1 Thess 5:4-10 teaches eternal security

[Chopper]

I believe that this is what the Scripture 1 Thess. 5:7 is speaking to.
1Thessalonians 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yet, nothing at all about loss of salvation. Please don't insert into Scripture what isn't there.

Severed from Christ... sorry there is only one way to the Father, and no one gets there apart from Christ.

Consider these clear verses:
Eph 1:13,14 - 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

and…John 14:16 - “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

How can anyone claim that one who has believed and sealed with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption, which is a PLEDGE or promise from God will lose their salvation????

Every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit, who Jesus said would be with us FOREVER. And the seal is God's pledge FOR the day of redemption.

No discussion of what "sealed," actually means? In the historical context, you would seal documents for legal purposes, this way if the seal was broken the document would be void because it would be considered altered.

The Holy Spirit is the one who has done the "sealing," and we are warned for this reason not to grieve the Holy Spirit.

"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30 (ESV)

Which is why other texts about falling away talk about the Holy Spirit.

How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29 (ESV)

The punishment, which is worse than the one noted for breaking the Mosaic Covenant, is said to be deserved for the following reasons.

1) Trampled underfoot the Son of God.
2) Profaned the blood of the Covenant, by which he was sanctified (this person received sanctification).
3) Outraged the Spirit.of grace.

This seems quite clear to me.

Not to forget that eternal life is a gift and God's gifts are irrevocable.

Yes they will not be revoked from Christ, and when we are his, all that belongs to him belongs to us. If we are cut off, then we lose the blessings bestowed by this union.

The issue is settled. Salvation cannot be lost. Or God doesn't keep His promise.

God keeps his promises, but they only have their yes and amen in Jesus, there is no hope of salvation apart from union with him.

"For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory." 2 Corinthians 1:20 (ESV)

Your view ignores or discounts or rejects the clear principle of the fact that one who has believed in Christ has been sealed as a promise from God with the Holy Spirit FOR the day of redemption. How is this not clear?

I just addressed this, please see above.

Please provide Scriptural evidence for your opinion.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places," Ephesians 1:3 (ESV)

Every spiritual blessing is ours, IN Christ, we only share in these blessings if we are in Him.

The error here is thinking that union with Christ can be broken. Consider Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5.

Indeed it can, Jesus teaches perhaps the clearest on the matter.

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned." John 15:1-6 (ESV)

Those branches, followers of Christ, that do not bear fruit are thrown away and gathered to be thrown into the fire and burned. Pretty strong language right there. This surely isn't discipline, as it is being cut off from Christ and disciplined is characterized by being pruned.

Actually, a pretty good analogy. Yes, the player misses the super bowl, which is analogous, not to salvation, but to rewards and blessings. However, the player is STILL a member of the team, right?

They were cut from the team, therefore they don't go to the Superbowl. You only get to the Superbowl, if you are on the team. You only get to the Kingdom, if you are united with Christ.

If you're a branch that is removed from the vine, Jesus is pretty clear what happens to you. Thrown into the fire and burned.

Heb 10 and 12.

Where in these texts, I already indicated in Hebrews 10 that it was referring to loss of salvation. Where does it specifically use the word for "wrath," and say that this is for discipline?

 

[FreeGrace]

Severed from Christ... sorry there is only one way to the Father, and no one gets there apart from Christ.

Nothing to be sorry for. Yes, there is only one way to the Father, which is by Christ. But you seem to ignore that eternal life is given to those who believe (Jn 3:15,16, 6:40), WHEN they believe (Jn 5:24) and the gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

No discussion of what "sealed," actually means? In the historical context, you would seal documents for legal purposes, this way if the seal was broken the document would be void because it would be considered altered.

The text is quite clear: the "seal" IS the Holy Spirit, who is given to those who believe, WHEN they believe (Eph 1:13,14). The Holy Spirit cannot be broken in any sense. And God gave the Holy Spirit as a promise or pledge FOR the day of redemption. That is crystal clear.

The Holy Spirit is the one who has done the "sealing," and we are warned for this reason not to grieve the Holy Spirit.

No. The seal IS the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13,14 says so.

Yes they will not be revoked from Christ, and when we are his, all that belongs to him belongs to us. If we are cut off, then we lose the blessings bestowed by this union.

