1Tim 6:20 and Acts 17:11 as a basis of Scriptural guidance

[cupid dave]

1Tim 6:20 and Acts 17:11 (as well as the Two Greatest Commands) form the basis of the Scriptural guidance


The two verses together, in 32AD, condemn science as a means to the Truth and recommends that people search the scriptures.
This seems good advice for that Pre-Modern Scientific Method era.
And, the search of Scripture according to Theistic Evoution still supports the search of the scriptures in order to see the Truth.



Can we, in this Modern Age of Empirical Science, assume that St Paul was referring to Modern Science as well as the Astrologically based supposed sciences of his day?

In 1Tim 6:20, St Paul writes the warning against that ancient pseudo-science that was full of magicians and soothsayers, and based upon the mere opinions and arguments set forth by Aristotle and Plato.

Was it not the historically the fact that the RCC split because that RCC did not listen to iTi 6:20? They continued to place faith in Ptolemy, insisted that the church assumption they stamped with their authority onto the pages of Genesis somehow said God told them, the Sun rotates around the earth.

What seem to have happened is that men in the 17th Century developed ways to find the Truth, the essence of the Christ, and ascertain without doubt that certain things were True, regardless of what the arguments and prestige of Plato wroth upon that Truth.

The larger question for Denominational Protestant Christians is whether they remember their own roots, and how they fault the "knowledge" of the church leaders, because this Scientific Method demonstrated that it was the RCC leaders who lied as the devils will, not father Copernicus, not Newton, Galileo, and Kepler, et al.

And, those men use this method of Modern Science which allowed any man to double check the Truth they boast of, merely by peering into the teleoscope for themselves.



1Tim 6:20 and Acts 17:11 (as well as the Two Greatest Commands) form the basis of the Scriptural guidance

 

[Sparkey]

Sounds like you might be quoting and/or taking your quote out of context, cupid dave - but yes, those two Scriptures may be taken into consideration along with the 2 Greatest Commandments while seeking Scriptural Guidance, especially as one strives to serve the Lord by conforming all thoughts, acts and deeds to the spirit of the Word of God.

I hope this discussion doesn't go toward a discussion of the RCC though, as that would mean my decision to move it to General Talk was not well considered. Let's keep the discussion general while this thread remains in General Talk.

Sparrow

 

[stormcloud]

Take another look at the 1 Timothy passage again. Paul isn't condemning science, but what is falsely called science. True science can't contradict the faith because God ordered the universe. True science merely studies that order.

 

[Sparkey]

I don't think Paul was talking about "Science" at all. The word gnosis can as easily (perhaps more accurately?) be translated "knowledge". He wasn't speaking about General Knowledge either. Paul was speaking about the kind of knowledge that is expressed in opposition to what had been entrusted to Timothy (The Good News). He characterized that kind of "knowledge" in two ways, that it was useless and could not be used in the edification of the faith (empty or vain) and that it crossed the threshold to venture onto unholy ground (profane).

But let us not neglect Acts 17:11 here. In there we have an example of Christians who searched the Scripture to prove what they were being taught. These two principles, taken together with the 2 Greatest Commandments (Love God above All and Others as Self) may be well used for guidance while approaching the many subjects of principled Biblical study.

Too often our conversations are expressed in antithesis to one another. Can we imagine what good could be done if instead we started to really support each other and build each other up in our most Holy Faith, while guarding against falsity? That's almost like saying, "Let's leave the milk of the word and go on to the meat."

 

[Deborah13]

If Timothy had been into the sciences in some why previously we may have reason to believe Paul was talking to him about the sciences. However, we don't see that, so what Sparrowhawk has said is definitely what makes sense.
We know that Tim was half Jewish and that he would have know the Law of Moses under the OT. It's possible the Paul was warning him not to let false teachers or Judizers turn him from the gospel that Paul had taught him.

 

[Sparkey]

Greetings Deborah, can you tell us more about your thoughts relating "Judizers" to what Paul told Timothy to guard against? I've not heard about that specific aspect of his letter to Timothy as a primary message.
________________________________________
My study of the book:

Recall that Paul is writing to a young pastor, entrusted with overseeing a church. He writes to his disciple (who had been traveling with Paul) concerning the Ministry:
Chapter 1: We read how Paul talks to Timothy about the Church and its Message.
Chapter 2 & 3: We read how Paul talks to Timothy about the Church and its Members.

Praying men, Submitting women, Qualified leaders​

Chapter 4: 3rd Category: We read how Paul talks to Timothy about the Church and its Minister.

He is to be a "good minister," a "godly minister," and a "growing minister".​

Chapter 5: Deals with the Church and its ministry to itself.

The Church Family, to widows (in particular) and practical thoughts about leaders.​

Simple outline: 1st Timothy deals with the church. The Message in chapter 1, The Members in chapters 2 & 3, The Minister in chapter 4, The Ministry (service) to itself in chapter 5 and finally, as we finish the book, the Ministry of the Church in the world.

Chapter 6 divides itself into three sections as Paul is talking about the Church and its Ministry in the world; Vocationally, Materially and finally, Academically or Intellectually.
Vocationally (which means your job or profession), Materially (meaning your possessions or financial matters) and Academics (how is to handle themselves academically or educationally or intellectually.)

• Vocationally: see 1Tim 6:1-3 about workers (employees) and the Name of God not being blasphemed. Speaking to those who are "under the yoke" and telling them to be a good egg. Not to "scramble" and say, "I'm outta here." Not to get "fried" and complain. How we comport ourselves on the job (in the class, on the ball-field etc.). Paul is talking about the importance of being faithful in work BUT some were coming on the scene and not teaching it that way. Some were coming and planting seeds of the "Name-it-and-claim-it" path to riches. Don't think you have to work hard at the job, you're a child of the King, you're a king's kid. see 1Tim 6:5 about suppositions that gain is godliness. They say, "work the faith, manipulate God," essentially reducing the good news to "blab-it and grab-it" doctrines, "get the concepts down and you will be wealthy." We are to resist "seed-faith giving". It happened in Paul's day too. Paul says "godliness with contentment is great gain." Faith teachers in their seminars say, "godliness will bring wealth and you will be content." We know the wealthy man is not the one who gets what he wants, the wealthy man is the one who wants what he gets saying, "Father, whatever you send my way, I am happy because I trust in you." They work hard, vs. 1 & 2. Psalms 84:11 Learn to be content.
• Financially: see 1Tim 6:10 Those who want to be rich fall into snares and temptations. Some have coveted after [money] and have err'd from the faith and fall into temptations and snares into many foolish and hurtful lusts which drown men into destruction and perdition. They stray from the faith and pierce themselves through with many sorrows. The old tycoon/miser looked at his beautiful, young wife and said, "Sugar, if I lost all my money, would you still love me?" Sugar replied, "Oh honey, I would love you!" then added, "and I would miss you too." The rich can fall into temptation and pierce themselves with many sorrows. Life can become sad. The poorest 3% of those reading this are among the top 10% of the world's wealthiest people. We are blessed. If you have food and clothing? Be content. "But thou, O man of God, flee these things and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness..." 1Tim 6:11,12 Lay hold on eternal life!
• Academically: see 1Tim 6:17-19,20-21 Keep (guard) what has been entrusted to you. Avoid profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Paul is impassioned as he pleads with Timothy, "Timothy, while these guys are talking about wealth in this world, Timothy, you lay hold on eternal life. You live with eternities values in view." I give thee charge (vs. 13) ... that thou keep [this] commandment without spot. Paul mentions the witness that was given to Pontius Pilot about Jesus. John, chapter 18. Pilot asked, "Art thou a king, then?" and Jesus answered Pilot, "thou sayest it." You're asking me if I'm a king, Pontius? You said it. To this end was I born and for this cause I came into the world, that I should bear witness of the truth, and everyone that is of the truth hears my voice. You said it, Pontius and if you are really desiring to know truth, you too will hear my voice. So, Jesus, who brings all things to life (vs. 13) and before Pontius Pilot gave a good confession, is spoken of Paul who goes on to exhort and admonish young Timothy to KEEP this commandment until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, showing who is the King of kings, and Lord of lords. True knowledge and true science confirms the Scriptures. Stay away from that vain (empty) babbling which some professing, they have erred. If you want to navigate life without being embarrassed, and live eternally, study the Scriptures and do what they tell you to.

