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Animals Really Do Think Rationally

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Runner said:
There is much discussion about the distinction between "soul" and "spirit." There is a distinction, as Hebrews makes clear ("even to the division of soul and spirit"). Humans clearly "image" God and relate to him in a way animals don't. But I am 100% satisfied that animals have a spirit that survives death. Exactly how this works and whether all animals (and insects) survive is speculated upon in New Age-type literature, but I know of no Christian answer. I do trust my own experiences.
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Christians will give all kinds of answers (there are New Age Mystical Christians) but the real question is "What does the Bible say?"
 
As my wife says, this is my girlfriend lol!
She’s a purebred American Stafford.
She is very intelligent and affectionate. She is also extremely protective.1DCAE931-61A3-452D-90E0-944F66992832.jpeg
 
crossnote said:
Christians will give all kinds of answers (there are New Age Mystical Christians) but the real question is "What does the Bible say?"
Click to expand...
OK, here's pretty much everything the Bible says: https://www.openbible.info/topics/animals_having_a_soul.

At a minimum, it indicates animals have a spirit and there are animals in the afterlife. Do the math. I have no problem supplementing the Bible with my direct experience. I suppose I can find some "biblical principles" for cooking Tater Tots, but I also read the directions.
 
crossnote said:
Just out of curiosity, what is the point?
They don't have a spirit,
They weren't made in God's image,
Jesus did not die for their sins.

Yet, I agree, that some animals act more rationally than some people...

2Pe_2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jud_1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Click to expand...
Lighten up dude….
 
for_his_glory said:
Animals have the intelligence to respond to certain commands like the donkey that God used. Animals also have sense of danger, can be happy or sad with their emotions. They are very intelligent animals created by God.
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It’s amazing to watch my AmStaff around different people. She was a rescue from a puppy mill in Arkansas and little no no socialization with people and when I fist got her, she would go crazy trying to fight any dog she saw.

I’ve spent a tremendous amount of time with her and she no longer tries to attack every dog she sees. I’ve even taken her to the dog park on several occasions and she does very well.

As far as people, she feels safe on a leash when I take her to Home Depot, pet store or downtown for the car shows etc. some people she will let pet her, others not so much and she may even give them a growl and they quickly back off.

She is very much family cintrict which is to say if your in her inner circle, she’s the biggest wiggle butt you’ve ever seen and you wouldn’t think she has a mean bone in her body.

And this is where she gets interesting. I have two friends that come over and right from the start she accepts them into her inner circle with no hesitation. However, she’s not that way with other friends that come over.

It’s just very interesting watching her and how she responds differently with different people.

This picture was taken last winter…. I’m not awake yet.. it’s our morning routine! I drink my first cup of coffee and she snuggles.
B6CD9462-9CB6-487C-8EB3-55E43A74DA58.jpeg
 
stovebolts said:
It’s amazing to watch my AmStaff around different people. She was a rescue from a puppy mill in Arkansas and little no no socialization with people and when I fist got her, she would go crazy trying to fight any dog she saw.

I’ve spent a tremendous amount of time with her and she no longer tries to attack every dog she sees. I’ve even taken her to the dog park on several occasions and she does very well.

As far as people, she feels safe on a leash when I take her to Home Depot, pet store or downtown for the car shows etc. some people she will let pet her, others not so much and she may even give them a growl and they quickly back off.

She is very much family cintrict which is to say if your in her inner circle, she’s the biggest wiggle butt you’ve ever seen and you wouldn’t think she has a mean bone in her body.

And this is where she gets interesting. I have two friends that come over and right from the start she accepts them into her inner circle with no hesitation. However, she’s not that way with other friends that come over.

It’s just very interesting watching her and how she responds differently with different people.

This picture was taken last winter…. I’m not awake yet.. it’s our morning routine! I drink my first cup of coffee and she snuggles.
View attachment 14388
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She is adorable.
 
I'll share this weird little incident because I think it raises profound questions about even the lowliest of animals. As God is my witness, this is absolutely true.

I'd been puttering in my garage for a few minutes. It's an old single-car garage built from pine in 1940.

As I started for the open door, an inner voice said, very clearly, "Look in that box."

Below a shelf in my garage were six cardboard boxes. I knew what was in all of them.

The voice didn't say "Look in those boxes." It said, very specifically, "Look in that box."

I somehow knew it meant the General Motors box that held my air compressor. I mumbled, "I don't need to look in that box. I know what's in it. I use the compressor every month."

I took another step toward the door. "LOOK IN THAT BOX!!!" There was no doubt about this.