Yes, we lose the blessings, but not salvation, which is a gift from God (Eph 2:8) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

God keeps his promises, but they only have their yes and amen in Jesus, there is no hope of salvation apart from union with him.

And that union cannot be broken. The Holy Spirit was given to believers as a promise FOR the day of redemption.

They were cut from the team, therefore they don't go to the Superbowl. You only get to the Superbowl, if you are on the team. You only get to the Kingdom, if you are united with Christ.

Now you've "moved the goalposts". Your analogy was only that a team member was arrested and didn't get to the super bowl. . Now you're saying that he was fired. You've changed your analogy. Many players have been arrested and yet are still on the team. So your new analogy fails.

If you're a branch that is removed from the vine, Jesus is pretty clear what happens to you. Thrown into the fire and burned.

It was figurative speech, from an agricultural background. His point was about branches that are no longer useful. No one goes to hell for being "unuseful". They go there for not having eternal life.

Where in these texts, I already indicated in Hebrews 10 that it was referring to loss of salvation.

You haven't established that from the text.

Where does it specifically use the word for "wrath," and say that this is for discipline?

Heb 10:30-31
30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Who are "His people"? Believers. And what does "judge" mean? To hold accountable. And Heb 12:6 is what that judgment leads to: For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.”

The Greek word for 'scourge' means to "skin alive with a whip". That's what scourging meant when it was written. The Romans were experts at scourging. Obviously, the writer was writing figuratively, not literally.

Now, consider these verses:
Eph 5:6 - Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

I suppose you'll say that "sons of disobedience" here refers to unbelievers, but the context is clearly believers. And all believers who are disobedient or rebellious are still sons.

And there are no verses about a child of God becoming an un-child of God.

Once a child, always a child.
Once saved, always saved.
Once given eternal life, it is irrevocable.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Nothing to be sorry for. Yes, there is only one way to the Father, which is by Christ. But you seem to ignore that eternal life is given to those who believe (Jn 3:15,16, 6:40), WHEN they believe (Jn 5:24) and the gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

I don't ignore this, I already dealt with this.

• Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.

The text is quite clear: the "seal" IS the Holy Spirit, who is given to those who believe, WHEN they believe (Eph 1:13,14). The Holy Spirit cannot be broken in any sense. And God gave the Holy Spirit as a promise or pledge FOR the day of redemption. That is crystal clear.

The "pledge," you mentioned actually comes from the Greek word "arrhabṓn" which means receiving payment in advance of a fuller payment to come in the future. Basically a "down payment," of the future kingdom. This isn't to say that it guarantees that a person receives the full payment, but rather they have received part of it in the present.

Yes, we lose the blessings, but not salvation, which is a gift from God (Eph 2:8) that is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Please see this:

• Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.

And that union cannot be broken. The Holy Spirit was given to believers as a promise FOR the day of redemption.

As a down payment, not a promise, that's not what the text means.

Now you've "moved the goalposts". Your analogy was only that a team member was arrested and didn't get to the super bowl. . Now you're saying that he was fired. You've changed your analogy. Many players have been arrested and yet are still on the team. So your new analogy fails.

Apparently you didn't properly read my first analogy, no goal posts have been moved.

"Here is an analogy for you. Say that you're a football player, and you're on the Seattle Seahawks and your team is going to go to the Super Bowl. Yet, your broke a law and are cut from the team right before the big game, even though you were told that you were going to the Super Bowl, it was contingent on the fact that you were part of the team."

Nothing was changed.

You haven't established that from the text.

That's a nice assertion, I however actually did establish that from the text, you haven't demonstrated that I was wrong.

Heb 10:30-31
30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Let's see if this understanding holds water.

"Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?" Hebrews 10:28-29 (ESV)

First, you didn't reference the substance of the text that actually indicates the severity of the punishment, but jumped ahead to Hebrews 12.

Let's take a look at the author's logic. He alludes to the severity of breaking the Mosaic Law, which was death without mercy, then he on this basis asks the question, "how much worse punishment do you think [the person who did all these things will receive?" Your answer is, "scourging?" As if that is worse than being put to death?

This logic completely does not fit with the context, which is why I urge you and the other readers to ignore such logic.