________________________________________________

Deborah, none will dispute that Paul spoke against Judizers and the Law of Moses. He may very well have had this in mind as the Holy Spirit inspired him to write to Timothy. When we are told to guard against vain and profane babblings though, I'm not convinced that this is specifically what he had in mind. We can look deeper into what kinds of things can be classified as "science falsely so called" or what I term the "Fictions of Science" later, but I've said enough for one post. ;)

Let me close with the blessing that Paul asked for Timothy, echoing that very blessing in my prayer for you, "Grace be with thee. Amen"





Accreditation // Credit // Reference: BibleStudies from Jon Courson
Quoted or reproduced by permission.

 

[Deborah13]

That is a good post and interpretation and I enjoyed reading it.
You ask where I may have gotten the idea of Judizers from. It wasn't anything specific to this scripture. Only what I said.
I did however look up this definition of gnosis.

1) knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding

a) the general knowledge of Christian religion

b) the deeper more perfect and enlarged knowledge of this religion, such as belongs to the more advanced

c) esp. of things lawful and unlawful for Christians

d) moral wisdom, such as is seen in right living

C) Did bring to mind that lots of babblings are about whats lawful and whats not. It seems that we want to instruct each other in law (sin) rather than righteousness (faith and grace), just like the Judizers.

 

[Deborah13]

That is a good post and interpretation and I enjoyed reading it.
You ask where I may have gotten the idea of Judizers from. It wasn't anything specific to this scripture. Only what I said.
I did however look up this definition of gnosis.

1) knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding

a) the general knowledge of Christian religion

b) the deeper more perfect and enlarged knowledge of this religion, such as belongs to the more advanced

c) esp. of things lawful and unlawful for Christians

d) moral wisdom, such as is seen in right living

C) Did bring to mind that lots of babblings are about whats lawful and whats not. It seems that we want to instruct each other in law (sin) rather than righteousness (faith and grace), just like the Judizers.

Not that the Law is sin, but when we teach it it does it's job and condemns. Just to clarify because it sounded bad.

 

[Sparkey]

Not that the Law is sin, but when we teach it it does it's job and condemns. Just to clarify because it sounded bad.

I know the feeling, especially when talking about what Paul said about the law. One of the things that Peter mentioned is that some (unlearned) twist such things unto their own destruction 2Pet 3:16.

We do find more about what Paul specifically said to Timothy in chapter 4 though:
Seductions in the Last Days
1Tim 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith. The Spirit speaks exactly, expressly and pointedly.

Paul, the apostle is declaring that this is known, *the Spirit speaketh expressly,* among the congregation. Prophetic words were being heard and Paul's writings confirmed what was being heard, and that is as we move into the Latter Times, the Last Days, there would be, sad to say, a departing from the faith.

Survey: Less Than 1 Percent of Young Adults Hold Biblical Worldview among Christians and the overall US population. Take 200 young people between 18 and 23 and only one will have a Biblical World View, that's merely ½ of 1%.

What is a "Biblical World View" we may ask? As defined by the study this consists of:

• Believing that Absolute Moral Truth exists
• The Bible is Accurate in all of the Principles it teaches
• Satan is a real being or force
• A person can not earn their way into Heaven by being good or doing good works
• Jesus Christ lived a sinless life
• and God is the all-knowing, all-powerful, creator of the world who still rules the universe today.

In the young generation that we see today, only 1 of 200 would agree with that view. The study goes on to say that their research shows that only 9% of all Americans (from all generations) have a "biblical world-view. Among quote "born-again Christians" endquote, the study found that they were twice as likely as the average adult to have a "biblical world view." 19% of "born again Christians" believe the bible is true, that Jesus lived a sinless life, that you can't work your way into heaven, that there really is a devil, and that God has given us an understanding of Truth that is not relativism or based on the situation. Things that the Bible clearly teaches. Only one in five Christians believe that to be true. The idea of "basic truths" and a "biblical world-view" is being rapidly lost even among born-again Christians. And when we look at the younger generation? One in two hundred.

We are not to be depressed nor despondent because (as verse 1 tells you and me) there's going to be the "giving of the ear" to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. It's like saying, there's going to be an unleashing of the demonic and these demons are not going to come across as being scary. They're going to come across as being seductive. (see Rev 9:1-3, when the "abyssos" (bottomless pit) was opened)" These demons that are being held there right now are going to be let go in the Tribulation (pardon my mention, I don't wish to derail the thread into eschatology too much). But remember in Luke, chapter 8 when Jesus cast out the demons called "Legion" and the demons said, "Don't send us to the abyssos, don't send us to the pit." Let the jovial reader also notice that Jesus didn't have to cast them into swine, he could have put them into oysters, but obviously this is a 2nd best choice because, as we all know, you're really not supposed to cast your pearls before swine. (okay, okay, that one needs work) :toofunny

Back to the Revealing to John: When these demons were released we see they had "hair, as the hair of women." Crowns of gold upon their heads, faces like men, hair as of women. Which in biblical terminology speaks of seductiveness, they will come across as very, very cool. Not scary or frightening initially, but something that is seductive, intriguing, kind, soft, gentle, big-hearted, Oprah-ish, embrace everything, everybody, everybody is good, everybody is right, everybody is okay. That sounds kind and is seductive, it appears very loving, but it's not what the Bible says. The Bible doesn't say that every way is going to end up leading you to God; that all paths end up in the same place. Seductive hair, faces of intelligence, crowns of gold (authority). The reality is, these kinds of things originate from seducing spirits, they are doctrines of devils and they speak lies (verse 2) in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron. When they speak against what God entrusted to Christ, who in turn entrusted to Paul and was then entrusted to Timothy, and when they affirm that "all paths lead to God," and etc., they are speaking out of their own conscience, that has been seared by their own hypocrisy. That's what the bible says. Some may say, "Well, I just live by my own conscience. Problem with that (we have to tell them) is that the conscience can be seared, you can become dulled. You know how this works. A person initially is horrified at the thought of doing something, but then they do it... and they say, "well, okay I did that, but I'm not gonna take it the next step and go there..." then they go there, whatever the next step might be, and their conscience is being seared in the process. Things that we once thought would be horrible to indulge in are no longer as bad due to the dulling nature of such things. Consequently, now we are not as sensitive any more. That's what the Bible says is happening with those that are propagating these doctrines authored by seducing spirits and such teachings. It's because their "lifestyle" is contrary to what they know is right from the Teachings and Counsel of the Holy Spirit.

Last Days: People are gonna walk away from the faith, they're gonna depart the truth, they won't have a biblical worldview. Why? Because they are listening to the lies of seducing spirits that come across as being so embracive, inclusive, loving or whatever the angel who appears to be of light dictates. We can not serve two masters, we will either love one and hate the other. We obey the master that we submit our members to.



Accreditation // Credit // Reference: BibleStudies from Jon Courson
quoted or reproduced by permission

The bible says, and this we can say this with certainty, "In the last days, there's gonna come a movement of people who say, "Don't worry about marriage (they're opposed to it, they're down on it, they have no concern about it), and then another voice from the same people will say, "but, you better not eat meat." But God created that meat to be eaten with thanks by those who know the truth. What did God create? Meat. That's the text in 1Tim 4:3. Not everybody will agree with all that I'm suggesting but we are to understand that we should not go down that path and fall prey to New Age doctrines and subtleties. And I would hope that those who are born-again and believers, those who have called upon the Name of Jesus would be able to list several of the characteristics that these things, these doctrines of devils, are to be recognized by.