3 groups exist in Mt c.25:32-46: sheep,goats,my brethren

[Alfred Persson]

[FONT=&quot]Some believe Matthew 25:32f proves there are only two groups of mankind, the sheep (righteous) and the goats (unrighteous) But it is beyond reasonable doubt three classes of men can be found in that context. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]For example, the Church which is saved by grace, not works, through faith BUT these "sheep" are saved by works done in ignorance of Jesus, hence its impossible they symbolize faith in Him. Moreover, at the time of this judgment the church is already with Christ reigning as Kings and Priests (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16) "and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (Joh 5:24 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]…[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Mat 25:32-40 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"My brethren" cannot be "the sheep" for that's redundant absurdity. "My brethren" cannot be "elect Israel" versus "non-elect Israel" because this is a judgment of all nations (25:32), not Israel only. "My brethren" cannot be the Israel nation versus the Gentiles nations because Christ's immediate audience is Israelis being exhorted to consider their latter end. "My brethren cannot be "all mankind in need" and the church the sheep because it's not possible they wouldn't be depicted as ignorant of Christ and judged for their works. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]That leaves the identification of "My brethren" as the church "conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Ro 8:29 NKJ) Compare "He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me…. 42 "And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward." (Mat 10:40, 42 NKJ); 41 "For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward. (Mar 9:41 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So the three classes are: "My brethren" = the righteous, "the goats" = the unrighteous and "the sheep" the intermediate or "middling people."[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Three groups also appear in John 5:24 "he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."Therefore the church is not in John 5:28-29 when those in Hades hear Christ's voice and those who did good experience a resurrection into life:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jo 5:24-29 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]These three groups again appear in Revelation chapter 20. In verses 4-6 the martyrs join the rapture/resurrection of the church (1 Th 4:14-18; 1 Co 15:51-58; Mt 24:29-31; Re 14:14-16) leaving "the rest of the dead" (20:5) to rise up a thousand years. Their juxtaposition with the martyrs implies they are the "intermediate group" and not the wicked who also rise up in Rev 20:11-15. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In Re 20:12 the book of life is opened confirming some of these rise into life (Jo 5:28-29). These are judged according to their works and if love of light is manifest (cf Mat 25:35-40; cp John 3:19-21) then they are saved by grace their names are written in the book of life. That names can be written into (Mal 3:16) or blotted out of the book of life (Rev 3:5) proves it contains more than the names of the elect unconditionally chosen before the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] A parallel to this can be found in the Jewish Talmud:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"Three books are opened [in heaven] on New Year, one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for the intermediate. The thoroughly righteous are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of life; the thoroughly wicked are forthwith inscribed definitively in the book of death; the doom of the intermediate is suspended from New Year till the Day of Atonement; if they deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of life; if they do not deserve well, they are inscribed in the book of death….It has been taught: Beth Shammai say, There will be three groups at the Day of Judgment - one of thoroughly righteous, one of thoroughly wicked, and one of intermediate.-Talmud, Mas. Rosh HaShanna 16b, -Judaic Classics Library by David Kantrowitz, 2001, Institute for Computers in Jewish Life, Judaica Press, Inc. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Paul's instructor (Ac 22:3) Gamaliel presided over the school or "Beth" Shammai around 30 A.D. and some elements of this teaching were carried forward into the New Testament:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Mat 13:52 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Verses suggesting salvation hasn't yet been achieved imply the existence of "the intermediate" (2 Pet 2:1; Gal 5:4; Heb 10:26; 1 Cor 5:5), their names might yet be blotted out of the book (Ps 69:28; Rev 3:5) and this permits apostolic humility the hypothetical: "lest… I myself should be a castaway" (1Co 9:27 KJV). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The resurrection in Revelation 20:11-15 (cf Joh 5:28-29) is "of the dead" (vs. 12) therefore the church alive with Christ is not in this context (John 5:24); their judgment (Rom 14:10; 2 Cor 5:10;1 Pet 4:17) concerns rewards, not salvation (1 Cor 3:15; 2 Pet 1:10-11). Therefore the opened book of life implies the existence of the intermediate group.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Therefore the existence of three classes of mankind, not only two, is beyond reasonable doubt. This impacts many areas of soteriology, for example the supposed logical corollary between unconditional election to life of some leaving the rest in positive or negative reprobation, becomes a false dilemma as some of them can be saved according to their works.[/FONT]

