1948 significant??

[Atonement]

And this is the question to which I responded to:

What is your view?

So I gave an answer. Is an eight word answer to a four word question trolling? I have 136 posts on this forum, why am I now called a troll?

Okay if you wanna act like you're in elementary and don't understand fine.

What question were you asked to say that Israel of the OT is gone forever? When asked "what is your view" I believe it was in reference to Perry Stone, Jack Van Impe and others, in fact here is that quote:

I forgot about him

(Jack Van Impe)

I have heard many with similar views to his .
Hal Lindsey , Perry Stone, Herbert W. Armstrong, Garner Ted Armstrong,
to name a few.

What is your view?

If you want to say such a thing about Israel that is fine, but use a reference, Scripture or some cut and paste job to prove you basic theology on why you believe Israel in the OT is gone forever?

Infact Israel was the same in the NT until 70 AD when it was destroyed by the Roman Empire. It was not until 1948 when Israel was ever to be called Israel again by other nations in 2000 years. So your theology on the OT Israel is not convincing enough to assume that it was not the same untill it's destruction in 70AD? Please correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[preterist]

You seem to disregard actual physical promises in favor of a spiritual interpretation and fulfillment. But no matter what the bible says regarding Israel and actual, earthly promises, you will always claim they have been fulfilled and that's good enough for you, hence your name.

I let the NT writers tell me what the fulfillment is not people like Perry Stone and Jack Van Impe. You fail to realize spiritual blessings are couched in physical language.

Is a Christian today the seed of Abraham? Yes or no?


Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

If that's the case, there's no room for any future in anything any more. What's the relevance of the bible today then? Might as well play golf instead of going to church.

So God keeping His promises would lead you away from Him and onto a Golf Course? Interesting.

Then pray about that to God tonight. He wasted a lot of time with genealogy in the bible if it does not play into His purpose (i.e. family).

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

You think on these verses tonight after your round of Golf.

His whole plan started with Adam and Eve, and had Adam not sinned and taken from that tree of life, we would all be one in Adam as spiritual sons of God and yes, they would have reproduced and have families. But what the hey? The next poster will probably come along and ask "What is a family?" Johnny now has two mommies or whatever. When Satan redefined the family, the whole understanding of spirituality went out of the window and then you hear all kinds of perverted doctrine. Shows my age.

It does indeed, cause I don't understand your point.

So your theology on the OT Israel is not convincing enough to assume that it was not the same untill it's destruction in 70AD? Please correct me if I'm wrong...

I never said the Israel of Jesus’ generation was different than that of the OT. I would have thought you understood since you seem to read my mind. (When asked "what is your view" I believe it was in reference to Perry Stone, Jack Van Impe and others,â€Â

 

[tim-from-pa]

I let the NT writers tell me what the fulfillment is not people like Perry Stone and Jack Van Impe. You fail to realize spiritual blessings are couched in physical language.

You are talking physical here? Look whose denying that covenants given to the people of Israel: land, physical people, kings. It was Paul who had to straighten out the other apostles that the Gentiles were also included in the covenants by faith. But Paul agreed that the covenants to Israel were in effect yet as evidenced by Romans 9-11. All thru the ages all sorts of characters made (I'm sure theological) arguements why that land does not belong to Abraham's physical seed--- and were indeed enemies of God. You are confusing two types of election: one of race and one of grace.

Is a Christian today the seed of Abraham? Yes or no?

Yes. He could be physical and/or spiritual. The spiritual does not make the physical null and void, indeed, the earthly came first, then the spiritual. One does not negate the other as Gnostics would have us believe. Otherwise, what is the point of Messiah having to come from a physical lineage carefully preserved and recorded? Israel was God's oracle people as light bearers.

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

I just laugh when this is always quoted out of context when one wants to dodge the myriads of genealogical passages in the bible as if one or two verses will negate the tons of scripture with a spiritual wave of a magic wand. I won't even waste my time going there regarding this warning about cults that did that. As for not understanding the point about Adam and Eve, I expected that. The point is God wants His Kingdom here, on Earth (as it is in heaven) and this is done by reproducing and having families and lineages. God wanted man to become as Himself, glorified sons. BTW, I guess if that's the case, it means Christ has to come back the same way that he left as very clearly stated in Acts 1:11.

So let me fire a question back to you:

The land of Canaan. Does that belong to Abraham's physical seed or not? Yes or no?

 

[preterist]

You are talking physical here? Look whose denying that covenants given to the people of Israel: land, physical people, kings.

Where did I deny this? But we are now under the New Covenant, well at least I believe we are. Do you still sacrifice lambs?

It was Paul who had to straighten out the other apostles that the Gentiles were also included in the covenants by faith. But Paul agreed that the covenants to Israel were in effect yet as evidenced by Romans 9-11.

Yet in those very passages we have Paul calling physical Jews “non Israelâ€Â.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Sounds a lot like John in Revelation:

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

How could a physical Jew be a non-Jew? Perhaps Paul and John are shedding light on who God’s people are.

All thru the ages all sorts of characters made (I'm sure theological) arguements why that land does not belong to Abraham's physical seed--- and were indeed enemies of God.

And it was always conditional in the OT.


Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.


Yet you have modern Israel returning in unbelief. How is this so?