Who are "His people"? Believers. And what does "judge" mean? To hold accountable. And Heb 12:6 is what that judgment leads to: For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.”

This is worse than being put to death how?

The Greek word for 'scourge' means to "skin alive with a whip". That's what scourging meant when it was written. The Romans were experts at scourging. Obviously, the writer was writing figuratively, not literally.

The believer isn't literally skinned alive, but the analogy of flogging is used to denote a severe but temporal punishment that is meant to discipline the believer.

Now, consider these verses:
Eph 5:6 - Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

I suppose you'll say that "sons of disobedience" here refers to unbelievers, but the context is clearly believers. And all believers who are disobedient or rebellious are still sons.

I think the sons of disobedience are those who are those who practice the things listed in Ephesians 5:5. You still haven't supplied a reference to a text that references the word "wrath," that explicitly implies only discipline.

And there are no verses about a child of God becoming an un-child of God.

Did I assert that there was? I make arguments from the text, and attempt to reveal the consistent message of Scripture.

 

[Gregg]

I said that the "being alive," was a possible interpretation, indeed I offered it as the second option.

See here:
"It could mean that they are asleep, as in unprepared and inattentive to the signs of Jesus' coming. This would make sense as the daytime and nighttime distinction isn't a righteousness vs wickedness distinction, but rather attentiveness vs inattentiveness distinction. Such a person inattentive to the signs of Jesus coming, will certainly be saved if they are a believer. However, to leap to the idea that they are completely living as an unbeliever with a life of sin, that they would still be saved is too far."

Yes you said "possible interpretation", so I provided a proof that it is not a possible interpretation, and so removed it from consideration.

You're over defining the word, certainly this word can denote the idea of vigilance, and more likely does. However, it could just mean awake, as it does in other contexts. I personally subscribe to the first interpretation given, but many see it as alive vs dead.

I gave good reason why it does not refer to alive and dead, and so removed it from consideration.

I agree, however, Freegrace is arguing that the asleep people aren't just less diligent, but rather they are living as unbelievers, sinful carnal Christians. That is what I am refuting.

FreeGrace is correct in his interpretation. Paul is not addressing unbelievers in 1 Thes 5 as he calls them "brothers" and "sons of light" in 1Thes 5:1,4,5,14,25. He addresses them as "we" in 1Thes 5:6, 8, giving them the same standing as Paul has before the LORD - they are born from above believers. Paul then says that the LORD "has not appointed us to wrath" (1Thes 5:9). He says "be at peace among yourselves" (1Thes 5:13), an admonition that he would not give for Christians to be at peace with non-believers.

Paul is clearly not addressing unbelievers, but is comparing Christians who are awake [watchful, diligent] and asleep [slothful, not expecting the LORD's return, perhaps causing divisions among the brothers].

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't ignore this, I already dealt with this.

I don't recall that you did deal with Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29. As I recall, you dismissed it.

• Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.

• The point is valid and refutes the non-OSAS view.

The "pledge," you mentioned actually comes from the Greek word "arrhabṓn" which means receiving payment in advance of a fuller payment to come in the future. Basically a "down payment," of the future kingdom. This isn't to say that it guarantees that a person receives the full payment, but rather they have received part of it in the present.

Except it is God's actual promise. For what? For the day of redemption. That is very clear.

Please see this:

• Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.

• I will keep reminding anyone of what God's word says.

As a down payment, not a promise, that's not what the text means.

Here is the Greek for "promise" ini Eph 1:14
epaggelia
1) announcement
2) promise
2a) the act of promising, a promise given or to be given\
2b) a promised good or blessing[/QUOTE]
So, I disagree with your opinion. It surey does mean a promise. And since God's gifts are irrevocable, my view is supported from Scripture, unlike your view.

Apparently you didn't properly read my first analogy, no goal posts have been moved.

"Here is an analogy for you. Say that you're a football player, and you're on the Seattle Seahawks and your team is going to go to the Super Bowl. Yet, your broke a law and are cut from the team right before the big game, even though you were told that you were going to the Super Bowl, it was contingent on the fact that you were part of the team."

Nothing was changed.

OK, I missed that. So I still disagree with your analogy. There are NO verses that say that any believer can be "cut from the team". And, btw, God's gifts are irrevocable.

"Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?" Hebrews 10:28-29 (ESV)

So, where's the mention of loss of salvation here?

First, you didn't reference the substance of the text that actually indicates the severity of the punishment, but jumped ahead to Hebrews 12.

Because Heb 12:6 explains Heb 10:30-31.

Let's take a look at the author's logic. He alludes to the severity of breaking the Mosaic Law, which was death without mercy, then he on this basis asks the question, "how much worse punishment do you think [the person who did all these things will receive?" Your answer is, "scourging?" As if that is worse than being put to death?

For the believer, physical death brings the believer to the Lord, face to face. Scourging is much worse than that.

This logic completely does not fit with the context, which is why I urge you and the other readers to ignore such logic.

your so-called logic is refuted by the fact that God's gifts, which include eternal life, are irrevocable. I know you don't like being reminded, but it is the Word of God.

I think the sons of disobedience are those who are those who practice the things listed in Ephesians 5:5. You still haven't supplied a reference to a text that references the word "wrath," that explicitly implies only discipline.

The context indicates believers doing those things.

Did I assert that there was? I make arguments from the text, and attempt to reveal the consistent message of Scripture.

If you did, how come there are no verses that say that salvation can be lost?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I don't recall that you did deal with Rom 6:23 with Rom 11:29. As I recall, you dismissed it.

This is a misrepresentation, I will show you below where I addressed it. No dismissal was made.

Romans 6:23, let's take a look at it.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23 (ESV)

This is why I call it Eternal Security in Christ, because that is the way Paul phrases it. That the free gift of God isn't just eternal life, eternal life is in Christ. He who has the Son has life. A person shares in this gift so long as they are in Christ. It is dependent on their union with him, as the newness of life and being alive to God can only be experienced when one is in union with Christ. If one is then cut off from Christ then they lose the Covenant blessings they enjoyed when they were in union with him.

Here is an analogy for you. Say that you're a football player, and you're on the Seattle Seahawks and your team is going to go to the Super Bowl. Yet, your broke a law and are cut from the team right before the big game, even though you were told that you were going to the Super Bowl, it was contingent on the fact that you were part of the team.

The gifts and blessings are all given to Christ and the Father will never revoke these blessings, however we will only possess them so long as we are in Him." Post #33

Except it is God's actual promise. For what? For the day of redemption. That is very clear.

That's not what the Greek means, as I already demonstrated. You can continue to believe this if you so desire.

Here is the Greek for "promise" ini Eph 1:14
epaggelia
1) announcement
2) promise
2a) the act of promising, a promise given or to be given\
2b) a promised good or blessing
So, I disagree with your opinion. It surey does mean a promise. And since God's gifts are irrevocable, my view is supported from Scripture, unlike your view.

This Greek word isn't contained in the Ephesians 1:14, so you just refuted yourself.

"ὅς ἐστιν ἀρραβὼν τῆς κληρονομίας ἡμῶν, εἰς ἀπολύτρωσιν τῆς περιποιήσεως, εἰς ἔπαινον τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ." Ephesians 1:14 (GNT)

The bolded word is arrhabṓn, which is the word I appealed to previously and means a "down payment."

OK, I missed that. So I still disagree with your analogy. There are NO verses that say that any believer can be "cut from the team". And, btw, God's gifts are irrevocable.

It does say you can be cut off from the Olive Tree, and cut off from the vine. See Romans 11 and John 15

So, where's the mention of loss of salvation here?

1) The Author's logic dictates that the punishment is worse than death, which was promised for breaking the Old Covenant.
2) A sacrifice for sins no longer remains according to Hebrews 10:26
3) What remains is a fearful expectation of judgment and a fire that will consume the adversaries according to Hebrews 10:27.

Because Heb 12:6 explains Heb 10:30-31.

Please elaborate, I do remember you saying earlier:

The immediate context as more influence than a passage not so immediate.

Do you retract this statement?

For the believer, physical death brings the believer to the Lord, face to face. Scourging is much worse than that.

Not in the Old Testament when a person is cut off from the Covenant people and killed. That isn't speaking in the context of a believer, rather they are to expect the fire that will consume the adversaries. Much like Jesus' teaching that they are cut off thrown aside and burned.