 

[smaller]

Hi Alfred

Hey, did you ever ask yourself this question?

Do I always, each and every time, only do SHEEP WORKS?

If not, then the obvious is that you yourself sometimes, maybe even very often do actually do GOAT WORKS.

To me that is pretty obvious. No, I do not always.

The marks laid out are 6 fold:

-feed the hungry
-provide the thirsty drink
-welcome and comfort the stranger
-cloth the naked
-heal the sick
-visit the prisoner

Each and every time when 'you' have been confronted with the above situations, have you done what Jesus asked? Without fail? Every single time? Even on the first count, feeding the hungry would require everything we have and own to be thrown just at that matter alone, and then we still would barely make a dent only in 'feeding the hungry.' So every believer who is not flat broke just doing that MEANS they are NOT DOING THAT and are in fact doing GOAT WORKS.

Pretty simple to be honest isn't it? We 'all' do Goat Works. That's all there is to it because IT'S AN HONEST FACT.

Are you honest Alfred? I like honesty, don't you?

s

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hi Alfred

Hey, did you ever ask yourself this question?

Do I always, each and every time, only do SHEEP WORKS?

If not, then the obvious is that you yourself sometimes, maybe even very often do actually do GOAT WORKS.

To me that is pretty obvious. No, I do not always.

The marks laid out are 6 fold:

-feed the hungry
-provide the thirsty drink
-welcome and comfort the stranger
-cloth the naked
-heal the sick
-visit the prisoner

Each and every time when 'you' have been confronted with the above situations, have you done what Jesus asked? Without fail? Every single time? Even on the first count, feeding the hungry would require everything we have and own to be thrown just at that matter alone, and then we still would barely make a dent only in 'feeding the hungry.' So every believer who is not flat broke just doing that MEANS they are NOT DOING THAT and are in fact doing GOAT WORKS.

Pretty simple to be honest isn't it? We 'all' do Goat Works. That's all there is to it because IT'S AN HONEST FACT.

Are you honest Alfred? I like honesty, don't you?

s

Yes, I agree, honesty is a good thing.

I also like discussion, not being ignored.

Why didn't you start your own thread, then ignoring me would be proper. Why post under mine, only to rudely ignore everything I said? Isn't that a goat work?

 

[smaller]

Yes, I agree, honesty is a good thing.

I also like discussion, not being ignored.

Why didn't you start your own thread, then ignoring me would be proper. Why post under mine, only to rudely ignore everything I said? Isn't that a goat work?

I would happily address every particular therein, but was just checking to see how you felt about goat works personally, to, you know, see what kind of a person I was in dialog with.

Obviously that is a problem to admit? Or not? After all if YOU do goat works, perhaps most of your fancy little construct crumbles around your ears, doesn't it?

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"My brethren cannot be "all mankind in need" and the church the sheep because it's not possible they wouldn't be depicted as ignorant of Christ and judged for their works. [/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR]

I can't think of any real reason to think the needy in Matthew 25 does not represent any suffering people in the world. Especially in the light of God's admonition to us to do good to all people:

"9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers." (Gal. 6:9-10 NIV1984)

And I think the point of not knowing that you have done something good to Christ himself is to show how Christ identifies so closely with the hurting and suffering that when you give relief to them you give relief to him. It would be good if more people realized that whatever people do to the family of believers, good or bad, is done unto Christ himself. All of us are, after all, a part of the one Body of Christ where when one suffers all suffer.