You are confusing two types of election: one of race and one of grace.

Old Covenant Israel contained the elect, but not all of Old Covenant Israel was elect. Or do you believe every Jew in the OT was elect by birth rite?

By the way, what race was Abraham?

Yes. He could be physical and/or spiritual. The spiritual does not make the physical null and void, indeed, the earthly came first, then the spiritual. One does not negate the other as Gnostics would have us believe.

So the shadows are not negated by the realities? Circumcision of the heart did not negate circumcision of the flesh? Ever read Hebrews? Does the writer of Hebrews say the physical are still here?

Which Jews in Israel are the seed of Abraham? The black Jews who came from Africa, the white Jews who came from Europe, or the olive skin Jews who were native to the region? How much of Abrahams’ blood must one have to be a Israelite? Half blood? Quarter blooded? One-sixteenth? How much? How do we prove this? Wait, I know, God knows and that’s all that matters, right?

I just laugh when this is always quoted out of context when one wants to dodge the myriads of genealogical passages in the bible as if one or two verses will negate the tons of scripture with a spiritual wave of a magic wand.

Speaking of dodges. So I guess you believe geneaologies still matter.

The point is God wants His Kingdom here, on Earth (as it is in heaven) and this is done by reproducing and having families and lineages.

Will this be an observable Kingdom? Why did John say it was near in his day?


Mat 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

BTW, I guess if that's the case, it means Christ has to come back the same way that he left as very clearly stated in Acts 1:11.

Did Jesus leave on a horse? Perhaps a horse-shaped cloud?

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

The land of Canaan. Does that belong to Abraham's physical seed or not? Yes or no?

Not in the New Covenant.

May I recommend “Typology of Scripture†by Patrick Fairbairn.

http://www.monergismbooks.com/typology643x.html

Land of Canaan:
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0 ... #PPA415,M1

 

[Atonement]

I never said the Israel of Jesus’ generation was different than that of the OT. I would have thought you understood since you seem to read my mind. (When asked "what is your view" I believe it was in reference to Perry Stone, Jack Van Impe and others,â€Â

Why would I think anything different? You never came out clear to begin with. I'm now to read your mind because you stated that the "Israel of the OT is gone forever", and now you say that you never said the "Israel of Jesus’ generation was different than that of the OT". Do you know that in Jesus' generation it was the NT?? So either you don't know what you are talking about and was just a lowsy comment, or you do know what you are talking about but do not know how to make yourself clear on the subject. You never said anything to elaborate on your foundation, now I think I have begun to prove my point on how you are trolling. You made no sence because you never backed it up through Scripture or any references. And yet we are still playing tag-along

 

[preterist]

Do you know that in Jesus' generation it was the NT??

Actually the Gospels and the NT were written after the Church/New Covenant began and the events recorded in those Gospels were indeed still under the Old Covenant.

So either you don't know what you are talking about and was just a lowsy comment,

One of us is surely clueless.

now I think I have begun to prove my point on how you are trolling.

Still trying to justify that? I quote more scripture than most.

You made no sence because you never backed it up through Scripture or any references.

At least I can spell sense. See how childish this conversation is? Is this the role of the moderator? Harass those who disagree with you?

And yet we are still playing tag-along

Have you actually commented on the subject of the thread yet or am I the source of your obsession. Tim is doing quite well with his comments, you are lacking substance in yours.

 

[Atonement]

Actually the Gospels and the NT were written after the Church/New Covenant began and the events recorded in those Gospels were indeed still under the Old Covenant.

So are we now talking about the Covenant now? I thought we were talking about Israel and the OT?? Would you stop jumping all over the place and begin to make sense already....

One of us is surely clueless.

Truly one of us is clueless (me), when the other (you) can not even make sense of their (your) own theology.

Still trying to justify that? I quote more scripture than most.

I'm not trying to justify anything. You at this point have reveived mercy from me. Please don't try to judge my foundation as a MOD or that mercy will be taken back. What I'm trying to do is allow you the time to make sense of this statement "Israel in the OT is gone forever", yet you still have not told me why you said "Israel in the OT is gone forever" Maybe I'll just say it this way so there is no futher confusion. If you can not answer this statement of yours in your next post. After allowing you to have the time to back such statements, but refuse and indulge in dialog about me. I'll just give you the warning I been holding back?

At least I can spell sense. See how childish this conversation is? Is this the role of the moderator? Harass those who disagree with you?

When did I ever say I disagree with you? I asked you to use references and Scripture to back such statements. Now you're turning this personal. Another violation of rule 5 and 6. Can you not just answer my question or should I just violate you and leave you alone, obviously you can not make a clear analogy to back such statements? If you can please do so, this is what I'm asking from you. Can you respect that from a staff member here, or are you going to continue to have this personalized?

Have you actually commented on the subject of the thread yet or am I the source of your obsession. Tim is doing quite well with his comments, you are lacking substance in yours.

I don't only come into threads to debate, I'm also here to MOD, and with you and this thread, my being here is to take action against you if you can not prove your points. I think I have been kind and have asked you to answer my simple request.

