How do we reconcile John 6:44 and John 12:32?

[OzSpen]

the greek does not say draw all men unto

the greek says draw all unto

to add a word that isn't there is not right imo

in the nkjv and i think in the nasv when a word has been added by the translators that is not in the original it is in italics - this is to make clear which words are God's words and which words are translator's words

i find it best for myself to read only the words that were there BEFORE the translators got to adding what they thought was best

if that is not best for you that is ok with me

i find it very illuminating to read only what God said and not be swayed by what translators added

'All' is an adjective in the Greek and requires a noun to modify it to make sense in translating a sentence.

 

[GodsGrace]

the greek does not say draw all men unto

the greek says draw all unto

to add a word that isn't there is not right imo

in the nkjv and i think in the nasv when a word has been added by the translators that is not in the original it is in italics - this is to make clear which words are God's words and which words are translator's words

i find it best for myself to read only the words that were there BEFORE the translators got to adding what they thought was best

if that is not best for you that is ok with me

i find it very illuminating to read only what God said and not be swayed by what translators added

But you ARE being swayed.
Somehow or other you believe it means ALL THINGS.

Do you speak any Romance languages?
Attraro' tutti a me.
Do you see the word UOMINI in that sentence?
UOMINI means MEN
It's NOT THERE. But the word UOMINI is contained in the word TUTTI.

This is a concept not understood well in the English.
It works this same way for Greek, Spanish and French.

It could have said:
I WILL DRAW ALL TO MYSELF....
It still would have made sense because Jesus was speaking to a crowd of persons...He was telling them that He would draw all of them, and all men, to Himself.

Who did the serpent in the desert attract when raised by Moses?
Men.
This passage refers back to that.
Numbers 21:8-9
8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.”
9And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

The parsing of pantas is masculine (gender), accusative (case) and plural number of the adjective, pas. Because it is an adjective, it generally needs a modifying noun that agrees with the gender of the adjective. Therefore, this has led to John 12:32 being accurately translated as 'all men/people' because anthropos is a masculine noun to agree with the masculine adjective.

However, as I've indicated in my post #17 above, there is plenty of evidence in the surrounding context of John 12:32 to indicate Jesus was speaking to people. There is no need to go searching for another noun to accompany pantas because the context clears that up.

The issue now relates to how we translate the verb helkuō (I draw).

Oz

Draw....

John 6:44
. 44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. "


John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”


I have no problem in reconciling them, since they do seem to conflict.
Does God bring to Jesus
Or does Jesus bring to Himself?

Jesus draws (attracts) man to Himself because it is HE who fulfills the New Covenant and all those that wish to be in the New Covenant will be there due to Jesus' sacrifice and the love they feel for Him.

OTOH,,,,it is God that attracts men to Jesus.
But which men? It almost sounds like God will draw only certain men of His choice.
By other verses we can know that God wishes to save all persons
1 Timothy 2:4

We know that we choose to believe in God
John 3:16

God attracts ALL MEN to Himself...
Romans 1:19-20


As to the word DRAW....
In these two cases the Greek word used means TO DRAW....NOT to drag.

It's unfortunate that it was translated this way.
This same Greek word is used for:
JOHN 6:44
JOHN 12:32
JOHN 18:10
JOHN 21:6
JOHN 21:11
ACTS 16:19
ACTS 21:30
JAMES 2:6

And yet it means something different in each verse.

 

[Truthfrees]

But you ARE being swayed.
Somehow or other you believe it means ALL THINGS.

Do you speak any Romance languages?
Attraro' tutti a me.
Do you see the word UOMINI in that sentence?
UOMINI means MEN
It's NOT THERE. But the word UOMINI is contained in the word TUTTI.

This is a concept not understood well in the English.
It works this same way for Greek, Spanish and French.

It could have said:
I WILL DRAW ALL TO MYSELF....
It still would have made sense because Jesus was speaking to a crowd of persons...He was telling them that He would draw all of them, and all men, to Himself.

Who did the serpent in the desert attract when raised by Moses?
Men.
This passage refers back to that.
Numbers 21:8-9
8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.”
9And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived.

but you don't know that for sure

 

[Truthfrees]

'All' is an adjective in the Greek and requires a noun to modify it to make sense in translating a sentence.

except in this case he did not inject a noun - HE left it open for a reason - see my post to wondering about the awesomeness of what he was communicating by not stating "men" but by leaving it open

and as far as flogging a dead horse as per your emoji - i agree - imo people should share the beauty of scripture as they see it and if they have an open heart perhaps try hearing what others have to say

makes no sense to pressure others to see things only your way

God bless you

 

[GodsGrace]

but you don't know that for sure

Jesus could have easily said all men - he did it other places - but He chose to say ALL this time -

if you want to narrow it to all men it is fine with me - if i choose to allow it to say ALL because Jesus said ALL then i hope you can allow me to follow Jesus rather than the opinions of men

just a question: what is it with people who want so much to make everyone see things their way?

why do i have to conform to man's opinion? your opinion? the opinion of the loudest voices in this thread?

