Bible Study Church Women Are to Be Well Behaved.

Hopeful said:

All the churches, including today's.
No specific body is mentioned in his letter.

Which specific woman?

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The Lady who has a sister in the same letter.
And what are the names of their children that are saved.
What are the names of their children that are not saved.
Where does this Lady live?
So many questions and you don't have an answer for any of them.

Isilwen said:

I like others have mentioned believe that teaching was for a specific time and place and not for all times.

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What criteria do you use to determine a time limitation on God's commands/instructions: A woman must quietly receive instruction with all submissiveness. 12 I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet [in the congregation]. Paul gives reasons for this instruction in verses 13 and 14 and those reasons have not changed.

Isilwen said:

Paul was reacting to a circumstance within that particular church that needed to be addressed.

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You point out that the instructions were to a particular church. Paul gives similar instructions to the Corinthians: 1 Cor. 14:34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but are to take a subordinate place, as the Law says.

It is possible that the 'time sensitive' criteria you have to ignore God's commands could be used to ignore other commands and if so, which commands?

Fastfredy0 said:

What criteria do you use to determine a time limitation on God's commands/instructions: A woman must quietly receive instruction with all submissiveness. 12 I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet [in the congregation]. Paul gives reasons for this instruction in verses 13 and 14 and those reasons have not changed.


You point out that the instructions were to a particular church. Paul gives similar instructions to the Corinthians: 1 Cor. 14:34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but are to take a subordinate place, as the Law says.

It is possible that the 'time sensitive' criteria you have to ignore God's commands could be used to ignore other commands and if so, which commands?

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Such as there are no criteria to say that it was for all time. We have to look at other things such as time and place. As I said, I learn better under women and will always seek a woman to teach me when I go to church. Right now that just isn't possible and hasn't been for over three years.

I will not answer your which commands question as my salvation is none of your concern!

Isilwen said:

Such as there are no criteria to say that it was for all time.

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Interesting. Perhaps the DO NOT KILL command has expired? *giggles*

Isilwen said:

I will not answer your which commands questions as my salvation is none of your concern!

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??????? Not sure how "women teaching men" and "your salvation" are connected. It's not like it is the "unforgivable sin". *giggles*

Fastfredy0 said:

Perhaps the DO NOT KILL command has expired?

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Actually, it's do not murder, but I digress.

Fastfredy0 said:

Not sure how "women teaching men" and "your salvation" are connected. It's not like it is the "unforgivable sin"

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You asked what other commands can be ignored and usually that devolves into talk of salvation. That is where that came from.

Fastfredy0 said:

What criteria do you use to determine a time limitation on God's commands/instructions: A woman must quietly receive instruction with all submissiveness. 12 I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet [in the congregation]. Paul gives reasons for this instruction in verses 13 and 14 and those reasons have not changed.


You point out that the instructions were to a particular church. Paul gives similar instructions to the Corinthians: 1 Cor. 14:34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but are to take a subordinate place, as the Law says.

It is possible that the 'time sensitive' criteria you have to ignore God's commands could be used to ignore other commands and if so, which commands?

Click to expand...

I would say one must be careful about placing Paul's opinions/instructions up there with Christ's. Paul said we should not marry. Why don't we obey? I have heard there is even a religion who places more weight in Paul's teachings than Christ's. I don't know if this is truly another religion as I know nothing of it. It was in something I read decades ago.

Fastfredy0 said:

What criteria do you use to determine a time limitation on God's commands/instructions: A woman must quietly receive instruction with all submissiveness. 12 I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet [in the congregation]. Paul gives reasons for this instruction in verses 13 and 14 and those reasons have not changed.


You point out that the instructions were to a particular church. Paul gives similar instructions to the Corinthians: 1 Cor. 14:34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but are to take a subordinate place, as the Law says.

It is possible that the 'time sensitive' criteria you have to ignore God's commands could be used to ignore other commands and if so, which commands?