"26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it." (1 Corinthians 12:26-27 NIV1984)

 

[Alfred Persson]

I can't think of any real reason to think the needy in Matthew 25 does not represent any suffering people in the world. Especially in the light of God's admonition to us to do good to all people:

"9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers." (Gal. 6:9-10 NIV1984)

And I think the point of not knowing that you have done something good to Christ himself is to show how Christ identifies so closely with the hurting and suffering that when you give relief to them you give relief to him. It would be good if more people realized that whatever people do to the family of believers, good or bad, is done unto Christ himself. All of us are, after all, a part of the one Body of Christ where when one suffers all suffer.


"26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it." (1 Corinthians 12:26-27 NIV1984)

Be consistent with your interpretation. if "Christ's brethren" are the needy of the world, then who are the sheep?

These sheep are ignorant of Christ, and are judged by their works.

The church is not ignorant of Christ, and is not judged by works, they are saved by grace.

So how do you reconcile that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Be consistent with your interpretation. if "Christ's brethren" are the needy of the world, then who are the sheep?

These sheep are ignorant of Christ, and are judged by their works.

The church is not ignorant of Christ, and is not judged by works, they are saved by grace.

So how do you reconcile that?

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:9-11 NIV1984)

I don't think it unreasonable to think that the righteous works of the righteous will be used as evidence to prove their faith in Christ at the judgment just as we know the evil works of the unrighteous will be used as evidence to condemn them as unbelievers.

And why is it impossible for some of the righteous standing before Christ to have been both those who administered God's grace and those who received it? The point Christ is making here is when you were comforting the righteous, you were actually comforting the Body of Christ and thus showing your love for the body of Christ, showing yourself to be a disciple of Christ (as he taught that in John 13). But it is entirely true and Biblical that we have been called to administer grace to the world, too, and that even God is moved by the plight and the suffering of the unrighteous and suffers with them. Anybody with kids knows how this works. You hurt my kids, I hurt with them. You help my kids, I am comforted with them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Here's some other scripture that supports this idea of our works being used as evidence of our faith...not used as works upon which we are saved, but used as supporting evidence presented at the judgment to show we belong to Christ and belong in the kingdom (not shut out like the unbelievers and evil doers will be at the judgment).

"...make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5-11 NIV1984)


Our works added to our faith ensure the reality of the calling and election we have received through our faith in Christ and in turn act as a guarantee of our safe passage into the kingdom. We should seek to have this assurance of faith in this life. That is what the point is: People who love God love his people. Each of us has to examine our love for others (our desire to do them good, not harm), particularly our brothers and sisters, as a measuring rod of our love for Christ. A love that ensures we will pass into the kingdom of God, not be locked out and cast away into utter darkness.

Pretty sobering stuff for a Saturday morning.

 

[Alfred Persson]

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (2 Corinthians 5:9-11 NIV1984)

I don't think it unreasonable to think that the righteous works of the righteous will be used as evidence to prove their faith in Christ at the judgment just as we know the evil works of the unrighteous will be used as evidence to condemn them as unbelievers.

And why is it impossible for some of the righteous standing before Christ to have been both those who administered God's grace and those who received it? The point Christ is making here is when you were comforting the righteous, you were actually comforting the Body of Christ and thus showing your love for the body of Christ, showing yourself to be a disciple of Christ (as he taught that in John 13). But it is entirely true and Biblical that we have been called to administer grace to the world, too, and that even God is moved by the plight and the suffering of the unrighteous and suffers with them. Anybody with kids knows how this works. You hurt my kids, I hurt with them. You help my kids, I am comforted with them.

