Bible Study Church Women Are to Be Well Behaved.

[Jacob62]

I would say that Paul is addressing a people in a particular culture with particular habits and beliefs and Paul didn't want the early Church to have disruptions. It was culture. Also, the Church was to separate itself from the worldly systems and the pagans adorned themselves with jewelry and fancy clothes.

Nothing wrong with looking nice but don't wear a formal dress to church. IMO that draws attention to oneself and away from more important matters. A humble heart seeks to be invisible and not flaunt. Just my opinion.

Can women teach men? Well, yes. I had women teachers from kindergarten through to my Master's degree program. I have had more women teachers then men. And I learned a lot from them. So yes they can teach. And IMO, they should. They have a gift from God and should exercise it.

But should they be a preacher? Well, many are. I"m not going to judge. I'm not a legalist. If you don't like women teaching men, don't go to those churches. And if you're not loving God and your neighbor, if you're not helping the poor, orphans, widows, then hush it up. God says a lot in His word and he's commanded us in the above.

But as always, I could be wrong. I'm probably not too far off I'll bet. ;)

Women teachers can only try to explain things, and only repeat what they have heard.

Remember, in 1 Tim. 2:11-14 Paul gave his rationale for not allowing women to teach in the Church which comes directly from the fact that "the woman transgressed," not Adam. Within her uncorrupted nature, before sin had entered into her, she was entirely gullible to Satan's temptation. Today, her sinful daughters are even more gullible.

This is God's Word.

 

[Hopeful]

You place yourself pretty high. I'm not sure the other men on that boat would go along with that.[

As the other men on the boat have no connection to things "spiritual", they are not part of the equation.
In things pertaining to survival on a life boat, or sailing it, I would defer to them.

You have to have humility to serve God effectively. Otherwise your just serving yourself.
My humility doesn't extend to those who were formed for me, (1 Cor 11:8)...in your scenario.

 

[Hopeful]

I would say that Paul is addressing a people in a particular culture with particular habits and beliefs and Paul didn't want the early Church to have disruptions. It was culture. Also, the Church was to separate itself from the worldly systems and the pagans adorned themselves with jewelry and fancy clothes.

Nothing wrong with looking nice but don't wear a formal dress to church. IMO that draws attention to oneself and away from more important matters. A humble heart seeks to be invisible and not flaunt. Just my opinion.

Can women teach men? Well, yes. I had women teachers from kindergarten through to my Master's degree program. I have had more women teachers then men. And I learned a lot from them. So yes they can teach. And IMO, they should. They have a gift from God and should exercise it.

But should they be a preacher? Well, many are. I"m not going to judge. I'm not a legalist. If you don't like women teaching men, don't go to those churches. And if you're not loving God and your neighbor, if you're not helping the poor, orphans, widows, then hush it up. God says a lot in His word and he's commanded us in the above.

But as always, I could be wrong. I'm probably not too far off I'll bet. ;)

Seems you are deferring to culture.
This is something you should judge, as our guidelines are in scripture.

 

[Hopeful]

Since God does speak to others in dreams then it is the same if God is giving you instruction or was it a bad pizza you ate for supper. We have to learn to test the spirits whether it be dreams or thoughts to know for a surety that it is God speaking to us.

(what's a bad pizza?)

 

[daninthelionsden]

As the other men on the boat have no connection to things "spiritual", they are not part of the equation.
In things pertaining to survival on a life boat, or sailing it, I would defer to them.

You have to have humility to serve God effectively. Otherwise your just serving yourself.
My humility doesn't extend to those who were formed for me, (1 Cor 11:8)...in your scenario.

How you treat anyone you consider the least is how you will be judged.

 

[Jacob62]

As the other men on the boat have no connection to things "spiritual", they are not part of the equation.
In things pertaining to survival on a life boat, or sailing it, I would defer to them.

You have to have humility to serve God effectively. Otherwise your just serving yourself.
My humility doesn't extend to those who were formed for me, (1 Cor 11:8)...in your scenario.

"Those who were formed for you?" What is that supposed to mean? Anything?

 

[stovebolts]

I don't use nature to tell me about human behavior. I believe male alligators eat their young.

We can be worse than the animal kingdom...
Lamentations 4:10 NIV
With their own hands compassionate women have cooked their own children, who became their food when my people were destroyed.