OK, OK, OK.

I looked in the box and saw my compressor. Lying next to it, surrounded by days' worth of his own feces, was an unusually large pink lizard.

He appeared to be dead. He was certainly comatose, which eliminates any skeptical argument that he'd been desperately scratching and I'd subliminally picked up on it.

I gingerly lifted him out - no sign of life - and placed him on the lawn in the shade of a bush. I sprinkled him with water and set a little bowl of water beside him. In about 15 minutes, he scampered away.

So:
  • Do comatose lizards nevertheless have telepathic abilities?
  • Do lizards have guardian angels?
  • Did my guardian angel alert me to rescue Mr. Lizard?
I'm not one of those who goes around claiming paranormal experiences where mundane explanations are more likely, but I have no mundane explanation for this. Both times, the inner voice was very clear, and the second time it was very urgent.
 
Runner said:
I'll share this weird little incident because I think it raises profound questions about even the lowliest of animals. As God is my witness, this is absolutely true.

I'd been puttering in my garage for a few minutes. It's an old single-car garage built from pine in 1940.

As I started for the open door, an inner voice said, very clearly, "Look in that box."

Below a shelf in my garage were six cardboard boxes. I knew what was in all of them.

The voice didn't say "Look in those boxes." It said, very specifically, "Look in that box."

I somehow knew it meant the General Motors box that held my air compressor. I mumbled, "I don't need to look in that box. I know what's in it. I use the compressor every month."

I took another step toward the door. "LOOK IN THAT BOX!!!" There was no doubt about this.

OK, OK, OK.

I looked in the box and saw my compressor. Lying next to it, surrounded by days' worth of his own feces, was an unusually large pink lizard.

He appeared to be dead. He was certainly comatose, which eliminates any skeptical argument that he'd been desperately scratching and I'd subliminally picked up on it.

I gingerly lifted him out - no sign of life - and placed him on the lawn in the shade of a bush. I sprinkled him with water and set a little bowl of water beside him. In about 15 minutes, he scampered away.

So:
  • Do comatose lizards nevertheless have telepathic abilities?
  • Do lizards have guardian angels?
  • Did my guardian angel alert me to rescue Mr. Lizard?
I'm not one of those who goes around claiming paranormal experiences where mundane explanations are more likely, but I have no mundane explanation for this. Both times, the inner voice was very clear, and the second time it was very urgent.
Click to expand...
Do you believe this was the voice of the lizard, or that it was the voice of God directing you to one of his creatures being in distress.
 
for_his_glory said:
Do you believe this was the voice of the lizard, or that it was the voice of God directing you to one of his creatures being in distress.
Click to expand...
The latter, or at least an angel. This was clearly a voice in English. To think it was the lizard would be stretching my belief in animal rationality past the breaking point! :)
 
Runner said:
OK, here's pretty much everything the Bible says: https://www.openbible.info/topics/animals_having_a_soul.
Click to expand...
I looked through that link and not one text mentioned animals having a soul.

Runner said:
At a minimum, it indicates animals have a spirit and there are animals in the afterlife. Do the math. I have no problem supplementing the Bible with my direct experience. I suppose I can find some "biblical principles" for cooking Tater Tots, but I also read the directions.
Click to expand...
Tater Tots aren't in the same realm as 'souls', 'spirits' and the 'angelic', we ought to go to God's Word for that.

Since I have been told to 'lighten up' by the owner of this forum, I will leave this rational animal discussion alone. Bye.
 
I think the question of animals having souls can sometimes raise questions in the minds of some about the ethicality of eating meat. If I had to deal with my conscience bothering me about eating tater tots, I'd be a troubled soul indeed.


7e92cf6130ce1ab1e3b0920d08c39d9fe5c7cd5086673f97717a869c8ca0b295.jpg
 
Runner said:
I'll share this weird little incident because I think it raises profound questions about even the lowliest of animals. As God is my witness, this is absolutely true.

I'd been puttering in my garage for a few minutes. It's an old single-car garage built from pine in 1940.

As I started for the open door, an inner voice said, very clearly, "Look in that box."

Below a shelf in my garage were six cardboard boxes. I knew what was in all of them.

The voice didn't say "Look in those boxes." It said, very specifically, "Look in that box."

I somehow knew it meant the General Motors box that held my air compressor. I mumbled, "I don't need to look in that box. I know what's in it. I use the compressor every month."

I took another step toward the door. "LOOK IN THAT BOX!!!" There was no doubt about this.

OK, OK, OK.