But they weren't proving faith in Christ, they didn't know Him:

34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
(Mat 25:34-40 NKJ)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But they weren't proving faith in Christ, they didn't know Him:

34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
(Mat 25:34-40 NKJ)

It does not say they did not know Christ. It says they did not know him in the form of the suffering. The very fact that they are doing works worthy of Christ's commendation shows they do in fact 'know' Christ. They simply didn't know that the good they did (because they are of Christ) was actually comforting Christ himself.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

IMO, it's wrong to make this passage into some kind of a defense for the existence of distinct groups of people.

It's about being eligible for the kingdom of God because the things you do shows you belong to Christ and the kingdom of God. Each of us is to take this to heart and seek to have the faith that loves Christ by loving others. That is how we know we will be spared on the day of judgment and will enter the kingdom of God.

One of the hardest things to explain to people is how the first and greatest command is fulfilled by the second greatest command, and that's why the second is 'like the first'. To love God IS to love others, and vice versa.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It does not say they did not know Christ. It says they did not know him in the form of the suffering. The very fact that they are doing works worthy of Christ's commendation shows they do in fact 'know' Christ. They simply didn't know that the good they did (because they are of Christ) was actually comforting Christ himself.

sorry, don't see those words in the text...

Perhaps you can bold them for me

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine:
It does not say they did not know Christ. It says they did not know him in the form of the suffering. The very fact that they are doing works worthy of Christ's commendation shows they do in fact 'know' Christ. They simply didn't know that the good they did (because they are of Christ) was actually comforting Christ himself.

sorry, don't see those words in the text...

Perhaps you can bold them for me

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ (Matt. 25:37-39 NIV1984)

We see they did not recognize that what they were doing for the suffering was being done to Christ. But somehow you see it saying they did not know Christ...period. I don't know how one could come to that conclusion. It doesn't say that. But it does plainly say they did not recognize the good they were doing was being done unto Christ.

Honestly, I think you're missing the point if you think this is somehow intended to teach that there is a distinction between 'sheep', 'goats', and 'my brethren'. There's a much more important lesson being taught here.

 

[kjb1769]

The brethren are the believing Jewish remnant that are preaching the gospel of the kingdom during the time of Jacob's trouble.

 

[smaller]

Honestly, I think you're missing the point if you think this is somehow intended to teach that there is a distinction between 'sheep', 'goats', and 'my brethren'. There's a much more important lesson being taught here.

What Alfred is trying to say is that he admits that he has goat works, but none of them count because he is a believer. Therefore he brings up a separate class that is not spoken of in the parable that is not there and does not exist because he's just not facing the fact that believers do in fact do 'goat works' every time they don't do sheep works.

I tried to point this fact out to him but it's tough to swallow sometimes for most believers. Thus their imaginations lead them away from scriptural fact.

s

 

[Alfred Persson]

Originally Posted by Jethro Bodine:
It does not say they did not know Christ. It says they did not know him in the form of the suffering. The very fact that they are doing works worthy of Christ's commendation shows they do in fact 'know' Christ. They simply didn't know that the good they did (because they are of Christ) was actually comforting Christ himself.


37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ (Matt. 25:37-39 NIV1984)

We see they did not recognize that what they were doing for the suffering was being done to Christ. But somehow you see it saying they did not know Christ...period. I don't know how one could come to that conclusion. It doesn't say that. But it does plainly say they did not recognize the good they were doing was being done unto Christ.

Honestly, I think you're missing the point if you think this is somehow intended to teach that there is a distinction between 'sheep', 'goats', and 'my brethren'. There's a much more important lesson being taught here.

Christ claiming kinship with the poor and needy is not Him transformed into an entity of suffering. Its figurative language, not literal.

The three group outline allows a judgment according to works, exist. If only two groups exist, then every text speaking of judgment according to works must be subverted or ignored lest salvation by grace and not works be contradicted, or vice versa.

But with three groups, these verses get put under different headings and no longer contradict each other.