But worse than that, we've sacrificed our children in brutal ways. Make no mistake, the below verse is referencing child sacrifice where the children were burned alive. Today, we have abortion.
1 Kings 11:7-8 NIV
On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. 8 He did the same for all his foreign wives, who burned incense and offered sacrifices to their gods.

Finally, I have a rule in my home. THERE IS NOTHING THAT I CAN'T VETO when it comes to decisions my wife and I discuss. That being said, I have never been brave enough to invoke my VETO RIGHT.

Lol, I like this and got a good belly laugh, thank you lol! You are a very wise man indeed!

I also have no clue as to the logic of the reason in verse 1 Tim. 2:14 why God doesn't want women teaching.

Can we mull around these verses without having to be right or fear of being wrong? I find I learn best by tossing ideas around and investigating. I can't do that if I have to be right or prove everything. In short, I'm not out to debate, but just sharpen my understanding with wise individuals like yourself. That means I don't have to be right, and I don't have to fear being wrong.

1 Timothy 2:11-15 NIV
11 A woman[a] (wife) should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman (wife) to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] (husband) she (the wife) must be quiet. 13 For Adam (husband) was formed first, then Eve (wife). 14 And Adam (husband) as not the one deceived; it was the woman (wife) who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] (wife) will be saved through childbearing—if they (husband and wife) continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Footnotes​

a 1 Timothy 2:11 Or wife; also in verse 12
b 1 Timothy 2:12 Or over her husband
c 1 Timothy 2:15 Greek she

I like the footnotes from bible gateway because it pulls the whole paragraph together. For practical purposes, lets call Adam the husband and Eve the wife. When looking at verse 11 and 12, if we read this within the context of a Husband and Wife, the hermenutics work seamlessly with verses 13 and 14. Keep in mind that the broader context of what Paul is trying to establish with Timothy in chapter 2 is how worship should look and Paul's focus is on the laity, and not so much the clergy at this point.

Before I go any further, what are your thoughts?

 

[Fastfredy0]

I like the footnotes from bible gateway because it pulls the whole paragraph together. For practical purposes, lets call Adam the husband and Eve the wife. When looking at verse 11 and 12, if we read this within the context of a Husband and Wife, the hermenutics work seamlessly with verses 13 and 14. Keep in mind that the broader context of what Paul is trying to establish with Timothy in chapter 2 is how worship should look and Paul's focus is on the laity, and not so much the clergy at this point.

Before I go any further, what are your thoughts?

I think 1 Timothy 2:9-15 is about the instruction of women as part of the worship of God. Verses 11-12 says the role of men is to instruct women. This supported by 1 Cor. 14:34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but are to take a subordinate place, as the Law says.
John MacArthur says "By using the present infinitive instead of the aorist, Paul does not forbid women to teach under appropriate conditions and circumstances, but to fill the office and role of the pastor or teacher in the life of the church." He uses the various tenses of the Greek to support his contention. I will blindly go along with this contention.

Verses 13-15 is Paul's reasoning for women to be instructed by men.
The rational of these verses is beyond my understanding. Lots of opinions by commentators.
Verse 13 ... It does seem clear that women were created for men (1 Corinthians 11:8-9) I think woman and men play different roles but are equal; as the Son and Father played different roles but are equal. I don't think men and women are equal from man's stand point (men are stronger for instance, a lot more idiots are men, etc.); but from God's viewpoint they are both IN CHRIST and the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to both and I conclude they are equal in God's sight.

Verse 14 ... I read some commentaries that seem to make some sense, but so many different ideas ... I don't like making assumptions and all the ideas out their seem to make assumptions.

Verse 15 .... women will be preserved (saved) through [the pain and dangers of] the bearing of children ... This means All women go to hell if they don't have kids
..........just kidding, need to add levity occasionally ... I have no idea that is worth considering.

 

[Hopeful]

How you treat anyone you consider the least is how you will be judged.

Amen to that.

 

[Hopeful]

"Those who were formed for you?" What is that supposed to mean? Anything?

Didn't you read the provided scripture?

 

[stovebolts]

I think 1 Timothy 2:9-15 is about the instruction of women as part of the worship of God. Verses 11-12 says the role of men is to instruct women. This supported by 1 Cor. 14:34 the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but are to take a subordinate place, as the Law says.
John MacArthur says "By using the present infinitive instead of the aorist, Paul does not forbid women to teach under appropriate conditions and circumstances, but to fill the office and role of the pastor or teacher in the life of the church." He uses the various tenses of the Greek to support his contention. I will blindly go along with this contention.