Click to expand...

Ooh, ooh, I know!!

daninthelionsden said:

I would say one must be careful about placing Paul's opinions/instructions up there with Christ's.

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Are you saying that the book of Timothy and/or other books written by Paul are not the Word of God? This would be a serious heresy if true.

daninthelionsden said:

Paul said we should not marry. Why don't we obey?

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I think Paul said it is better not to marry. Something about getting married is superior than burning in lust. (I didn't double check.) One thing is advice, the other are rule to be obeyed. (At least, that is my interpretation.)

daninthelionsden said:

I have heard there is even a religion who places more weight in Paul's teachings than Christ's.

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Possibly, wouldn't surprise me.

Fastfredy0 said:

Are you saying that the book of Timothy and/or other books written by Paul are not the Word of God? This would be a serious heresy if true.


I think Paul said it is better not to marry. Something about getting married is superior than burning in lust. (I didn't double check.) One thing is advice, the other are rule to be obeyed. (At least, that is my interpretation.)


Possibly, wouldn't surprise me.

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Uh, I forgot...

Fastfredy0 said:

Are you saying that the book of Timothy and/or other books written by Paul are not the Word of God? This would be a serious heresy if true.


I think Paul said it is better not to marry. Something about getting married is superior than burning in lust. (I didn't double check.) One thing is advice, the other are rule to be obeyed. (At least, that is my interpretation.)


Possibly, wouldn't surprise me.

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I like the bible in red-letter edition so I can see what is actually spoken by God and what is spoken by man. In Rev, the mighty men say something like "this is surely the Day of the Lord" and people speak as if it were so. But, that verse is not announced by angels or the Lord Himself so "Mighty men" are a poor source.
I differentiate between Paul and Christ. Christ saved me not Paul. I place priority on Christ's commandments over Paul's opinions. In verse 12 Paul said "I" not "God says".

Hopeful said:

All the churches, including today's.
No specific body is mentioned in his letter.

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All scripture is applicable for all the body of Christ, however John as well as Paul wrote letters to specific church’s or specific people.


Whether the church of Symana, Pergamos, or Ephesus.

Whether the Church of Thessalonians, Ephesus, or Rome, Timothy, Titus or Philemon, the letters were directed to specific people or churches.


When the letter opens to a specific individual, then we know that is who John was writing to. If it doesn‘t address an individual or church then it may be a general letter to be circulated.


Examples:


3 John ...
The Elder,
To the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth:


2 John ....
The Elder,
To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth,

2 John 12-13 ...
Having many things to write to you, I did not wish to do so with paper and ink; but I hope to come to you and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.
The children of your elect sister greet you. Amen.


Intro to 2 John ... The recipients, a chosen lady and her children, were obviously standing. They were walking in truth, remaining faithful to the commandments they had received from the Father. John is deeply pleased to be able to commend them.


2 John is addressed to a specific lady whom John honored and respected.



1 John does not address anyone and certainly could be considered a general letter to be sent to a group of churches he was over.




JLB

daninthelionsden said:

I like the bible in red-letter edition so I can see what is actually spoken by God and what is spoken by man.

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Actually, there is debate as to whether or not the 'red letters' are 100% accurate in regards to whether Jesus spoke them or not. That's a minor issue. For the sake of argument, I will agree to all the RED LETTERS being what Christ spoke.

daninthelionsden said:

In Rev, the mighty men say something like "this is surely the Day of the Lord" and people speak as if it were so.

Click to expand...

I agree that if a section of the Bible is a narrative, then it is true, but not necessarily something that we should emulate. I.E. Cain killed Abel doesn't mean we should kill our brother. Some prophet was told to marry a prostitute doesn't mean it a good idea for you and I. (Might caught 'sand fleas' (j/k)

daninthelionsden said:

I differentiate between Paul and Christ. Christ saved me not Paul.