it seems like people who discuss theology do so to make converts rather than sharing what they see and hearing what others see and perhaps everyone grow a little bit more in their relationship with God

just a strange atmosphere to be arguing that even though Jesus this time said ALL rather than ALL MEN that i must conform to group think

imo JESUS was saying a whole lot more than you think He was saying - and if you limit it to MEN you won't see some wonderful things Jesus is saying - iow the fullness of what HE was about to do on the cross -

IOW HE DID ALL kinds of things via His death on the cross - not just draw men to God - think about it - think about the multi-faceted - layer upon layer - POWER of GOD ACTIVATED in spirit soul and body realms by the SHED BLOOD of the LAMB of GOD on the CROSS

any way God Bless you

i just talked myself happy by thinking this through to the limitlessness that i believe these words of our Savior are speaking

You can see it as someone trying to convince another person to see it their way.
To me it's a sharing that can bring to a new understanding of something or think of something in a new way.

If we do this YOUR way,,,then you state what you believe and I state what I believe and that's the end of the conversation.,

I like to CONTINUE the conversation because that's the only way new thoughts will come out.
Hopefully, new things will be said...if it starts to repeat, that's when I like to stop.

If you've noticed I don't go on with a topic forever unless the other person brings up new ideas.
It makes me think on those ideas. It's unfortunate if you see this as trying to make you see it my way.

For instance, if you posted some other verses where Jesus says ALL MEN, it might clarify something for me. Other persons can think of things I never thought of.

I speak to another member all the time about our differences...it's interesting to know how he thinks. I enjoy posting and have no problem until, as I've said, repeating begins and then there truly is nothing to gain but it can become an argument so I stop.

But, if you don't care to continue...then I respect that.

 

[GodsGrace]

except in this case JESUS did not inject a noun - HE left it open for a reason - see my post to wondering about the awesomeness of what Jesus was communicating by not stating "men" but by leaving it open

and as far as flogging a dead horse as per your emoji - i agree - imo people should share the beauty of scripture as they see it and if they have an open heart perhaps try hearing what others have to say

makes no sense to pressure others to see things only your way

God bless you

the pressure to conform has caused me to think this through deeper and i now have a stronger conviction of Jesus' open ended noun-less statement being an expression of how much more EXTENSIVE the work of the cross is than simply drawing men to God

What is its extensiveness?

 

[Truthfrees]

What is its extensiveness?

i'm thinking about what all is included in ALL

going to keep thinking on this because i'm sure there's way more

 

[Truthfrees]

You can see it as someone trying to convince another person to see it their way.
To me it's a sharing that can bring to a new understanding of something or think of something in a new way.

If we do this YOUR way,,,then you state what you believe and I state what I believe and that's the end of the conversation.,

I like to CONTINUE the conversation because that's the only way new thoughts will come out.
Hopefully, new things will be said...if it starts to repeat, that's when I like to stop.

If you've noticed I don't go on with a topic forever unless the other person brings up new ideas.
It makes me think on those ideas. It's unfortunate if you see this as trying to make you see it my way.

For instance, if you posted some other verses where Jesus says ALL MEN, it might clarify something for me. Other persons can think of things I never thought of.

I speak to another member all the time about our differences...it's interesting to know how he thinks. I enjoy posting and have no problem until, as I've said, repeating begins and then there truly is nothing to gain but it can become an argument so I stop.

But, if you don't care to continue...then I respect that.

well maybe i misunderstood what was being said to me

 

[LovethroughDove]

How can we reconcile these two Scriptures?

John 6:44 (NIV) states: 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day'. That's fairly easy to understand. No person will come to Jesus unless experiencing the inner 'drawing' by the Father.

John 12:32 (NIV): 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.’ The NIV footnote indicates being 'lifted up' means 'exalted'. Many commentators consider 'I am lifted up' as a reference to Jesus' crucifixion.

How is it possible for ALL people to be drawn to Jesus? The same Greek word for 'draw' is used in these two verses.

Is it possible to reconcile these two verses without John 12:32 meaning all people are drawn to Jesus and thus a promotion of universalism - everyone will be saved?

Oz

The John 6:44 is for the time after people have heard the gospel preached to them.

John 12:32 to me, it is an end time thing that happens. Like and unveiling of the truth and people are absolutely floored by what they just heard or saw.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus took / drew to Himself our sins and sickness with Him on the cross

He took our guilt and shame

He took our punishment

He took our separation from God

He took us to Himself and gave us all He deserved - righteousness - favor - blessing

that's just what i can think of now

i'm thinking about what all is included in ALL

going to keep thinking on this because i'm sure there's way more

I'm sure there's more too!
I think we all know the above..well, maybe not all.
They say NEVER TO SAY ALL, because it'll always be wrong.

I fear saying this,,,but....
He said He would draw all to Himself...let's leave it at that.
DRAW in this case means ATTRACT.

So Jesus ATTRACTED all these wonderful things to Himself?

If it means ATTRACT, do you still agree that He meant all of the above?
(even though we know He did all of the above)....

I could tell you why I think this is important.
Do you care to know?
Why do You think it's important whether or not it means MEN or THINGS?