Verses 13-15 is Paul's reasoning for women to be instructed by men.
The rational of these verses is beyond my understanding. Lots of opinions by commentators.
Verse 13 ... It does seem clear that women were created for men (1 Corinthians 11:8-9) I think woman and men play different roles but are equal; as the Son and Father played different roles but are equal. I don't think men and women are equal from man's stand point (men are stronger for instance, a lot more idiots are men, etc.); but from God's viewpoint they are both IN CHRIST and the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to both and I conclude they are equal in God's sight.

Verse 14 ... I read some commentaries that seem to make some sense, but so many different ideas ... I don't like making assumptions and all the ideas out their seem to make assumptions.

Verse 15 .... women will be preserved (saved) through [the pain and dangers of] the bearing of children ... This means All women go to hell if they don't have kids
..........just kidding, need to add levity occasionally ... I have no idea that is worth considering.

Ha, I just love your sense of humor! And your honesty.
To be honest, I’ve never read any commentary on these passages. My wife was raised in a very “conservative” church which held a very hard line on women. It never seemed to bother her, and my focus was elsewhere at the time. So, to be equally honest I’ve actually never dug very deep within this topic. However, I do know many arguments against women in the church.

I think what I would like to know is why Biblegateway has footnotes referring to husbands and wives. I don’t have strings readily available, but I would like to look at these words in a good lexicon. It does seem reasonable that this does pertain to husbands and wives, and not men and women in general. But I don’t know.

Im remodeling our bathroom at the moment, so I doubt I’ll have time to look into this tillMonday. Hopefully I don’t get caught up in any other drama that prevents me from following up.

Enjoy your weekend!

 

[JLB]

Women teachers can only try to explain things, and only repeat what they have heard.

Remember, in 1 Tim. 2:11-14 Paul gave his rationale for not allowing women to teach in the Church which comes directly from the fact that "the woman transgressed," not Adam. Within her uncorrupted nature, before sin had entered into her, she was entirely gullible to Satan's temptation. Today, her sinful daughters are even more gullible.

This is God's Word.

If it said what you claim, you would have posted the actual scripture. Instead you stated your opinion and tagged your opinion with a scripture reference.


Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. 1 Timothy 2:11-15


I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man...


This is actually what the scripture says, ie God’s word.


What you posted was not.


As it plainly says, Paul says he doesn’t allow women to teach or have authority over a man.


What is doesn’t say is — women are not allowed to teach in the Church.


Women can and do teach younger women, and children as well as other women.


But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.
Titus 2:1-5



Paul chose to establish rules in the Churches he raised up as he saw fit to do among the Gentiles in that day and time.



Other Apostles may have had a different approach based on the leading of the Spirit.



To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth, because of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father. 2 John 1-4



John refers to the elect lady and her (spiritual) children who she taught to walk in the truth.

This is a reference to a woman in an Apostolic or Pastoral role.




JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

Im remodeling our bathroom at the moment, so I doubt I’ll have time to look into this tillMonday. Hopefully I don’t get caught up in any other drama that prevents me from following up.

Enjoy your weekend!

My home was a fixer upper. 200 sheets of drywall. Making 4 bedrooms out of 2, etc. etc. If you remodel the bathroom, I suggest getting the 'tall' toilet. I think they are 17" instead of 15.5. Much more comfortable. We also got two bidets. They are GREAT. Don't want to get into details (smile), butt I only need toilet paper for drying. Cheap one is $30. We also got good one for $250 with heated seat and water.

I wouldn't worry too much about exegesis of 1 Timothy 2:11-15. It's not heavy on my WANT TO KNOW LIST. I have pondered about women wearing hats in church... again, not a biggy ... only one gal wears a hat in the conservative church I attend. Wife says she (that's my wife) does look good in a hat, so I don't go there (not that I care). I ponder if I would wear a hat if I was in their circumstance (probably not).

Have fun with the remodel....definitely get tall toilet if you are getting a new one.

 

[for_his_glory]

LOL... agreed ... that's why I used him in my example of someone that 'edifies' and 'encourages' others but IS NOT A PROPHET.


Agreed ... it's when you get into the nitty gritty that the definition becomes cloudy. For example, you said you are not a prophet, yet you fulfilled the definition we agreed upon. You "reveal the will of God" to someone in church I believe you said. So either you are a prophet or the definition needs fine tuning.
Aside: May be getting to point of where to dot the 'i's and cross the 't's ... not important

To me there is a difference of being a prophet or just some who gets a particular word from God to speak instruction to the church. I would not say I am a prophet, but just a vessel God works through. When I think of Prophets I think of all those in the OT like Daniel, Joel, Jeremiah etc. etc. that were given visions and end of days prophecy. Those from the time they were given has been revealed to others in revelations by the Holy Spirit to prepare us what to watch for before the Lord's return

(what's a bad pizza?)

bad anchovies

 

[for_his_glory]

Sounds like you have done some great stuff.

I really miss the Prison ministry. I use to go in on Thursdays and spend an hour with the men and an hour with the women and then those individuals on lockdown. They respected me and I respected them. The Pastor of the church we were going to at that time was the Chaplin and when he stepped down another church took over and basically kicked me out in order to put their people in there. One of the best experiences I will always treasure.

 

[for_his_glory]

I see you cannot describe the specific means of testing a spirit, but rather speak vague generalities.

God Bless your best response.

I think 1 John 4:1-6 is pretty much self explanatory.

Test the Spirits
1John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1John 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
1John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

 

[for_his_glory]

I doubt any such tearing could be done given the emotional fragility behind it. Lol. Remember, words are not action.

The Pentecostals who cannot replicate even one feature of Acts Ch.2 have thereby falsely labeled themselves. As such, their ideologies must be of the same low validity. Agreed? Pure logic, no need for emotional painting.

Blessings.

First I am not Pentecostal, second you can not judge that of what is between me and God, and third you need to drop the sarcasm as we are all getting tired of it. All you give are your opinions mixed with a scripture here or there, but yet you have nothing to back yourself up with except one verse. Many of us, including the men in here, have given you scriptures that you might go study them in the fulness of the word of God, but yet you reject the whole counsel of God on this issue. You claim to be a Christian, but you show no fruits of the Spirit.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I really miss the Prison ministry. I use to go in on Thursdays and spend an hour with the men and an hour with the women and then those individuals on lockdown. They respected me and I respected them. The Pastor of the church we were going to at that time was the Chaplin and when he stepped down another church took over and basically kicked me out in order to put their people in there. One of the best experiences I will always treasure.

I'm truly impressed and glad for you in that you had that rewarding experience. Very kewl.

 

[for_his_glory]

Women teachers can only try to explain things, and only repeat what they have heard.

Remember, in 1 Tim. 2:11-14 Paul gave his rationale for not allowing women to teach in the Church which comes directly from the fact that "the woman transgressed," not Adam. Within her uncorrupted nature, before sin had entered into her, she was entirely gullible to Satan's temptation. Today, her sinful daughters are even more gullible.

This is God's Word.

You might want to read Genesis 3:6 as Adam also transgressed against God and His instruction not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, as instead of telling Eve not to take of the fruit he also fell to the temptation and indulged in the eating of it after God told him not to.

 

[Jacob62]

If it said what you claim, you would have posted the actual scripture. Instead you stated your opinion and tagged your opinion with a scripture reference.


Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. 1 Timothy 2:11-15


I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man...


This is actually what the scripture says, ie God’s word.


What you posted was not.


As it plainly says, Paul says he doesn’t allow women to teach or have authority over a man.


What is doesn’t say is — women are not allowed to teach in the Church.


Women can and do teach younger women, and children as well as other women.


But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.
Titus 2:1-5



Paul chose to establish rules in the Churches he raised up as he saw fit to do among the Gentiles in that day and time.



Other Apostles may have had a different approach based on the leading of the Spirit.



To the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth, and not only I, but also all those who have known the truth, because of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:
Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. I rejoiced greatly that I have found some of your children walking in truth, as we received commandment from the Father. 2 John 1-4



John refers to the elect lady and her (spiritual) children who she taught to walk in the truth.

This is a reference to a woman in an Apostolic or Pastoral role.




JLB

Was Paul speaking the Word of God about women not teaching? Yes? No? Answer up with confidence in The Word, rather than with doubt.