I looked in the box and saw my compressor. Lying next to it, surrounded by days' worth of his own feces, was an unusually large pink lizard.

He appeared to be dead. He was certainly comatose, which eliminates any skeptical argument that he'd been desperately scratching and I'd subliminally picked up on it.

I gingerly lifted him out - no sign of life - and placed him on the lawn in the shade of a bush. I sprinkled him with water and set a little bowl of water beside him. In about 15 minutes, he scampered away.

So:
  • Do comatose lizards nevertheless have telepathic abilities?
  • Do lizards have guardian angels?
  • Did my guardian angel alert me to rescue Mr. Lizard?
I'm not one of those who goes around claiming paranormal experiences where mundane explanations are more likely, but I have no mundane explanation for this. Both times, the inner voice was very clear, and the second time it was very urgent.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what it all means, but I believe the story.

Maybe it belonged to some little girl or boy who was praying his lungs out for it, you never know. God answers prayer, even if it's about a lizard.

One of the first - actually THEE first - prayer I prayed was for a little cairn terrier my folks got me when I was a little boy. I was out throwing the ball for him, and then I got the bright idea that I would hit it with the bat so it would go farther and he could run and chase it. The part I didn't account for is that he hadn't gotten the memo yet, and when I tossed it in the air, he jumped up to catch it in his teeth just as the bat made contact with the ball. He was out like a light and I was terrified. My dad took him to the vet, and I remember praying on the couch to God to let him live. I didn't know if God was real because I wasn't raised Christian, but in another hour or so they came home and he came running through the door, as good as ever, LoL.

I think God hears the prayers of children, especially when they are spoken with tears, and how many children have prayed for their pets? Reminds me of a heaven account where the person who was taken up in spirit saw a little girl who had just died being reunited with a little dog she loved.

If I had to venture a guess on the reason for God speaking to you, that would likely be it.
 
crossnote said:
Just out of curiosity, what is the point?
They don't have a spirit,
They weren't made in God's image,
Jesus did not die for their sins.

Yet, I agree, that some animals act more rationally than some people...

2Pe_2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Jud_1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Click to expand...

Brother how short sighted can you be? *personally* I think that animals do have a spirit, all animals which breath, wherein is the breath of Life.

Animals are everything you said they are, and are not created in the image of God, however, they are a lot more than that if you pay attention.

I've been around animals a lot in my life. Owned them, farm stock and horses and stuff, dogs, hunted them and ate them, and trained them. Well, dogs, lol.

But I've seen animals act inyelligent and even act like they understand every word I was saying. And after reading about the donkey talking in scripture, it occured to me that...it may be possible that a lot of animals can fully understand what people say, and of course body language (which is only about 85-90% of communication, lol) , the thing is that they just have not been given to be able to articulate human speech. Except in very limited cases like parrots and so forth.

I think most dogs are smarter than people think they are. They know all those key words, walk, vet, bath, eat, food, outside, potty. Have you ever had a dog argue with you? I have. Oh they can't speak english but they know how to communicate and argue, lol.

I seen a horse be protective of it's owner once and almost trample a guy who was fooling around with his friend (who owned the horse) rather roughly and the horse didn't like it! He barely made it over that fence! That horse came after that guy!
 
stovebolts said:
I have two friends that come over and right from the start she accepts them into her inner circle with no hesitation. However, she’s not that way with other friends that come over.
Click to expand...

I hear you Brother! My English Mastiff growled at a long time friend of mine when he got to meet him first time. My Mastiff was almost always silent and chill. He rarly made moise, growling or barking and when he did, it was always something that he did not like, or somethng he really wanted a lot. . I never looked at that friend of mine the same since. Dogs can sense when a person is untrustworthy.
 
Edward said:
I hear you Brother! My English Mastiff growled at a long time friend of mine when he got to meet him first time. My Mastiff was almost always silent and chill. He rarly made moise, growling or barking and when he did, it was always something that he did not like, or somethng he really wanted a lot. . I never looked at that friend of mine the same since. Dogs can sense when a person is untrustworthy.
Click to expand...
First of all, wow, an English Mastiff. Beautiful dog!
Many, many moons ago I owned a Shepherd / Wolf hybrid that was one of the best dog's I ever owned. Aside from my current AmStaff (American Staffordshire) I can't say I've ever been as connected to an animal. His name was JR and at the time I purchased him as a guard dog. I lived in a rough neighborhood, and I was tired of my garage getting broken into and my tools stolen. I was also in a time of transition in my life where i was dropping acquaintances and adjusting my lifestyle. Honestly, I didn't trust my own judgment, but I noticed that my dog did not like certain people, and other people he liked right away so I started letting my dog pick my friends. This method was affirmed one day sitting out on the front yard in the grass and a car pulled up and a man got out of his car and started walking up to us. My dog didn't even flinch and barely raised his head. It was our preacher.