If you can not post a cilvil responce and provide Scripture or a reference on why you believe "Israel in the OT is gone forever" in your next post to me as respect of my wishes here as a staff member, trolling and personal bashing would cause you to receive a warning. It must be noted that three could have you banned from the site. I'm trying to restrain myself to allow you the time to express your feelings, please take that time and post wisely...

 

[tim-from-pa]

Yet in those very passages we have Paul calling physical Jews “non Israelâ€Â.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Paul was saying that not all that appear to be Israelites are Israelites.... there are more than just the Jews, and that gets off on my lost tribes stuff but that's another story. Still... He says very emphatically....

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

What were some items in the covenant? The birthright to the tribe of Joseph included land, a great multitude, becoming many nations, etc. To Judah it was the lineage of Kings (Oh, but that involves genealogy----I have to tell St. Matthew he started out the NT wrongly ) :-D

As a sign, they were to have a covenant of circumcision and ceremonial practices until that time when the substance of the shadow, Christ, came. Paul later came along and included Gentiles to the initial dismay of the other apostles (which shows by virtue of their position that they still believed in the covenants as Paul did). The covenant still was in effect

These signs and practices can be analogous to a title deed given forever to a family line owning land. Now comes computers and we make an electronic copy of the deed. The land still belongs to the family. Now we adopt some kids. The land still belongs to the original members and the new kids. Now the original kids stop growing crops, and they plant weed instead and go to jail---- the land is still theirs, but can't live on it.

If I understand Preterist correctly, he is saying that the new electronic copy of the deed changes the ownership somehow, because we kept not that "paper copy forever" when the order of technology changed. Likewise, a new kid wants a copy but it is not necessary. They already own the land by virtue of their relationship. And again, If I understand Preterist correctly, he is saying that the new adopted kids because they are better behaved and the pot-smoking junkies are in jail, that the ownership now only belongs to the new kids.

Geeez..... This reasoning is exactly why we have lawyers at the reading of a will. Likewise, everyone wants to take that land from the physical seed of Abraham, which BTW My original question as to whether the physical seed of Abraham still own the land was not answered. No. the covenant is not null and void to the old and original kids on the block because of the new ones, and the bible nowhere even hints this is the case.

I will now state some of the highlights of the covenant to the physical seed of Abraham which can also be enjoy by the "new kids' nevertheless is in effect for the original family yet:

1) Become a great nation
2) Become many nations
3) Seed as the dust of the earth (physical)
4) Seed as grains of sand (c.f. dust)
5) Seed as the stars of heaven (Spiritual, and in OT/NT times those called of grace within that larger chosen people of race)
6) Kings
7) A child of promise (and later "Shiloh" , or Christ, from Judah)
8) A blessing and becoming a blessing to all nations
9) Controlling the gates of their enemies (that is VERY stategic---- not some abstract spiritual concept)

 

[carey]

hmmm

And this is the question to which I responded to:

What is your view?

So I gave an answer. Is an eight word answer to a four word question trolling? I have 136 posts on this forum, why am I now called a troll?

Ever lasting means everlasting. Until the end of the age when he returns.

If we look at all the times the everlasting word is used in the Bible and remember( everything) will one days pass away and there will be a new heaven and earth. This would include everything that was everlasting would also cease to exist. Because all reality as we knew it came to an end.
The confusion would stop.

 

[preterist]

So are we now talking about the Covenant now? I thought we were talking about Israel and the OT??

What is synonymous with Covenant? Would it be Testament?

What I'm trying to do is allow you the time to make sense of this statement "Israel in the OT is gone forever", yet you still have not told me why you said "Israel in the OT is gone forever" Maybe I'll just say it this way so there is no futher confusion. If you can not answer this statement of yours in your next post. After allowing you to have the time to back such statements, but refuse and indulge in dialog about me. I'll just give you the warning I been holding

Threats treats threats. I don’t know how I can simplify it any more. I think Tim understands why I believe it and he is the one I am debating with. So here it is again. OT Israel along with its Law,priesthood and sacrifices and everything associated with it were types and shadows of greater things to come in Christ and the New Covenant. OT Israel served her purpose in bringing forth a Messiah and in providing the types of the coming Messianic Age. To bring back OT Israel means a return to the types and shadows.


Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Now perhaps you would like to answer a question, if Israel was to have the Land forever, then why did they not occupy it for nearly 2000 years since Christ?

Now you're turning this personal. Another violation of rule 5 and 6.

Yet you are the one who called me a troll. What name have I called you?

It must be noted that three could have you banned from the site.

Yet they have said nothing to me and have not called me a troll. For some reason you felt it necessary to come on this thread and call me a troll. A simple apology will do.

If I understand Preterist correctly, he is saying that the new electronic copy of the deed changes the ownership somehow, because we kept not that "paper copy forever" when the order of technology changed.

The Law went from writen on stone to written on hearts. Circumcision went from the flesh to the heart. Likewise Israel went from Israel of the flesh to Israel of the spirit. The Church did not replace Israel, Israel became the Church . Made up of both fleshly Israel and now Gentiles.

And again, If I understand Preterist correctly, he is saying that the new adopted kids because they are better behaved and the pot-smoking junkies are in jail, that the ownership now only belongs to the new kids

.

But the pot-smoking junkies are not His kids and some probably never were really, they have no relationship with the Father.

