1 Timothy 3:15

[Righteousone]

If someone says that the bible is the truth to Christianity, then why does 1 Timothy 3:15 call the CHURCH the "pillar of truth"?

 

[Alabaster]

1 Timothy 3:15
If I am detained, you may know how people ought to conduct themselves in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and stay (the prop and support) of the Truth.



The written Word of God is truth, and the Church of Jesus Christ is the BASTION of the truth.

 

[cyberjosh]

If we are the pillar then what is the foundation on which it rests? God and His word I assure you (and man shall not live on bread alone but on every word of God). It also would be quite useless to quote Scripture in order to prove that Scripture is not the foundational truth, which would self-defeat the premise.

 

[Laudate Dominum]

If we are the pillar then what is the foundation on which it rests? God and His word I assure you (and man shall not live on bread alone but on every word of God). It also would be quite useless to quote Scripture in order to prove that Scripture is not the foundational truth, which would self-defeat the premise.

The Church is founded on the Rock that is Peter- Matthew 16:18.

Just kidding. Kidding! For the purposes of this debate, anyway. :wink:

It is quite evident in the New Testament that there are teachings not recorded on paper. The Word of God is not limited to the Bible.

 

[Alabaster]

If we are the pillar then what is the foundation on which it rests? God and His word I assure you (and man shall not live on bread alone but on every word of God). It also would be quite useless to quote Scripture in order to prove that Scripture is not the foundational truth, which would self-defeat the premise.

The Church is founded on the Rock that is Peter- Matthew 16:18.

Just kidding. Kidding! For the purposes of this debate, anyway. :wink:

It is quite evident in the New Testament that there are teachings not recorded on paper. The Word of God is not limited to the Bible.

Where in the Word does it say that?

 

[Laudate Dominum]

If we are the pillar then what is the foundation on which it rests? God and His word I assure you (and man shall not live on bread alone but on every word of God). It also would be quite useless to quote Scripture in order to prove that Scripture is not the foundational truth, which would self-defeat the premise.

The Church is founded on the Rock that is Peter- Matthew 16:18.

Just kidding. Kidding! For the purposes of this debate, anyway. :wink:

It is quite evident in the New Testament that there are teachings not recorded on paper. The Word of God is not limited to the Bible.

Where in the Word does it say that?

The second staement is a logical extension of the first. Should I give the support for the first statement, then?

 

[Alabaster]

The second staement is a logical extension of the first. Should I give the support for the first statement, then?

It's not true, but give it your best shot.

Besides, I don't believe this necessarily was to be a debate by the OP, but rather a true discussion, FYI.

 

[cyberjosh]

Well here's a good question: if 1 John says that we have no need for anyone to teach us the truth then how are we taught that truth? I posit that anyone sincerely seeking after God, on whom God has bestowed the Holy Spirit can be convicted by His Spirit of the truth. But I believe that it all starts with the Spirit working first through the written word of God, the seed needed to be planted in the soil of our hearts, and as it grows we will bear the fruits of understanding.

But no one can lay any other foundation than the one Christ has laid, and it is His exact written words in the Bible by which we will be judged in the last day (John 5:45, 12:48), and we cannot be accountable for words and truth we have not been told in the Gospels.

 

[Laudate Dominum]

The second staement is a logical extension of the first. Should I give the support for the first statement, then?

It's not true, but give it your best shot.

Besides, I don't believe this necessarily was to be a debate by the OP, but rather a true discussion, FYI.

I'm assuming you have a Bible handy :wink:

John 21:25

2 Thessalonians 2:15

2 John 1:12

 

[Alabaster]

It is a courteous gesture to actually paste the scriptures for us.

I will do so for you. These are pet verses, aren't they?

John 21:25
Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.

Jesus did many wonderful things that couldn't begin to have been recorded. Fortunate are they who lived to see them! But for the purposes of God, those things that were recorded were ordained for us to read of and know, with the unction of the Holy Spirit upon them to reveal to our hearts the reality and truth of them all!

2 Thessalonians 2:15
With all these things in mind, dear brothers and sisters, stand firm and keep a strong grip on the teaching we passed on to you both in person and by letter.

The disciples had the privilege of speaking and visiting with people the truth of Jesus Christ as known first-hand, and Paul as well. Nothing new under the sun, however! And we are not privvy to the first-hand speeches and demonstrations of power that the Holy Spirit imparted to the first believers and through them. But we are the byproduct of them.

We also demonstrate the teachings of Jesus Christ by word and deed to others. That is our mandate.