Also the corollary begtween election and reprobation becomes a false dilemma, allowing for more than the elect to be saved, if they repent...according to their works, as the propitiation of Christ covers them:

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

[FONT=&quot]28[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)[/FONT]

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Christ claiming kinship with the poor and needy is not Him transformed into an entity of suffering. Its figurative language, not literal.

Of course it's figurative. Christ identifies so closely with the plight of the suffering that it's as if he is suffering with them. (The author of Hebrews tells us to do the same thing.)

The three group outline allows a judgment according to works, exist.

No. That is categorically a false, damnable doctrine. Jesus did not teach a works salvation.

If only two groups exist, then every text speaking of judgment according to works must be subverted or ignored lest salvation by grace and not works be contradicted, or vice versa.

But with three groups, these verses get put under different headings and no longer contradict each other.

Well, you aren't the first one to think Jesus taught a works salvation.

We know from the whole counsel of the Bible that the righteous person who does right things is not saved by doing those right things but by the faith that motivates them. You are guilty of exactly what the Bible itself warns us of doing--improperly dividing the Word of God, which means don't lift passages of scripture out of context without considering the whole they came from.

Also the corollary begtween election and reprobation becomes a false dilemma, allowing for more than the elect to be saved, if they repent...according to their works, as the propitiation of Christ covers them:

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

[FONT=&quot]28[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)[/FONT]

Again, we know from the WHOLE counsel of scripture that the righteous are saved because they had faith in God's forgiveness, not because they earned salvation through the effort of righteous works. It's impossible for anyone to be righteous enough to earn salvation. Utterly impossible.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No. That is categorically a false, damnable doctrine. Jesus did not teach a works salvation.



Well, you aren't the first one to think Jesus taught a works salvation.

We know from the whole counsel of the Bible that the righteous person who does right things is not saved by doing those right things but by the faith that motivates them. You are guilty of exactly what the Bible itself warns us of doing--improperly dividing the Word of God, which means don't lift passages of scripture out of context without considering the whole they came from.




Again, we know from the WHOLE counsel of scripture that the righteous are saved because they had faith in God's forgiveness, not because they earned salvation through the effort of righteous works. It's impossible for anyone to be righteous enough to earn salvation. Utterly impossible.

Jesus contradicted everything you said above when He said:

[FONT=&quot]those who have done good, to the resurrection of life[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]28[/FONT][FONT=&quot] "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)[/FONT]

Your problem is dogmatism, you refuse to acknowledge reality.

I am not your enemy, I believe in salvation by grace and not works, but there are texts which contradict this.

I didn't make it up.

I proposed a solution that explains how Christ could say what He did, and still not contradict salvation by grace...

Here it is again on the small chance I can break through the programming and show you something new, and better, that you never considered before:

The church (elect) saved by grace, not works, pass over from death into life in verse 24 "and shall not come into judgment", therefore verses 28-29 are NOT about the church, they are about the intermediate and wicked, who are judged according to their works.

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Joh 5:24-29 NKJ)

Works save no one. If a persons works indicate they love light, not darkness then God can save them by grace, write their names in the book of life because God is merciful, not because their works merited it:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev 20:11-1 NKJ)

The church is not being judged in Rev 20:11-15, its a resurrection of the dead who failed to believe in this life. The church was already raised up in the first resurrection/rapture long ago and served with Christ in His Kingdom as kings and priests.

This is a judgment (1000 years later) according to works as it plainly says, and if their works prove they love light, God saves them by grace.

Because apart from incarnate God the Eternal Son---Jesus Christ, no human can do enough works to merit God's kingdom, all are saved by grace.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...I believe in salvation by grace and not works, but there are texts which contradict this.

I didn't make it up.

I proposed a solution that explains how Christ could say what He did, and still not contradict salvation by grace...

Here it is again on the small chance I can break through the programming and show you something new, and better, that you never considered before:

The church (elect) saved by grace, not works, pass over from death into life in verse 24 "and shall not come into judgment", therefore verses 28-29 are NOT about the church, they are about the intermediate and wicked, who are judged according to their works.