1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So explain how atheistic and agnostic Jews living in modern Israel are the “children of God†and entitled to land while in unbelief. Still haven't got an answer to that one.

Why is the Kingdom taken from them? When will this be fulfilled in your view:

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Is the Kingdom not the Jew’s Kingdom forever?

which BTW My original question as to whether the physical seed of Abraham still own the land was not answered.

Yes it was. The answer is still No. Again Paul says we are the seed of Abraham.

Ever lasting means everlasting. Until the end of the age when he returns.

If we look at all the times the everlasting word is used in the Bible and remember( everything) will one days pass away and there will be a new heaven and earth. This would include everything that was everlasting would also cease to exist. Because all reality as we knew it came to an end.
The confusion would stop.

So they won’t have the Land forever. We agree, this is the point I made way back. We just disagree when the "everlasing" ends.

 

[carey]

Re: so god lied??

I responded to a question as to what my view was, so I answered. I did not violate any rule. I think my views have more to do with the warning than anything else. Just how did I “put down Christianity� Do you equate the pre-mill, pre-trib dispensationalism with Christianity?

The Encyclopedia Brittanica (1973)
'The Jews As A Race: The findings of physical anthropology show that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race. Anthropornetric measurements of Jewish groups in many parts of the world indicate that they differ greatly from one another with respect to all the important physical characteristics." (vol. 12, page 1054)

Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem (1971)
"It is a common assumption, and one that sometimes seems ineradicable even in the face of evidence to the contrary, that the Jews of today constitute a race, a homogeneous entity easily recognizable. From the preceding discussion of the origin and early history of the Jews, it should be clear that in the course of their formation as a people and a nation they had already assimilated a variety of racial strains from people moving into the general area they occupied. This had taken place by interbreeding and then by conversion to Judaism of a considerable number of communities. . . .
"Thus, the diversity of the racial and genetic attributes of various Jewish colonies of today renders any unified racial classification of them a contradiction in terms. Despite this, many people readily accept the notion that they are a distinct race. This is probably reinforced by the fact that some Jews are recognizably different in appearance from the surrounding population. That many cannot be easily identified is overlooked and the stereotype for some is extended to all - a not uncommon phenomenon" (Encyclopedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50).

Encyclopedia Americana (1986)
"Racial and Ethnic Considerations. Some theorists have considered the Jews a distinct race, although this has no factual basis. In every country in which the Jews lived for a considerable time, their physical traits came to approximate those of the indigenous people. Hence the Jews belong to several distinct racial types, ranging, for example, from fair to dark. Among the reasons for this phenomenon are voluntary or involuntary miscegenation and the conversion of Gentiles to Judaism" (Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71).

Collier's Encyclopedia (1977)
"A common error and persistent modern myth is the designation of the Jews as a 'race! This is scientifically fallacious, from the standpoint of both physical and historical tradition. Investigations by anthropologists have shown that Jews are by no means uniform in physical character and that they nearly always reflect the physical and mental characteristics of the people among whom they five" (Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573).
Today, being a Jew simply means that one is of the Judaistic religion or a convert to it, or else in a "brotherhood" of those who are. Therefore, being a Jew has nothing to do with race. We are familiar with a number of notable figures, such as Sammy Davis, Jr., Elizabeth Taylor, and Tom Arnold, in fact, who became Jews by conversion to the religion of Judaism. In fact, one is defined a Jew by legal dispensation or coercion, with race playing no part at all:

Funk and Wagnall's New Encyclopedia (1970)
"In 1970 the Israeli Knesset adopted legislation defining a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert." (vol. 14, p. 214)

Everything you cited here from the Bible is referring to Salvationa nd the law given to moses.
It has nothing to do with the Jewish race .
Ot has nothing to do with the (OTHER) covenant with Abraham concerning the Land of Cannan and the rulership of many Nations by his decendents( RACE).

Look at the countries who have been Isarels allies since 1948 and their rulers and you will see who Abrahams decendents are.

 

[carey]

hmmm

So they won’t have the Land forever. We agree, this is the point I made way back. We just disagree when the "everlasing" ends.

Yes the reason they did not occupy the land of cannan for so long was their punishemnet.

God brought them back to their land in 1948 to show them and the world he keeps his word and the Bible is true.

The reason the y will have the land everlasting even thought they don't desrev it is again for the same reason.

Everlasting is everlasting to the end of the age.

Then it will turn from everlastinf to foerver . The jews and the gentiles will forever share in everything including that land that will be new.

 

[preterist]

Look at the countries who have been Isarels allies since 1948 and their rulers and you will see who Abrahams decendents are.

I look to Paul and his letter to the Galations or to Paul’s letter to the Romans not to the daily newspaper:

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Yes the reason they did not occupy the land of cannan for so long was their punishemnet.

God brought them back to their land in 1948 to show them and the world he keeps his word and the Bible is true.

So it will forever be an “on again off again†relationship? Show from scripture where God would give them the land in unbelief.

Everlasting is everlasting to the end of the age.

Yes, the end of the Old Covenant age, not church age.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Preterist:

Two scriptures (and there are many more like it):

Genesis 13:15-16: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Genesis 22:16-18: By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

These covenants were made to Abraham's seed for his sake and the Lord himself swore "BY MYSELF"---- it was unconditional, and one-sided punishment notwithstanding. For in the endtimes, Ezekiel 37 (Which nobody can say happened yet) very clearly talks about the two sticks being rejoined. One of them is Judah, the Jews, and God will put them back in the land again.