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Too this we are agreed.

daninthelionsden said:

I place priority on Christ's commandments over Paul's opinions. In verse 12 Paul said "I" not "God says".

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This is an extremely dangerous proposition. The degree to which you find the Bible's to be untrue is the degree to which you commit heresy. 99% of our understanding of God is from the Bible (special revelation). I am unaware of any Christian denomination that does not believe 100% of the Bible is true as originally written. It is called the doctrine of Inspiration, the quality of being “God-breathed,” refers to the fact that God supernaturally guided the authors of the Bible to write exactly what He wanted to communicate. Everything in Scripture is there because that’s what God desired to say to humanity. The extent of that inspiration is defined by the dual terms verbal and plenary. Verbal means that every word of Scripture is God-breathed. Every single word, not just the ideas behind the words, is in the Bible because God wanted it there. The word plenary means “complete or full”; when used to describe the inspiration of God’s Word, plenary means that all parts of the Bible are equally of divine origin and equally authoritative.

• 2 Peter 1:20 But understand this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of or comes from one’s own [personal or special] interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
• 2 Samuel 23:2 “The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, And His word was on my tongue.
• 2 Corinthians 5:18 But all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ [making us acceptable to Him] and gave us the ministry of reconciliation [so that by our example we might bring others to Him],
• 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

daninthelionsden said:

In verse 12 Paul said "I" not "God says".

Click to expand...

This is an interesting statement and I can see what you are saying. The explanation I have heard is: Paul spent 3 year in Arabia (I think it was Arabia, too lazy to look it up and location not important) ... anyways, during this time Paul was instructed by Christ himself (2 Cor. 12:1-6). Keeping this in mind and back to your statement ...
1 Corinthians 7:12 To the rest I declare—I, not the Lord [since Jesus did not discuss this]—that if any [believing] brother has a wife who does not believe [in Christ], and she consents to live with him, he must not leave her. What Paul is saying is that he is not speaking what Christ told him directly while in Arabia. Nevertheless, like all Scripture, the words Paul is writing 'inspired' by the Spirit. Since God the Son and God the Spirit are of one essence anything written it 100% true. It makes no difference whether the Spirit inspired it or Christ spoke it. Aside: It if the words came from Christ directly, Paul would be dependent upon the Spirit to ensure Paul quoted Christ correctly many years later.

For a more elaborate explanation I found:

If you still disagree, I suggest you start a thread with the question: Is all of the Bible true or can some of it be doubted? (something like that ... I will be very disappointed if the staff of this site doesn't believe every part of the Bible is 100% true.

Rollo Tamasi said:

The Lady who has a sister in the same letter.
And what are the names of their children that are saved.
What are the names of their children that are not saved.
Where does this Lady live?
So many questions and you don't have an answer for any of them.

Click to expand...

I have no answer because there was no woman.
The "lady" of 2 John, is the bride of Christ.

Fastfredy0 said:

Actually, there is debate as to whether or not the 'red letters' are 100% accurate in regards to whether Jesus spoke them or not. That's a minor issue. For the sake of argument, I will agree to all the RED LETTERS being what Christ spoke.


I agree that if a section of the Bible is a narrative, then it is true, but not necessarily something that we should emulate. I.E. Cain killed Abel doesn't mean we should kill our brother. Some prophet was told to marry a prostitute doesn't mean it a good idea for you and I. (Might caught 'sand fleas' (j/k)


Too this we are agreed.


This is an extremely dangerous proposition. The degree to which you find the Bible's to be untrue is the degree to which you commit heresy. 99% of our understanding of God is from the Bible (special revelation). I am unaware of any Christian denomination that does not believe 100% of the Bible is true as originally written. It is called the doctrine of Inspiration, the quality of being “God-breathed,” refers to the fact that God supernaturally guided the authors of the Bible to write exactly what He wanted to communicate. Everything in Scripture is there because that’s what God desired to say to humanity. The extent of that inspiration is defined by the dual terms verbal and plenary. Verbal means that every word of Scripture is God-breathed. Every single word, not just the ideas behind the words, is in the Bible because God wanted it there. The word plenary means “complete or full”; when used to describe the inspiration of God’s Word, plenary means that all parts of the Bible are equally of divine origin and equally authoritative.