2 John 1:12
I have much more to say to you, but I don’t want to do it with paper and ink. For I hope to visit you soon and talk with you face to face. Then our joy will be complete.

Excellent that John was wanting to speak to the churches in person--just like many dear apostles of today who come and speak to us in person!

 

[cyberjosh]

But for the purposes of God, those things that were recorded were ordained for us to read of and know, with the unction of the Holy Spirit upon them to reveal to our hearts the reality and truth of them all!

On that note, did anyone read my last post, because I said something very similar? And I pointed out why the written word is important.

 

[Laudate Dominum]

It is a courteous gesture to actually paste the scriptures for us.

I will do so for you. These are pet verses, aren't they?

But I don't WANT to :P :

John 21:25
Jesus also did many other things. If they were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books that would be written.

Jesus did many wonderful things that couldn't begin to have been recorded. Fortunate are they who lived to see them! But for the purposes of God, those things that were recorded were ordained for us to read of and know, with the unction of the Holy Spirit upon them to reveal to our hearts the reality and truth of them all!

2 Thessalonians 2:15
With all these things in mind, dear brothers and sisters, stand firm and keep a strong grip on the teaching we passed on to you both in person and by letter.

The disciples had the privilege of speaking and visiting with people the truth of Jesus Christ as known first-hand, and Paul as well. Nothing new under the sun, however! And we are not privvy to the first-hand speeches and demonstrations of power that the Holy Spirit imparted to the first believers and through them. But we are the byproduct of them.

We also demonstrate the teachings of Jesus Christ by word and deed to others. That is our mandate.

2 John 1:12
I have much more to say to you, but I don’t want to do it with paper and ink. For I hope to visit you soon and talk with you face to face. Then our joy will be complete.

Excellent that John was wanting to speak to the churches in person--just like many dear apostles of today who come and speak to us in person!

The point of these last two passages is that they leave room for more teachings not written down. This is one part of the Scriptural basis for the Catholic idea of Sacred Tradition.

 

[Alabaster]

But for the purposes of God, those things that were recorded were ordained for us to read of and know, with the unction of the Holy Spirit upon them to reveal to our hearts the reality and truth of them all!

On that note, did anyone read my last post, because I said something very similar? And I pointed out why the written word is important.

 

[Alabaster]

Regarding Sacred Tradition:

Mark 7:8
You disobey God's commands in order to obey what humans have taught.

 

[Laudate Dominum]

Regarding Sacred Tradition:

Mark 7:8
You disobey God's commands in order to obey what humans have taught.

Jesus is reprimanding the tendancy toward scrupulosity and condemning the practice of taking money that they should have been spending to take care of elderly parents and using it as their tithe. No counter-evidence to SACRED Tradition here, which we contend to be the Word of God no less than Scripture is.

 

[Alabaster]

There is nothing definitive except Scripture. Traditions are religion and Jesus would have nothing to do with religiosity. He abhorred it. We need to as well.

Tradition has no standard by which to measure its truth. Too much room for error. I am not ever going to put my soul in jeopardy for the sake of some cunning man who wrote some neat-sounding words long ago! There is no power there, and no Holy Spirit unction on them.

No, tradition is a concept of men, and not of Jesus Christ whatsoever. Scripture is of God Himself. That's my standard! It is sure and true and is alive and powerful!

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.

 

[Laudate Dominum]

I am not ever going to put my soul in jeopardy for the sake of some cunning man who wrote some neat-sounding words long ago!

Well, that's an interesting statement on your part, especially considering the fact that I'm saying tat TRadition wasn't written down :wink:

 

[Alabaster]

I am not ever going to put my soul in jeopardy for the sake of some cunning man who wrote some neat-sounding words long ago!

Well, that's an interesting statement on your part, especially considering the fact that I'm saying tat TRadition wasn't written down :wink:

Your traditions have been written down for you, haven't they?

Noithing should be built on them. Only the solid foundation of the written Word of God is the basis of our Salvation and spiritual growth and strength.

 

[Laudate Dominum]

I am not ever going to put my soul in jeopardy for the sake of some cunning man who wrote some neat-sounding words long ago!

Well, that's an interesting statement on your part, especially considering the fact that I'm saying tat TRadition wasn't written down :wink:

Your traditions have been written down.

As the Bible has been written down. Do you understand why the early church originally compiled the New Testament?

 

[Alabaster]

As the Bible has been written down. Do you understand why the early church originally compiled the New Testament?

God ordained it. Not traditions.

Please do not proudly parade the notion that the Catholic Church is responsible for the Word of God.