Are the Jews believers today? If not, then there must be a time when they will turn to the Lord and return to their land. Faith or no faith, they still own the land. Whether or not they can or do take possession is another thing.

But let's play your card for a moment. If they do not own the land today because of their unbelief, when did they stop owning the land? By your theory should technically be since the Assyrian and Babylonian captivity. If not why not? Because a remnant remained faithful? Then how do we not know that this will not happen again, and a third, forth or even fifth time if need be? When will God give up this up?

And one other thing, if it does not go to unbelieving Jews, how about believing ones? How about the church? Since God swore forever, it must go to someone.

 

[carey]

hmm

Yes, the end of the Old Covenant age, not church age.

The referrences in Romans was saying faith is what is needed to the uncircumcised.
It was saying Abrahams faith was there before circumcision.
It is speaking abouyt salvation of the soul.

When it is speaking of the LAW it is speaking of the law given to moses being replaced with faith in Jesus to get salvation.

It has nothing to do with the everlasting (seperate) covenant with Abraham.

Israel is a country again as promise Ezekial 37 : 18 "When your countrymen ask you, 'Won't you tell us what you mean by this?' 19 say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Josephâ€â€which is in Ephraim's handâ€â€and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.' 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

24 " 'My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.' "

THIS STARTED IN 1948 and is still in the process of being fulfilled now.
THIS WILL BE FINISHED fulfilling after Jesus return coming soon.

Matthw 24 : 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


This is still in the process of being fulfilled the Gospel is still not been spread to the whole world.

Matthew 24 : 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowâ€â€and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electâ€â€if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
This is yet to come but we do now have the ability to destroy all flesh with nukes and WMD's.


Isaiah 11
4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling [a] together;
and a little child will lead them.

7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

8 The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest.

9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.

10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. 11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, [c] from Elam, from Babylonia, [d] from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.

13 Ephraim's jealousy will vanish,
and Judah's enemies [e] will be cut off;
Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah,
nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.

14 They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west;
together they will plunder the people to the east.
They will lay hands on Edom and Moab,
and the Ammonites will be subject to them.

15 The LORD will dry up
the gulf of the Egyptian sea;
with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand
over the Euphrates River. [f]
He will break it up into seven streams
so that men can cross over in sandals.

16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people
that is left from Assyria,
as there was for Israel
when they came up from Egypt.

This is is in the process of beng fulfilled starting in 1948.

 

[Atonement]

Now perhaps you would like to answer a question, if Israel was to have the Land forever, then why did they not occupy it for nearly 2000 years since Christ?

Read the entire Chapter of Eze. 37. The valley of dry bones

Yet you are the one who called me a troll. What name have I called you?

Trolling is infact a violation, and yes it was trolling and yes you were a troll. Now if you noticed, I used past-tense on these phrases. Because I feel that since my last post to you, you have made yourself clear, which is what you should have done from the start and not a page later.

Yet they have said nothing to me and have not called me a troll. For some reason you felt it necessary to come on this thread and call me a troll. A simple apology will do.

I don't think so, I think you should apologize for not making yourself clear from the begining. Which is in violation of rule number four, for trolling.

 

[preterist]

Two scriptures (and there are many more like it):

Genesis 13:15-16: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Genesis 22:16-18: By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

These covenants were made to Abraham's seed for his sake and the Lord himself swore "BY MYSELF"---- it was unconditional, and one-sided punishment notwithstanding.

And we keep coming back to Paul’s words don’t we:

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

For in the endtimes, Ezekiel 37 (Which nobody can say happened yet) very clearly talks about the two sticks being rejoined. One of them is Judah, the Jews, and God will put them back in the land again.

Of course the NT tells us the “end times†were occurring in the 1st century:

1Pe 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,


As for Ezekiel 37 not being fulfilled, do you trust the words of Paul?

Careful, denying Paul’s words are a violation of this board:

“We consider Paul's writings to be part of the inspired Word of God. This is a Christian forum and any posting(s) that is intended to purpously distort Paul's writings will not be toleratedâ€Â.

Let us begin:

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Vs.13 If this fulfills 1948 then why don’t they know He is the Lord? It is clear isn’t it?

Vs.14 Did God put His Spirit in them when He put them back in the Land? In fact it seems that Him putting His Spirit in them would occur before putting them in the Land. So exactly how was this fulfilled in 1948? Again it says when He has performed it the shall know it was the word of the Lord.

Now a simple question, has verse 12 been fulfilled? If yes, please explain verses 13-14. If not, then this whole thread is moot.

Let us move on to what Paul has to say regarding chapter 37.

Eze. says this:

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Are these verses to be divorced from the other parts of Eze 37?

Why does Paul quote this verse?

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


You see what happens when you force a physical/literal interpretation of a passage that was never meant to be? You are still waiting on this when it is a present reality.

This is why I let the NT writers interpret the OT for me, this way there is no confusion.

Now, do you still claim Eze 37 has not happened?