In the book of Hebrews, written to the church, we see what essentially amounts to a parallel passage to the Matthew account of the sheep and the goats:

32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For in just a very little while,

“He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38 But my righteous one will live by faith.
And if he shrinks back,
I will not be pleased with him.â€

39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved. (Heb. 10:32-39 NIV1984)



We see the same sympathy for Christ's brethren here as in Matthew 25 with the same promise of being richly rewarded and receiving what has been promised, yet we can see this is also an exhortation to people who are saved by the faith that did those things. So which is it, a passage that teaches salvation is by grace through faith, or a passage that teaches salvation is a reward for doing righteous things who don't know about Christ but can be saved nevertheless?

Works save no one. If a persons works indicate they love light, not darkness then God can save them by grace, write their names in the book of life because God is merciful, not because their works merited it:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(Rev 20:11-1 NKJ)

The church is not being judged in Rev 20:11-15, its a resurrection of the dead who failed to believe in this life.

I think you are mistaken. Keep in mind, those who rebelled at the end of the thousand years are being judged here, too. And, IMO, among them are those who never made it to a point of accountability in regard to righteousness in this present life (the stillborn, the retarded...) but who nonetheless have a knowledge of Christ at this point, for they have been dwelling in the thousand year reign with Christ. Even they do not fit into this third category of person you say exists who has no knowledge of Christ and is therefore must be judged by their works at this point in history (note: I do not disagree with the fact that there are people who do not have the knowledge of Christ but who are still counted righteous--Romans 1).

The church was already raised up in the first resurrection/rapture long ago and served with Christ in His Kingdom as kings and priests.

But so were the people ignorant of God's grace spoken of in Romans 1. People who do now know about Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment.

This is a judgment (1000 years later) according to works as it plainly says, and if their works prove they love light, God saves them by grace.

Because apart from incarnate God the Eternal Son---Jesus Christ, no human can do enough works to merit God's kingdom, all are saved by grace.

 

[Alfred Persson]

We see the same sympathy for Christ's brethren here as in Matthew 25 with the same promise of being richly rewarded and receiving what has been promised, yet we can see this is also an exhortation to people who are saved by the faith that did those things. So which is it, a passage that teaches salvation is by grace through faith, or a passage that teaches salvation is a reward for doing righteous things who don't know about Christ but can be saved nevertheless?

T[FONT=&quot]here is a judgment according to works in Mat 25:33-40, where works that prove one has unknowingly received Christ also saves.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Mat 25:31-40 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Clearly this is a third group judged according to works…according to their own conscience:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. (Rom 2:14-16 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So its not "us only" Christ died for, His sacrifice allows God hear the cases of those who died without Christ, but had proved by their works they didn't hate the light. They just didn't know Christ before they died. These acted well according to their conscience which now excuses them for sins done in ignorance of God's law.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Same here, Judgment Day happens a thousand years after the church has been reigning with Christ as Kings and priests in His kingdom, therefore "the dead" who rise up from Hades are NOT the church:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev 20:11-13 NKJ)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Yet the book of life is opened indicating some of these would be written into it, after passing the judgment according to their works.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Had these believed in Christ while alive they would have been raptured or resurrected a 1000 years earlier at Christ's second coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16) their salvation wouldn't be in question (John 5:24) now. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But they didn't, they died not believing in Christ therefore they are "the dead" in Hades and Death. AND these are judged just BEFORE they are raised to determine what sort of resurrection body they will be raised in, glorious or abhorrent. (Daniel 12:2-3; Isaiah 66:25; John 5:28-29) [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]They are the third group, the "intermediate" being neither the elect or the wicked, they are the "average sinners" who, if they prove they would have received Christ into their homes if only they knew He was in need (Mat 25:33-40), are saved by God's grace, because THE propitiation of Christ isn't for "us only", its also for them. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)[/FONT]