• 2 Peter 1:20 But understand this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of or comes from one’s own [personal or special] interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
• 2 Samuel 23:2 “The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, And His word was on my tongue.
• 2 Corinthians 5:18 But all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ [making us acceptable to Him] and gave us the ministry of reconciliation [so that by our example we might bring others to Him],
• 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

This is an interesting statement and I can see what you are saying. The explanation I have heard is: Paul spent 3 year in Arabia (I think it was Arabia, too lazy to look it up and location not important) ... anyways, during this time Paul was instructed by Christ himself (2 Cor. 12:1-6). Keeping this in mind and back to your statement ...
1 Corinthians 7:12 To the rest I declare—I, not the Lord [since Jesus did not discuss this]—that if any [believing] brother has a wife who does not believe [in Christ], and she consents to live with him, he must not leave her. What Paul is saying is that he is not speaking what Christ told him directly while in Arabia. Nevertheless, like all Scripture, the words Paul is writing 'inspired' by the Spirit. Since God the Son and God the Spirit are of one essence anything written it 100% true. It makes no difference whether the Spirit inspired it or Christ spoke it. Aside: It if the words came from Christ directly, Paul would be dependent upon the Spirit to ensure Paul quoted Christ correctly many years later.

For a more elaborate explanation I found:

I, Not The Lord (1 Corinthians 7:12)

Last week I posted some new ideas on the passage in 1 Corinthians that seems to say it is better to stay single than to marry. If you missed the post, you can get all caught up here. One question t…

www.challies.com

If you still disagree, I suggest you start a thread with the question: Is all of the Bible true or can some of it be doubted? (something like that ... I will be very disappointed if the staff of this site doesn't believe every part of the Bible is 100% true.

Click to expand...

You make good points and I am more thinking out loud than making belief statements. In 2 Timothy 3:16, the only scripture available was OT. If we were alive then and told Paul "Did you know that all you say will one day be considered scripture?" I have to wonder what his response would be.
I started considering sources back when I got into an argument with an admin in a different forum about Job. He said Job got afflicted due to fear/doubt. He pointed out things Job's friends said. I pointed out God said Job did nothing wrong. He placed more emphasis on his doctrine and what Job's friends said than what God Himself said about Job. Some people treat Job's friends' statements as Word of God. They are not.

Fastfredy0 said:

12 I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet [in the congregation].

Click to expand...

You must be really popular with the feminists!

Fastfredy0 said:

Actually, there is debate as to whether or not the 'red letters' are 100% accurate in regards to whether Jesus spoke them or not. That's a minor issue. For the sake of argument, I will agree to all the RED LETTERS being what Christ spoke.


I agree that if a section of the Bible is a narrative, then it is true, but not necessarily something that we should emulate. I.E. Cain killed Abel doesn't mean we should kill our brother. Some prophet was told to marry a prostitute doesn't mean it a good idea for you and I. (Might caught 'sand fleas' (j/k)


Too this we are agreed.


This is an extremely dangerous proposition. The degree to which you find the Bible's to be untrue is the degree to which you commit heresy. 99% of our understanding of God is from the Bible (special revelation). I am unaware of any Christian denomination that does not believe 100% of the Bible is true as originally written. It is called the doctrine of Inspiration, the quality of being “God-breathed,” refers to the fact that God supernaturally guided the authors of the Bible to write exactly what He wanted to communicate. Everything in Scripture is there because that’s what God desired to say to humanity. The extent of that inspiration is defined by the dual terms verbal and plenary. Verbal means that every word of Scripture is God-breathed. Every single word, not just the ideas behind the words, is in the Bible because God wanted it there. The word plenary means “complete or full”; when used to describe the inspiration of God’s Word, plenary means that all parts of the Bible are equally of divine origin and equally authoritative.

• 2 Peter 1:20 But understand this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of or comes from one’s own [personal or special] interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
• 2 Samuel 23:2 “The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, And His word was on my tongue.
• 2 Corinthians 5:18 But all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ [making us acceptable to Him] and gave us the ministry of reconciliation [so that by our example we might bring others to Him],
• 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

This is an interesting statement and I can see what you are saying. The explanation I have heard is: Paul spent 3 year in Arabia (I think it was Arabia, too lazy to look it up and location not important) ... anyways, during this time Paul was instructed by Christ himself (2 Cor. 12:1-6). Keeping this in mind and back to your statement ...
1 Corinthians 7:12 To the rest I declare—I, not the Lord [since Jesus did not discuss this]—that if any [believing] brother has a wife who does not believe [in Christ], and she consents to live with him, he must not leave her. What Paul is saying is that he is not speaking what Christ told him directly while in Arabia. Nevertheless, like all Scripture, the words Paul is writing 'inspired' by the Spirit. Since God the Son and God the Spirit are of one essence anything written it 100% true. It makes no difference whether the Spirit inspired it or Christ spoke it. Aside: It if the words came from Christ directly, Paul would be dependent upon the Spirit to ensure Paul quoted Christ correctly many years later.

For a more elaborate explanation I found:

I, Not The Lord (1 Corinthians 7:12)

Last week I posted some new ideas on the passage in 1 Corinthians that seems to say it is better to stay single than to marry. If you missed the post, you can get all caught up here. One question t…

www.challies.com

If you still disagree, I suggest you start a thread with the question: Is all of the Bible true or can some of it be doubted? (something like that ... I will be very disappointed if the staff of this site doesn't believe every part of the Bible is 100% true.

Click to expand...

I just want to say that your post is excellent and thank you for advancing my understanding.

Hopeful said:

I have no answer because there was no woman.
The "lady" of 2 John, is the bride of Christ.

Click to expand...

And that is only your opinion.

daninthelionsden said:

He placed more emphasis on his doctrine and what Job's friends said than what God Himself said about Job. Some people treat Job's friends' statements as Word of God. They are not.

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There is always danger when appropriating doctrine from a narrative text (a story).
On this thread the story of Priscilla and Aquila Teaching Apollos (Acts 18:18-28) was used to justify women teaching men.
Aside: The fact that Priscilla was mentioned first somehow was also pertinent. To me it's as pertinent as the use of a Ouija board, but whatever.
Aside 2: Re: verse 12 Paul said "I" not "God says". This also puzzled me until a came across an explanation. I also have a bias: my beliefs are base on the presuppositon the the Bible as originally written is without error and completely inspired by God. The explanation fit my presuppostion so I accept it.

EvolvingChristian said:

You must be really popular with the feminists!

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The feminists are having an issue as to whether trans men are women so they are too busy to worry about me.

Fastfredy0 said:

There is always danger when appropriating doctrine from a narrative text (a story).
On this thread the story of Priscilla and Aquila Teaching Apollos (Acts 18:18-28) was used to justify women teaching men.
Aside: The fact that Priscilla was mentioned first somehow was also pertinent. To me it's as pertinent as the use of a Ouija board, but whatever.
Aside 2: Re: verse 12 Paul said "I" not "God says". This also puzzled me until a came across an explanation. I also have a bias: my beliefs are base on the presuppositon the the Bible as originally written is without error and completely inspired by God. The explanation fit my presuppostion so I accept it.

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You should complete this statement so as not to confuse people.
Yes, these women taught Apollos but not from the pulpit.
Yes, I sometimes listen to my wife.
God has given her great wisdom.
But I still keep control.
My wife would love to get up to the pulpit and tell the pastor to take a seat.
But that would be rebellion against what God tells us to do.