But let's play your card for a moment. If they do not own the land today because of their unbelief, when did they stop owning the land? By your theory should technically be since the Assyrian and Babylonian captivity. If not why not?

Sounds good to me.

So are you saying even though the land is theirs forever, they may theoretically never posses it??

Then how do we not know that this will not happen again, and a third, forth or even fifth time if need be? When will God give up this up?

So what end is Moses speaking of?

Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness.

And one other thing, if it does not go to unbelieving Jews, how about believing ones? How about the church? Since God swore forever, it must go to someone.

Now you’re on to something.

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

It has nothing to do with the everlasting (seperate) covenant with Abraham.

I thought we established the fact that “everlasting†doesn’t necessarily mean forever.

Israel is a country again as promise Ezekial 37 : 18 "When your countrymen ask you, 'Won't you tell us what you mean by this?' 19 say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Josephâ€â€which is in Ephraim's handâ€â€and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.' 20 Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21 and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

24 " 'My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.' "

Yes, see above regarding Paul’s quotation of Eze 37. Also remember it is a rule violation to distort Paul’s words. (I think I would make a good moderator).

As for the 2 sticks, if they are not together then the New Covenant is not yet in existence and none of us are saved:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

Has Jer 31:31-33 been fulfilled? Yes or No?

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,

THIS STARTED IN 1948 and is still in the process of being fulfilled now.

See above and tell me which part has been fulfilled.

THIS WILL BE FINISHED fulfilling after Jesus return coming soon.

Where do you get this from, this two-fold fulfillment?

Matthw 24 : 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


This is still in the process of being fulfilled the Gospel is still not been spread to the whole world.

Now I know why there is the rule about Paul’s words. He is a pesky guy isn’t he:

Matt.24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh )for a testimony unto all the nations ( eáqnov ); and then shall the end come.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world ( ko/smov ), and preach the gospel to the whole creation .(ktiðsiv)

Matt.28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations (eáqnov ), baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:


Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth ( gh=),

All fulfilled in the 1st century:

Col.1:6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world ( ko/smov ) bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;

Col 1:23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation ( ktiðsiv )under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister

Romans 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations ( eáqnov) unto obedience of faith:

Romans 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth ( gh=), And their words unto the ends of the world ( oiÎkoumeÑnh ).

Matthew 24 : 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowâ€â€and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electâ€â€if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

Familiar with my Baptist forefather CH Spurgeon?

On Matthew 24:21)
"For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred."
"The destruction of Jerusalem was more terrible than anything that the world has ever witnessed, either before or since. Even Titus seemed to see in his cruel work the hand of an avenging God. (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412)

Isaiah 11
4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling [a] together;
and a little child will lead them.

7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

8 The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest.

9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.

10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious. 11 In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the remnant that is left of his people from Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, [c] from Elam, from Babylonia, [d] from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.

12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.

13 Ephraim's jealousy will vanish,
and Judah's enemies [e] will be cut off;
Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah,
nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.

14 They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west;
together they will plunder the people to the east.
They will lay hands on Edom and Moab,
and the Ammonites will be subject to them.

15 The LORD will dry up
the gulf of the Egyptian sea;
with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand
over the Euphrates River. [f]
He will break it up into seven streams
so that men can cross over in sandals.

16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people
that is left from Assyria,
as there was for Israel
when they came up from Egypt.

This is is in the process of beng fulfilled starting in 1948.
15 The LORD will dry up
the gulf of the Egyptian sea;
with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand
over the Euphrates River. [f]
He will break it up into seven streams
so that men can cross over in sandals.

16 There will be a highway for the remnant of his people
that is left from Assyria,
as there was for Israel
when they came up from Egypt.

This is is in the process of beng fulfilled starting in 1948.

Really? Why do you leave out the first verses?


Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit.
Isa 11:2 And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.
Isa 11:3 And his delight shall be in the fear of Jehovah; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears;

Again, do you put some sort of gap in between verses 1-3 and 4-16?

What do you think the first 3 verses refer too?

Do you take this literally: and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

This is is in the process of beng fulfilled starting in 1948.

How, please explain.

Quote:
Now perhaps you would like to answer a question, if Israel was to have the Land forever, then why did they not occupy it for nearly 2000 years since Christ?



Read the entire Chapter of Eze. 37. The valley of dry bones

I have, as had Paul.

 

[tim-from-pa]

And we keep coming back to Paul’s words don’t we:

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

And I agree, but Paul NEVER stated that the promises don't apply to the physical seed as well being Abraham's children. Fulfillment in this manner (Christ) is not the total fulfillment. We must understand that only Paul (and not the other apostles) was the only one to understand initially that Gentiles were included. That means ALL the other apostles were working in a framework of the physical seed of Abraham receiving the gospel. Again, you are confusing race with grace. God selected a race of people from whom people of grace reside within. You are seeing only one side of the coin. Goes back to my earlier inheritance example where the pot-smoking kids as well as the adopted kids inherit the land--- your view challenges whether or not the bad ones are really kids (yes they are, and thus its this type of twisting that makes us all need lawyers when someone 'knows better' by reinterpreting what the father meant in his will).

God said "By myself I have sworn": that's unconditional! The seed recepients of the land need not have personal salvation--- two different things, but the former works with the purpose of the latter.