The context indicates believers doing those things.

Please elaborate, he mentions that believers should not be doing these things, because the wrath of God is coming on behalf of those things.

If you did, how come there are no verses that say that salvation can be lost?

Thank you for presenting your opinion again. Repeated assertions will be no longer be responded to.

 

[chessman]

If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned." John 15:1-6 (ESV)

Those branches, followers of Christ, that do not bear fruit are thrown away and gathered to be thrown into the fire and burned. Pretty strong language right there.

Do you tell a new convert to Christianity that he/she must produce fruit (convert other Nonbelievers) in order to remain saved? Maybe even someone on their death bed. If so, how many converted fruit must they produce?

If not, why not since you think this passage is about loss of salvation?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yes you said "possible interpretation", so I provided a proof that it is not a possible interpretation, and so removed it from consideration.

I disagree that you provided proof, as I indicated that the word could mean awake, but could denote being vigilant, but that's not the case for every usage of this word.

I think that's basically irrelevant now, as that is not the position I would personally defend, though many scholars hold that to be correct.

FreeGrace is correct in his interpretation. Paul is not addressing unbelievers in 1 Thes 5 as he calls them "brothers" and "sons of light" in 1Thes 5:1,4,5,14,25. He addresses them as "we" in 1Thes 5:6, 8, giving them the same standing as Paul has before the LORD - they are born from above believers. Paul then says that the LORD "has not appointed us to wrath" (1Thes 5:9). He says "be at peace among yourselves" (1Thes 5:13), an admonition that he would not give for Christians to be at peace with non-believers.

Paul is clearly not addressing unbelievers, but is comparing Christians who are awake [watchful, diligent] and asleep [slothful, not expecting the LORD's return, perhaps causing divisions among the brothers].

Actually it would appear you agree with my interpretation, as Free Grace is using this verse as justification that a believer can live however they want and still be saved. You and I see the distinction between being slothful and unprepared vs vigilant and prepared with regards to the Lord's coming.

He says that the night and being asleep represents being like unbelievers, yet by your words you cannot agree to that, as you don't think it represents as strong a position as FreeGrace's.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Do you tell a new convert to Christianity that he/she must produce fruit (convert other Nonbelievers) in order to remain saved?

Sanctification is a process, and fruit will come with each Christian if God is truly at work in them. Faith without works is dead, and cannot save.
I certainly don't tell them that they can just sit there and do nothing. God's grace isn't just to save people, it is to transform them into the image of His Son.

Maybe even someone on their death bed.

I wouldn't say that to a death bed conversion, Jesus forgave the man on the cross right before he died.

If so, how many converted fruit much they produce?

Can you say this another way, I think you mixed up your words a little, or is it just me?

Are you saying, "how much converted fruit must they produce?"

I would say, if they are walking with Jesus, repenting and confessing sin and doing their best to live a life of love through faith then they have nothing to fear. If a person is far away from Jesus, and yet has assurance of salvation, then this is hugely unbiblical. Would you agree?

 

[chessman]

Can you say this another way, I think you mixed up your words a little, or is it just me?

Are you saying, "how much converted fruit must they produce?"

I would say, if they are walking with Jesus, repenting and confessing sin and doing their best to live a life of love through faith then they have nothing to fear. If a person is far away from Jesus, and yet has assurance of salvation, then this is hugely unbiblical. Would you agree?

Yes, i fixed the typo.
Yes, I agree with the rest of what you said there as well. As I do a very high percentage of your other posts.

Frankly, i've never understood why so much emotion around the OSAS topic from either side. I can't imagine ever (not ever) unbelieving in Him myself. So I really not worry about it much.

But I've never thought I had a quote of fruit to produce either. If I did, I'd be scared of loosing my salvation. Thus, my question to you.

Which is the flip-side problem of the 'sin all you want, cause you can't loose salvation' argument, of course. Teaching requirements post-believing in Him to maintain or access salvation is a slippery slope which the Bible warns of too!

Maybe you see my point with using John 15:1-6 for a de-salvation passage though????

 

[FreeGrace]

This is a misrepresentation, I will show you below where I addressed it. No dismissal was made.

Romans 6:23, let's take a look at it.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23 (ESV)

This is why I call it Eternal Security in Christ, because that is the way Paul phrases it. That the free gift of God isn't just eternal life, eternal life is in Christ. He who has the Son has life. A person shares in this gift so long as they are in Christ. It is dependent on their union with him, as the newness of life and being alive to God can only be experienced when one is in union with Christ. If one is then cut off from Christ then they lose the Covenant blessings they enjoyed when they were in union with him.

Here is an analogy for you. Say that you're a football player, and you're on the Seattle Seahawks and your team is going to go to the Super Bowl. Yet, your broke a law and are cut from the team right before the big game, even though you were told that you were going to the Super Bowl, it was contingent on the fact that you were part of the team.

The gifts and blessings are all given to Christ and the Father will never revoke these blessings, however we will only possess them so long as we are in Him." Post #33

OK, thanks for the reminder. And I refuted your opinion by showing from Scripture that all believers are placed into union with Christ by the sealing of the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption. Remember?

You didn't show any verse that says that God removes the Holy Spirit from believers, and Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be with us (believers) forever. I know what David prayed in Psa 53, but the indwelling Holy Spirit was not given to all OT believers. In fact, it wasn't until the Day of Pentecost that the Holy Spirit began to indwell all believers.

So, union with Christ is permanent, and you've not shown otherwise. Again, God's gifts are irrevocable. I will continue to remind you of that fact.

Do you retract this statement?

No.

Thank you for presenting your opinion again. Repeated assertions will be no longer be responded to.

Why do you call the fact that eternal life is a gift and God's gifts are irrevocable is an opinion? It is fact.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yes, i fixed the typo.
Yes, I agree with the rest of what you said there as well. As I do a very high percentage of your other posts.

Good to hear.

Same here!

Frankly, i've never understood why so much emotion around the OSAS topic from either side. I can't imagine ever (not ever) unbelieving in Him myself. So I really not worry about it much.

I don't have a problem with OSAS, I do have a problem with Hypergrace teachings, that say a person can live however they please and still be saved. Which is why I am posting in this thread so much.

But I've never thought I had a quote of fruit to produce either. If I did, I'd be scared of loosing my salvation. Thus, my question to you.

Indeed, I think the parable of the talents has bearing here.

"He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ Matthew 25:24-30 (ESV)

They had only one talent and chose to hide it, and in this parable he had it taken away and was cast into outer darkness. Definitely a good representation that we should all take note of.

Maybe you see my point with using John 15:1-6 for a de-salvation passage though????

I still think it's a "de-salvation," passage, but I understand it like I do the Parable of the Tenants. There isn't a quota for fruit, and we have different expectations based upon our abilities and there will also be different rewards. However, a person who produces zero fruit will be cut off according to this text. Such a person is simply not having faith, as true faith produces works.

 

[FreeGrace]

Free Grace is using this verse as justification that a believer can live however they want and still be saved.

I wish you'd include the entire view. Those who do live "however they want" will be subject to God's judgment; including loss of blessings in time, and loss of rewards eternally.

Consider the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5. What did Paul say? That man was turned over to Satan "for the destruction of the flesh". How minimal does that sound to you? Just read Job 1 and 2 to see what Satan is capable of. That's what discipline in time may consist of; being turned over to Satan. Not real pretty.

Please don't minimize my view as you've done.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

OK, thanks for the reminder. And I refuted your opinion by showing from Scripture that all believers are placed into union with Christ by the sealing of the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption. Remember?

You didn't show any verse that says that God removes the Holy Spirit from believers, and Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would be with us (believers) forever. I know what David prayed in Psa 53, but the indwelling Holy Spirit was not given to all OT believers. In fact, it wasn't until the Day of Pentecost that the Holy Spirit began to indwell all believers.

So, union with Christ is permanent, and you've not shown otherwise. Again, God's gifts are irrevocable. I will continue to remind you of that fact.


No.


Why do you call the fact that eternal life is a gift and God's gifts are irrevocable is an opinion? It is fact.

I understand that it is your opinion that you think you have refuted me, but I have responded to your arguments and readers can decide for themselves who was most true to the Scriptures.

At this point we are pretty much going in circles, and as there is no real new content to respond to I think I will conclude here.