As far as my AmStaff, she was neglected and under socialized, so I don't take her judgment at face value. We have close friends that escaped the Amish and the wife is afraid of our dog and our dog senses it. I know my dog's bark and if she bites, it will be out of fear. When you have a person in fear of a dog and a dog in fear of a person, it's a recipe for something bad to happen. Anyway, my Amstaff will raise her hair and her bark is high pitched. It means, "Are you friendly... I don't know yet but I don't fully trust you and I'm kinda afraid of you". Then comes the second type of bark which is deeper and it means, "I don't trust you and I'm afraid of not knowing what you're up to. You need to leave, and you need to leave now". It's this bark that will get you bit.

Of course, I found out that if I greet our guests with a big smile and a big hug, it eases our AmStaff right away. Her hair settles down and her butt starts to wiggle and her head bobs. Give it two or three minutes and she is calm and relaxed, and the drama is over.

They say a dog wagging its tail is not an indication that it's friendly. This is true. Never trust a dog just because it's tail is wagging. You've got to look at the rest of the body. If the butt and chest is wagging with the tail even moderately, then you've got a friendly dog. if just the tail is wagging and the hips or chest remain stationary, don't trust it.
 
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Runner said:
The latter, or at least an angel. This was clearly a voice in English. To think it was the lizard would be stretching my belief in animal rationality past the breaking point! :)
Click to expand...
Thank you for clearing that up.
 
stovebolts said:
First of all, wow, an English Mastiff. Beautiful dog!
Many, many moons ago I owned a Shepherd / Wolf hybrid that was one of the best dog's I ever owned. Aside from my current AmStaff (American Staffordshire) I can't say I've ever been as connected to an animal. His name was JR and at the time I purchased him as a guard dog. I lived in a rough neighborhood, and I was tired of my garage getting broken into and my tools stolen. I was also in a time of transition in my life where i was dropping acquaintances and adjusting my lifestyle. Honestly, I didn't trust my own judgment, but I noticed that my dog did not like certain people, and other people he liked right away so I started letting my dog pick my friends. This method was affirmed one day sitting out on the front yard in the grass and a car pulled up and a man got out of his car and started walking up to us. My dog didn't even flinch and barely raised his head. It was our preacher.

As far as my AmStaff, she was neglected and under socialized, so I don't take her judgment at face value. We have close friends that escaped the Amish and the wife is afraid of our dog and our dog senses it. I know my dog's bark and if she bites, it will be out of fear. When you have a person in fear of a dog and a dog in fear of a person, it's a recipe for something bad to happen. Anyway, my Amstaff will raise her hair and her bark is high pitched. It means, "Are you friendly... I don't know yet but I don't fully trust you and I'm kinda afraid of you". Then comes the second type of bark which is deeper and it means, "I don't trust you and I'm afraid of not knowing what you're up to. You need to leave, and you need to leave now". It's this bark that will get you bit.

Of course, I found out that if I greet our guests with a big smile and a big hug, it eases our AmStaff right away. Her hair settles down and her butt starts to wiggle and her head bobs. Give it two or three minutes and she is calm and relaxed, and the drama is over.

They say a dog wagging its tail is not an indication that it's friendly. This is true. Never trust a dog just because it's tail is wagging. You've got to look at the rest of the body. If the butt and chest is wagging with the tail even moderately, then you've got a friendly dog. if just the tail is wagging and the hips or chest remain stationary, don't trust it.
Click to expand...

Well, my Mastiff developed some sort of kidney problems and went to be with the Lord. But Thor was perhaps the best dog I ever owned.
 

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stovebolts said:
You can’t beat a good dog!
Mine is still under 3 so we’ve got many years ahead of us. It’s going to be a sad day when she passes.

View attachment 14404
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That's a good looking dog. I still don't have another dog again. I've been looking too. Here's a pic of the Lab/Shepard mix we had when the kids were toddlers. Bear would hang out with his buddies when they were sent to Time Out for infractions, Lol, and wouldn't let them do their time alone. So I got the idea to do the same thing to him when he was bad...worked good!
1657708150792.jpeg
Bear was just like a kid in the corner. He'd sit with his nose against the wall for awhile, then he'd peek around to see who's watching...get your nose back in that corner! Lol.
 
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