OK, let's try Ezekiel 37 again. That did not occur yet, but suppose it has? Then who is the one stick and who is the other? There's always dualistic themes in the bible if you notice, which you are apparently unconvinced yet. I'd like to hear your version of that since you seem to see only one type of person: those who are in God's grace to the exclusion of all others. I'm convinced you only see one stick, not two being put together. Once you answer to me who each stick is, we can take it from there.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Carey:

As I debate Preterist, I take nothing personal from him and I hope not the other way around, either. It's the concept I'm really debating here.

As you probably know, what Preterist is proposing is called "replacement theology" (or a similar form) where the church replaced Israel and/or true Israel is now the church.

I agree with you about personal salvation (grace) v.s. race. The covenants as I understand them are physical blessings (if we look carefully at them, they are covenants that propose huge populations, nations and that includes a political slant, kings, military might, etc.) One does not need to be saved to posses them. But why then these physical promises? From this group is a promised seed (Christ) for those in the population compared to as "stars of heaven" who would be the 'faith crowd'. This is always a subgroup within the major group as Paul taught, but the major group was the means God would bless the world for the faith people to perpetuate His work. That's the purpose.

The promise of the land compares the descendents as "dust of the earth" Dust always represented physical seed, whereas stars would be spiritual seed. If you look carefully, chapter 13 of Genesis promises the land to the "dust" and then later in chapter 15 we see seed as "stars" implying a lesser, albeit plentiful seed of faith in the gospel age. But the spiritual seed "stars" does not nullify the "dust". They are paired.

 

[carey]

hmmm

I have, as had Paul.

Maybe this will help

Ten fulfilled in 1948
These 10 Bible prophecies were fulfilled in 1948 when Israel became an independent, united nation for the second time in history, and for the first time in 2,900 years.

1. Jacob's descendants would regain control of Israel
Bible passage: Amos 9:14-15
Written: about 750 BC
Fulfilled: Since 1948
In Amos 9:14-15, the prophet said that there would come a time when the exiles of Israel would again have Israel as their own land and that they would never be uprooted again. Amos lived about 2700 years ago, during a time when the people of Israel were being forced out of their homeland by a succession of foreign invasions. Despite many centuries of exile, many Jews returned to Israel and reclaimed sovereignty over a portion of their ancient homeland. This declaration of independence, in 1948, triggered a war with the surrounding countries, which objected to the presence of a Jewish state. On May 15, 1948, the day that armies from the surrounding countries invaded, Azzam Pasha, the Secretary General of the Arab League, said "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades." Similar quotes were uttered by others during the war of 1948-49 and during the two major wars that followed. Despite its tiny size, Israel prevailed in these wars, preventing its people from being uprooted again, as they had been in ancient times.
Amos 9:14-15
I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the Lord your God.

2. Israel would be brought back to life
Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:10-14
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 37:10-14, the prophet receives a vision in which Israel was seen as a scattering of dried-up bones. In this vision, God tells Ezekiel that the bones (Israel) would be brought back to life. Just as Ezekiel had prophesized about 2600 years ago, the Jews were brought back to the land, and the country of Israel was brought back to life. Israel re-established sovereignty in 1948, a mere three years after the end of the Holocaust, during which the Nazis killed about one-third of the world's Jewish population.
Ezekiel 37:10-14
So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet--a vast army. Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, `Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them: `This is what the Sovereign Lord says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.'"

3. Isaiah spoke of a Israel being reborn in one day
Bible passage: Isaiah 66:7-8
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Isaiah 66:7-8, the prophet foreshadowed the re-birth of Israel in 1948. Isaiah describes a woman giving birth before going into labor, and he speaks of a country being born in one day. This accurately describes what happened on May 14, 1948 - when the Jews declared independence for Israel as a united and sovereign nation for the first time in 2900 years.

During that same day, the United States issued a statement recognizing Israel's sovereignty. And, only hours beforehand, a United Nations mandate expired, ending British control of the land. During a 24-hour span of time, foreign control of the land of Israel had formally ceased, and Israel had declared its independence, and its independence was acknowledged by other nations. Modern Israel was literally was born in a single day.

Isaiah said the birth would take place before there would be labor pains. And that too is precisely what happened. A movement called Zionism began in the 1800s to encourage Jews worldwide to move to Israel, which at that time was called Palestine. Within hours of the declaration of independence in 1948, Israel was attacked by the surrounding countries of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

When reading Isaiah 66:7-8, keep in mind that Israel's status as a sovereign nation was established and reaffirmed during the course of a single day, and that it was born of a movement called Zionism, and that its declaration of independence was not the result of a war but rather the cause of one.
Isaiah 66:7-8
"Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children."

4. Israel would be re-established as a united nation
Bible passage: Ezekiel 37:21-22
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 37:21-22, the prophet said that God would one day bring the people of Israel back to Israel, as a united nation. This might have been a shock for Ezekiel. He lived about 2600 years ago. At that time, the people of Israel had already divided themselves into two separate kingdoms. And, both kingdoms had been conquered by foreign invaders, who forced many of the people, including Ezekiel, into exile. But, when Jews reclaimed sovereignty in 1948, they did so as a united people, creating one nation - Israel.
Ezekiel 37:21-22
and say to them, `This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.

