1 Timothy 3:15

[Laudate Dominum]

As the Bible has been written down. Do you understand why the early church originally compiled the New Testament?

God ordained it. Not traditions.

Please do not proudly parade the notion that the Catholic Church is responsible for the Word of God.

When did that happen? How did they know that God ordained it?

 

[Alabaster]

I absolutely REFUSE to get into a Catholic debate here! So back off....please.

 

[Laudate Dominum]

I absolutely REFUSE to get into a Catholic debate here! So back off....please.

Whatever you say... It's an open forum, after all.

 

[Imagican]

The Church is NOT confined by ANYONE. The Church is the Body of Christ. NOT a 'set of laws' or 'doctrine' created by the minds of men. But the BODY formed by those that ACCEPT Christ INTO their hearts and follow His Commandments.

We KNOW that there were MANY 'pieces' of THE Church formed durring the time of the apostles. For ONE of these PIECES to insist that IT Is the ONLY ONE is utterly rediculous. ONLY in their OWN minds and hearts could they 'create' such a falacy.

NO ONE is responsible for the 'creation' of the Word of God. MANY men have been chosen to record it but NONE OF THESE that we KNOW of were even of Gentile races.

ALL of the apostles were JEWS. Christ Himself was a Jew. The Word was given BY The Jews TO the Gentiles.

And SO FAR as we have EVIDENCE: since ALL the apostles WERE Jews, then ONLY JEWS could BE apostles. For we have the words OF the apostles WHAT the requirements of apostleship were. When it was time to replace Judas postition, we have the statements concerning WHAT an apostle NEED BE in order TO BE. Being Jewish, walking with Jesus throughout His ministry, etc... The only exception that we KNOW of was Paul. And even HE was directly in contact with Christ on the road to Damascus.

But ALL were Jewish.

Peter, so far as history is concerned, COULDN'T have been the FOUNDATION of the CC. For Peter was apostle to the JEWS. The Word states this over and over again. That there may well have BEEN 'a Peter' that was the 'first Pope' IS a posibility, but that this 'first Pope' WAS Peter the apostle is NO EVEN POSSIBLE. For Paul WAS the apostle of the Gentiles and we KNOW that it was HE who brought the Word to the Romans. Paul even offered on his incarcerration WHO it was in Rome at the time that he was jailed there. And NEVER was Peter mentioned ONCE. And MOST of the time he stated who was there and after the names given states that NO OTHERS were there or came to SEE him.

The Church's foundation is TRUTH. And that comes from The Word. For there is NOT ONE that is righteous NOT ONE. But we CAN rest assured in the message revealed BY the Spirit THROUGH The Word. And the Bible or Word ALONE is useless to those that live in or for this world. It takes BOTH; Word AND Spirit to discern the truths contained within.

MEC

 

[Laudate Dominum]

The Church is NOT confined by ANYONE. The Church is the Body of Christ. NOT a 'set of laws' or 'doctrine' created by the minds of men. But the BODY formed by those that ACCEPT Christ INTO their hearts and follow His Commandments.

We KNOW that there were MANY 'pieces' of THE Church formed durring the time of the apostles. For ONE of these PIECES to insist that IT Is the ONLY ONE is utterly rediculous. ONLY in their OWN minds and hearts could they 'create' such a falacy.

NO ONE is responsible for the 'creation' of the Word of God. MANY men have been chosen to record it but NONE OF THESE that we KNOW of were even of Gentile races.

ALL of the apostles were JEWS. Christ Himself was a Jew. The Word was given BY The Jews TO the Gentiles.

And SO FAR as we have EVIDENCE: since ALL the apostles WERE Jews, then ONLY JEWS could BE apostles. For we have the words OF the apostles WHAT the requirements of apostleship were. When it was time to replace Judas postition, we have the statements concerning WHAT an apostle NEED BE in order TO BE. Being Jewish, walking with Jesus throughout His ministry, etc... The only exception that we KNOW of was Paul. And even HE was directly in contact with Christ on the road to Damascus.

But ALL were Jewish.

Peter, so far as history is concerned, COULDN'T have been the FOUNDATION of the CC. For Peter was apostle to the JEWS. The Word states this over and over again. That there may well have BEEN 'a Peter' that was the 'first Pope' IS a posibility, but that this 'first Pope' WAS Peter the apostle is NO EVEN POSSIBLE. For Paul WAS the apostle of the Gentiles and we KNOW that it was HE who brought the Word to the Romans. Paul even offered on his incarcerration WHO it was in Rome at the time that he was jailed there. And NEVER was Peter mentioned ONCE. And MOST of the time he stated who was there and after the names given states that NO OTHERS were there or came to SEE him.

The Church's foundation is TRUTH. And that comes from The Word. For there is NOT ONE that is righteous NOT ONE. But we CAN rest assured in the message revealed BY the Spirit THROUGH The Word. And the Bible or Word ALONE is useless to those that live in or for this world. It takes BOTH; Word AND Spirit to discern the truths contained within.

MEC

You have shown a fundamental misunderstanding about what the Pope claims to be and about the structure of the early Church. This is neither the time nor place to discuss this topic, however.

 

[Rick W]

Let's leave comment concerning the Catholic church out of this discussion if possible.

It seems the debate is if there can be a physical church or a spiritual one as MEC pointed out. Claiming one earthly church as the true one is a debate that's been going on even without the Catholic church being considered.

As for me I see earthly churches as assemblages for believers to fellowship. I for one don't see that one church must be THE church but rather each has it's own focus or focuses of which we have liberty to decide the one that we are comfortable with. We're all one in the army of God, some are footsoldiers, some horseman, some archers, etc but all in service to the same Commander in Chief.

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

 

[Vic C.]

Are we settled down now? Good. MEC, I know where you were going, though you forgot to mention of James in relation to the Jerusalem church. ;-)

About the OP and the verse:

1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Scripture tells us the Apostles were the foundation of the household of God:

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

But this passage also says that Jesus is the chief cornerstone. Now a foundation (and it's cornerstone) cannot stand on it's own; it must rest on something. All solid foundations are built upon solid ground.

The ground of the truth in 1 Tim 3:15 is the Living God.

 

[Alabaster]

The ground of the truth in 1 Tim 3:15 is the Living God.

In this verse, the ground of the truth, the bastion, is the Church. CHRISTIANS.

 

[Vic C.]

There are at least four or five views on this; I chose the one that harmonized best with the scripture I quoted. :-D

1- Timothy is considered a pillar because he was called out to defend the Truth of God against false teachers and doctrines.

2- The one I mentioned.

3- The one you mentioned; the church, the ekklesia.

4- The mystery of Godliness, mentioned in the following verse.

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Then there is the fifth and the one the OP alludes to: The RCC. It is an attempt to declare the RCC as the pillar and ground of truth.

 

[Arj]

I grew up in the catholic system,but when i read the bible after being born again i realised that there are some things in the catholic church which dont seem to have a scriptural basis.I guess those things crept in over the centuries,but its things which can be fixed.I think Martin Luther had these reforms in mind but the church at the time wouldnt budge.

 

[Alabaster]

"so that if I am delayed, you will know how people must conduct themselves in the household of God. This is the church of the living God, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth."


It is more than obvious that it is the Church of Jesus Christ that is spoken of here.

 

[Vic C.]

"so that if I am delayed, you will know how people must conduct themselves in the household of God. This is the church of the living God, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth."


It is more than obvious that it is the Church of Jesus Christ that is spoken of here.

What translation is that?

 

[cyberjosh]

Similar to the NIV it seems: "if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:14 - NIV)

 

[Vic C.]

Not really... his translation has the words "which is" added.

I just wanted Alabaster to site his quote. 8-)

When quotations from the NLT text are used in nonsalable media, such as church bulletins, orders of service, newsletters, transparencies, or similar media, a complete copyright notice is not required, but the initials NLT must appear at the end of each quotation.

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?a ... nfo&vid=51

 

[Alabaster]

I am a female by the way, and I use the New Living Translation. Thanks.

 

[Vic C.]

I am a female by the way, and I use the New Living Translation. Thanks.

My apologies. :

 

[Imagican]

If we are the pillar then what is the foundation on which it rests? God and His word I assure you (and man shall not live on bread alone but on every word of God). It also would be quite useless to quote Scripture in order to prove that Scripture is not the foundational truth, which would self-defeat the premise.

The Church is founded on the Rock that is Peter- Matthew 16:18.

Just kidding. Kidding! For the purposes of this debate, anyway. :wink:

It is quite evident in the New Testament that there are teachings not recorded on paper. The Word of God is not limited to the Bible.

While NOT limited TO the Bible, the Word IS offered through The Spirit. The Bible has LITTLE to offer those that are NOT guided BY The Spirit. There is LITTLE truth availible to The World THROUGH The Bible. For without The Spirit, the Bible is JUST a collection of words.

MEC

 

[Laudate Dominum]

If we are the pillar then what is the foundation on which it rests? God and His word I assure you (and man shall not live on bread alone but on every word of God). It also would be quite useless to quote Scripture in order to prove that Scripture is not the foundational truth, which would self-defeat the premise.

The Church is founded on the Rock that is Peter- Matthew 16:18.

Just kidding. Kidding! For the purposes of this debate, anyway. :wink:

It is quite evident in the New Testament that there are teachings not recorded on paper. The Word of God is not limited to the Bible.

While NOT limited TO the Bible, the Word IS offered through The Spirit. The Bible has LITTLE to offer those that are NOT guided BY The Spirit. There is LITTLE truth availible to The World THROUGH The Bible. For without The Spirit, the Bible is JUST a collection of words.

MEC

Absolutely- Without the proper guidance, someone could get any number of absurd ideas out of the Bible; anything from the idea that God wants us to kill non-christians, or God will give us whatever we want, and if we're ever ill, it's somehow a sign that God doesn't love us :roll:

What it boils down to, is that the Bible is not our sole source for religious truth. God gives us His Truth. One way He talks to us is through the Bible, but to say that God told us everything he wanted us to know in the Bible is just absurd.

 

[Alabaster]

The written Word of God is what we have. Anything else is unfounded.

 

[Laudate Dominum]

The written Word of God is what we have. Anything else is unfounded.

As said where in Scripture?