 

[GodsGrace]

The John 6:44 is for the time after people have heard the gospel preached to them.

John 12:32 to me, it is an end time thing that happens. Like and unveiling of the truth and people are absolutely floored by what they just heard or saw.

What do you think of John 12:32 meaning that Jesus is going to be lifted up like the serpent was lifted up in Numbers 21:8 ?

Do you see a "type of Jesus" in Numbers?

 

[GodsGrace]

well maybe i misunderstood what was being said to me

i got the impression i was being told that i was wrong - as though there is a right or wrong

i agree with what you said - as long as there are new interesting ideas to think over discussion is valuable

one other thing i have realized - what is a treasured thought / idea / inspiration to one person is junk / nonsense to another - iow a certain concept can draw a person toward God and another person sees it as heresy - i wish we could all discuss things without telling someone they are wrong

question: did i say anything in my original posts that seemed like i was telling people they were wrong?

maybe i need to use the 2+1- principle again - tell people 2 good things about their post before i say 1 contrary thing - so that the person realizes i like what they are saying and not get the wrong impression

TF,,,,I don't need to go back and look.
You just simply gave what you believe it to mean....
I said there were persons around and that MEN was in the word TUTTI, in Italian. Italian actually helps me to understand verses sometimes.

I was expecting you to explain WHY you thought it meant everything.
I don't think you said anyone was wrong....I'm pretty sure you didn't.

 

[LovethroughDove]

What do you think of John 12:32 meaning that Jesus is going to be lifted up like the serpent was lifted up in Numbers 21:8 ?

Do you see a "type of Jesus" in Numbers?

Yep - this correlates too
Sometimes a bunch of things can be happening simultaneously. Maybe it's revelation of the crucifixion in the end time. For me, it says "all people"....that is an end time judgement kind of thing

 

[GodsGrace]

Yep - this correlates too
Sometimes a bunch of things can be happening simultaneously. Maybe it's revelation of the crucifixion in the end time. For me, it says "all people"....that is an end time judgement kind of thing

This confuses me.
Do you say that all people will be judged at the end times?
Keep in mind that I know very little about the end times (eschatology).
Are the lost judged for sins
and the saved judged for rewards?

 

[LovethroughDove]

This confuses me.
Do you say that all people will be judged at the end times?
Keep in mind that I know very little about the end times (eschatology).
Are the lost judged for sins
and the saved judged for rewards?

More like end time information for all peoples. Maybe I shouldn't have put judgement in my response. I was trying to highlight that it is information given and then the end comes.

 

[GodsGrace]

More like end time information for all peoples. Maybe I shouldn't have put judgement in my response. I was trying to highlight that it is information given and then the end comes.

What do you mean?
Jesus draws ALL PEOPLE ---- ALL
and then the end comes?

Some of my friends think the end is right now!
(I don't agree).

 

[LovethroughDove]

What do you mean?
Jesus draws ALL PEOPLE ---- ALL
and then the end comes?

Some of my friends think the end is right now!
(I don't agree).

Not that ALL will believe, but that ALL peoples attention will be on him.

It kinda has the vibe of the end now, but I'm not one of those people that stand on the corner with the sign saying "the end is near".

 

[GodsGrace]

Not that ALL will believe, but that ALL peoples attention will be on him.

It kinda has the vibe of the end now, but I'm not one of those people that stand on the corner with the sign saying "the end is near".

Good reply.
Yeah,,,I'm not on any soap box either.
I plan to make manicotti for Easter...
the end better not come before then!

 

[OzSpen]

but you don't know that for sure

Jesus could have easily said all men - he did it other places - but He chose to say ALL this time -

if you want to narrow it to all men it is fine with me - if i choose to allow it to say ALL because Jesus said ALL then i hope you can allow me to follow Jesus rather than the opinions of men

just a question: what is it with people who want so much to make everyone see things their way?

why do i have to conform to man's opinion? your opinion? the opinion of the loudest voices in this thread?

it seems like people who discuss theology do so to make converts rather than sharing what they see and hearing what others see and perhaps everyone grow a little bit more in their relationship with God

just a strange atmosphere to be arguing that even though Jesus this time said ALL rather than ALL MEN that i must conform to group think

imo JESUS was saying a whole lot more than you think He was saying - and if you limit it to MEN you won't see some wonderful things Jesus is saying - iow the fullness of what HE was about to do on the cross -

IOW HE DID ALL kinds of things via His death on the cross - not just draw men to God - think about it - think about the multi-faceted - layer upon layer - POWER of GOD ACTIVATED in spirit soul and body realms by the SHED BLOOD of the LAMB of GOD on the CROSS

any way God Bless you

i just talked myself happy by thinking this through to the limitlessness that i believe these words of our Savior are speaking

Truthfrees,

if i choose to allow it to say ALL because Jesus said ALL then i hope you can allow me to follow Jesus rather than the opinions of men

just a question: what is it with people who want so much to make everyone see things their way?

why do i have to conform to man's opinion? your opinion? the opinion of the loudest voices in this thread?

However, that's exactly what you are doing yourself. You try to convince us yours is the correct view. Could that be hypocritical?