5. The second Israel would be more impressive than the first
Bible passage: Jeremiah 16:14-15
Written: sometime from 626 to about 586 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Jeremiah 16:14-15, the prophet said the second Israel would be more impressive than the first. In many regards, it is. The first time that Israel was established as a country was after Moses led the descendants of Jacob (typically referred to today as Jews) out of Egypt, where they had been enslaved for 400 years. They then conquered Canaan and established Israel about 3400 years ago. But the second time that Israel was established was after the Jews had been scattered far and wide for a few thousand years. This time the Jews had to return from as far away as the United States, China, Russia and South Africa.
Jeremiah 16:14-15
"However, the days are coming," declares the Lord, "when men will no longer say, 'As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' but they will say, 'As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.

6. Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established
Bible passage: Ezekiel 4:3-6
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 4:3-6, the prophet said the Jews, who had lost control of their homeland, would be punished for 430 years. This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel.

1. Ezekiel said the Jews were to be punished for 430 years because they had turned away from God. As part of the punishment, the Jews lost control of their homeland to Babylon. Many Jews were taken as captives to Babylon.

2. Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC, about 70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon.

3. Because most of the exiles chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7. The reason is explained in Bible's book of Leviticus. (Leviticus 26:18, 26:21, 26:24 and 26:28). In Leviticus, it says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon, most exiles were refusing to repent.

4. So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years. But, Jeffrey says those years are based on an ancient 360-day lunar calendar. If those years are adjusted to the modern solar calendar, the result is 2,484 years.

5. And, there were exactly 2,484 years from 536 BC to 1948, which is the year that Israel regained independence.
Ezekiel 4:3-6
(In this Bible passage, Ezekiel is asked by God to symbolically act out the 430 years of punishment)
… Then take an iron pan, place it as an iron wall between you and the city and turn your face toward it. It will be under siege, and you shall besiege it. This will be a sign to the house of Israel. "Then lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel. "After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year.

7. The people of Israel would return to "their own land"
Bible passage: Ezekiel 34:13
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: after May 14, 1948
In Ezekiel 34:13, the prophet said that God would gather the people of Israel scattered throughout the world and bring them back to "their own land." After many centuries of dispersion, hundreds of thousands of Jews returned to their ancient homeland beginning in the late 1800s. But, millions more returned after Israel declared independence in 1948. In other words, millions of exiles returned to their ancient homeland which was now truly "their own land" in the sense that it was now a sovereign Jewish state.
Ezekiel 34:13
I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.

8. God would watch over the people of Israel
Bible passage: Jeremiah 31:10
Written: sometime from 626 to about 586 BC
Fulfilled: 1948, etc.
In Jeremiah 31:10, the prophet said that God would one day gather the Jews back to Israel and that He would watch over them like a shepherd. Believe what you wish, but there is evidence that God indeed has watched over the re-established nation of Israel. Hours after Israel declared independence in 1948, the surrounding countries attacked, hoping to replace the Jewish state with an Arab state. These countries are much larger than Israel. But tiny Israel prevailed in that war and was able to capture additional land, increasing the land size of Israel by 50 percent. Israel also prevailed in the two other major wars that followed.
Jeremiah 31:10
"Hear the word of the Lord, O nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: 'He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.'

9. Israel's army would be disproportionately powerful
Bible passage: Leviticus 26:3, 7-8
Written: perhaps around 1400 BC
Fulfilled: 1948-49, 1967, etc.
In Leviticus 26:3, 7-8, the Bible says that the army of Israel would have a supernatural power to prevail during times of conflict, if the people are obedient to the Lord. This Bible passage says that 5 people would be able to chase away 100 people, and that 100 would be able to chase away 10,000. Is there any proof to this incredible claim? Judge for yourself:

Example 1: Within hours of Israel's declaration of independence in 1948, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Lebanon invaded Israel. The combined population of those countries was at least 20 million at that time. Israel had fewer than 1 million Jews. Even so, the Jews won the war and expanded the size of Israel by 50 percent.

Example 2: During the War of 1967, Israel attacked the air force bases of the surrounding countries and took control of Jerusalem for the first time in about 2000 years. They also seized additional territory. That war lasted a mere 6 days.

Example 3: On Oct. 6, 1973, Israel was attacked by Egypt and Syria. Other countries later joined the attack. But the Jews were able to push back the attacking armies and occupy land outside of Israel's borders.
Leviticus 26:3, 7-8
"If you follow my decrees and are careful to obey my commands, … You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you."

10. The fortunes of the people of Israel would be restored
Bible passage: Deuteronomy 30:3-5
Written: perhaps 1400 BC
Fulfilled: 1948, etc.
In Deuteronomy 30:3-5, the Bible said the Jews would be scattered worldwide and that they later would return to their homeland and have their fortunes restored. This prophecy began to be fulfilled in modern times during the late 1800s when many Jews returned to Israel, from as far away as China and the United States, Russia and South Africa. Israel declared independence in 1948. Today, Israel is among the world's most prosperous countries. In 1999, for example, Israel's per capita Gross Domestic Product was twice as prosperous than the neighboring countries.
Deuteronomy 30:3-5
then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your fathers, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers.