jesus to make us whole, so we can stand. We know we stand because of the strength He gives, it's reality. We know this each day, Amen

OzSpen said:

How can we reconcile these two Scriptures?

John 6:44 (NIV) states: 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day'. That's fairly easy to understand. No person will come to Jesus unless experiencing the inner 'drawing' by the Father.

John 12:32 (NIV): 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’ The NIV footnote indicates being 'lifted up' means 'exalted'. Many commentators consider 'I am lifted up' as a reference to Jesus' crucifixion.

How is it possible for ALL people to be drawn to Jesus? The same Greek word for 'draw' is used in these two verses.

Is it possible to reconcile these two verses without John 12:32 meaning all people are drawn to Jesus and thus a promotion of universalism - everyone will be saved?

Oz

Click to expand...

The drawing can be resisted so no Universalism. God draws men by His word when men have 'taught' 'heard' and 'learn' Jn 6:45. The word by which God draws men can be rejected Jn 5:38-40.

Jn 21:6 "And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw (helko) it for the multitude of fishes." The drawing (helko) WAS resisted.

Tench's NT Synonyms

Drag

syro (G4951) Drag
helkyo (G1670) Draw

The difference between syro and helkyo is theologically important and is best expressed in English by translating syrein as "to drag" and helkyein as "to draw." The notion of force is always present in syrein. Thus Plutarch spoke of the headlong course of a river "as dragging [syron] and carrying along everything." Consequently, where persons and not things are in question, syrein involves the notion of violence. Although the notion of force or violence may be present in helkyein, it is not necessarily so, any more than the English draw, when used to refer to mental and moral attraction, necessarily implies the use of force.

Only by keeping these differences in mind can we correct the erroneous interpretation of two doctrinally important passages in the Gospel of John. The first is John 12:32: "I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples [pantas helkyso] to myself." But how does a crucified and exalted Savior draw all people to himself? Certainly not by force, for the will is incapable of force, but by the divine attractions of his love. In John 6:44 Jesus said: "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him [helkyse auton]. "Those who deny theories of "irresistible grace" that portray men as machines that are dragged to God must assert that helkyse refers only to the drawing power of love, to the Father's attracting men to the Son. Had syrein been used in either of these Johannine texts, then those who believe that "irresistible grace" means forcing someone to believe against his or her will might argue that Jesus' declarations leave no room for any other interpretation than theirs. But syrein was not used in these passages.

More specifically, helkyein predominantly refers to drawing someone or something to a certain point; syrein refers to dragging something after oneself. Thus Lucian, in comparing a man to a fish that has been hooked and dragged through the water, described him as "being dragged [syromenon] and led by necessity." Frequently, syrein refers to something that is dragged or trailed on the ground, quite apart from its own will, such as a dead body. To confirm this, compare John 21:6, 11 with verse 8 of the same chapter. In verses 6 and 11, helkyein refers to drawing the net full of fish to a certain point on the ship and to drawing the net to the land. But in verse 8, where the disciples drag the net full of fish behind them through the water, syrein, not helkyein, is used. The Authorized Version maintains this distinction, as does De Wette's German translation. Neither the Vulgate nor Beza, however, distinguish the two words, which they translate by traho (draw).

OzSpen said:

How can we reconcile these two Scriptures?

John 6:44 (NIV) states: 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day'. That's fairly easy to understand. No person will come to Jesus unless experiencing the inner 'drawing' by the Father.

John 12:32 (NIV): 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’ The NIV footnote indicates being 'lifted up' means 'exalted'. Many commentators consider 'I am lifted up' as a reference to Jesus' crucifixion.

How is it possible for ALL people to be drawn to Jesus? The same Greek word for 'draw' is used in these two verses.

Is it possible to reconcile these two verses without John 12:32 meaning all people are drawn to Jesus and thus a promotion of universalism - everyone will be saved?

Oz

Click to expand...

The passages are easily reconciled by considering the context. If we remember that Jesus said He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel we conclude that His ministry was to the Jews. In John 6:44 Jesus was literally standing before them and said no one could come to Him unless the Father draws him. This drawing was for the purpose of gathering a group of men that Jesus would teach and send out to spread the Gospel to the world. In John 12:32 Jesus says if He is lifted up He will draw all unto Him. He was lifted up, on the cross; It was at this time that He would draw all unto Him. John shows us this in chapter 1.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world (Jn. 1:6-9 KJV)

John tells us that it was through the "Light" Jesus, that all men might be saved. John clarifies his, "all" by saying Christ lights every man coming into the world. Here he uses the singular, every man, to indicate that it is every single one. He also tells us that Christ gives light, or understanding to every man coming into the world. So, Christ gives some level of understanding to every person who is born into this world. However, Notice too that John said all men might be saved. So, it's possible but not guaranteed. So, Universalism isn't an issue.