Thanks for discussing this important issue with me.

 

[FreeGrace]

I understand that it is your opinion that you think you have refuted me, but I have responded to your arguments and readers can decide for themselves who was most true to the Scriptures.

At this point we are pretty much going in circles, and as there is no real new content to respond to I think I will conclude here.

Thanks for discussing this important issue with me.

You're welcome. But I still don't know how you dodge Rom 5:16, 6:23, Eph 2:8 in regards to Rom 11:29.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

You're welcome. But I still don't know how you dodge Rom 5:16, 6:23, Eph 2:8 in regards to Rom 11:29.

I dodge nothing, I responded and showed you where I responded in post #33. Please do not make false claims about what I did and did not address.

You do not agree with my response. That's fine, I welcome people to disagree with me, just don't make claims that I am hiding from some part of your argument when I have not.

Have a nice day.

 

[Chopper]

Good to hear.


Romans 6:23, let's take a look at it.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23 (ESV)

This is why I call it Eternal Security in Christ, because that is the way Paul phrases it. That the free gift of God isn't just eternal life, eternal life is in Christ. He who has the Son has life. A person shares in this gift so long as they are in Christ. It is dependent on their union with him, as the newness of life and being alive to God can only be experienced when one is in union with Christ. If one is then cut off from Christ then they lose the Covenant blessings they enjoyed when they were in union with him.

Here is an analogy for you. Say that you're a football player, and you're on the Seattle Seahawks and your team is going to go to the Super Bowl. Yet, your broke a law and are cut from the team right before the big game, even though you were told that you were going to the Super Bowl, it was contingent on the fact that you were part of the team.

The gifts and blessings are all given to Christ and the Father will never revoke these blessings, however we will only possess them so long as we are in Him.


This is just an assertion, and you're arguing against the historical understanding of Scripture. Please substantiate that the texts offered do not pertain to loss of salvation.


Please find me one reference in the NT where wrath is used in terms of discipline for believers.


The Kingdom of God, in the new heavens and new earth is the inheritance, as I demonstrated from Romans 4:13.


So they're completely cut off from fellowship, but still saved in your book? If I was a believer and murdered my pastor and wrote, "I don't believe in Jesus," on the wall, would I still be saved?


They called him "Lord," as in they recognized him as Lord and Savior, and he actually cites works as the reason for their rejection not faith. He calls them, "workers of lawlessness."


You keep inserting unbelievers, but you haven't substantiated that this is justified to do. This seems to be a pattern, and was the issue in the other debate. You inserted words that aren't there.


You keep repeating this rather than dealing with the substance of my arguments.


He is talking about people who are new believers in Christ, let's look at the context.

"But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?" 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 (ESV)

He calls them "infants in Christ," as they are not mature, as they are having issues with division in claiming who they follow. There is a difference between a person who is an infant in Christ and is maturing, versus someone living completely as an unbeliever and still claims to be saved.


Indeed God will, but if you're continually living a life of sin, God's seed does not abide in you, that's what the Apostle John asserts.


I'm afraid that you're mistaken on 1 John 3.

"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him." 1 John 3:6 (ESV)

"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15 (ESV)

Doulos my friend. You have done a fantastic job defending this position.... "Indeed God will, but if you're continually living a life of sin, God's seed does not abide in you, that's what the Apostle John asserts." Good Job....You have hit so many home runs in this thread, You will go into the "Hall of Fame". Bravo!

 

[FreeGrace]

I dodge nothing, I responded and showed you where I responded in post #33. Please do not make false claims about what I did and did not address.

You do not agree with my response.

That's because your response does not agree with Scripture.

That's fine, I welcome people to disagree with me, just don't make claims that I am hiding from some part of your argument when I have not.

Have a nice day.

Why do you think that eternal life can be lost when God's gifts, one of which is eternal life, are irrevocable?

 

[FreeGrace]

Doulos my friend. You have done a fantastic job defending this position.... "Indeed God will, but if you're continually living a life of sin, God's seed does not abide in you, that's what the Apostle John asserts." Good Job....You have hit so many home runs in this thread, You will go into the "Hall of Fame". Bravo!

Could you or Doulos cite the verse that says what is being claimed here? I'd appreciate it.