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    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

3 groups exist in Mt c.25:32-46: sheep,goats,my brethren

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But this does not explain why the author of Hebrews speaks to those saved by faith in Christ in the same manner as those you say received the reward of salvation for their works, as I showed you in my post. Explain why these people of faith, who have a clear knowledge of Christ, are also spoken of as receiving salvation as a reward for work.

While many of us Christians do believe that there will be those who do not have the knowledge of God and will be judged by what they did or didn't do according to their own conscience, I don't believe Matthew 25 is a text that demonstrates that truth. But don't get me wrong, I respect and admire your interest in the scriptures and how you can come to the conclusion that the people in Matthew 25 and Rev. 20 are people saved by their works, not by faith. It is clear that all people who are condemned are condemned by their works.

For the (earned) wages of sin is death, but the (unearned) gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23 NIV1984 emphasis and parenthesis mine)
 
But this does not explain why the author of Hebrews speaks to those saved by faith in Christ in the same manner as those you say received the reward of salvation for their works, as I showed you in my post. Explain why these people of faith, who have a clear knowledge of Christ, are also spoken of as receiving salvation as a reward for work.

While many of us Christians do believe that there will be those who do not have the knowledge of God and will be judged by what they did or didn't do according to their own conscience, I don't believe Matthew 25 is a text that demonstrates that truth. But don't get me wrong, I respect and admire your interest in the scriptures and how you can come to the conclusion that the people in Matthew 25 and Rev. 20 are people saved by their works, not by faith. It is clear that all people who are condemned are condemned by their works.

For the (earned) wages of sin is death, but the (unearned) gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23 NIV1984 emphasis and parenthesis mine)

I apply all texts saying salvation is by grace, not by works, to those who believe in this life.

Those who die unbelieving or, as seen in Mat c. 25, are unbelieving when Christ comes, who survived the Antichrist etc.
, are still saved by grace (for its impossible for any man (apart from Christ) to merit eternal life in God's Kingdom), but they must do the equivalent of "receiving Christ" as seen in Mat. c. 25.

In other words, t
[FONT=&quot]here is a group God elected unto salvation before the foundation of the world, and there is a group God didn't elect (lest He override their free will) who are judged according to their works.

So verses teaching salvation in this life by grace and not works, through faith in God the Eternal Son Jesus the Christ of God, risen from the dead, apply to the church...not the non elect who fail to repent and believe in this life.

If the non-elect believe in Christ in this life, then just like the elect, they were saved to the uttermost "when they believed" because God is not partial.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Joh 3:16-18 KJV)


The non elect ARE covered by Christ's propitiation for sins and still can be saved if they die without Christ, but in Hades repent and "do good":

2 AndHe Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Joh 5:28-29 KJV)

As for all those billions of folks Frenchman John Calvin said are reprobated by God to eternal punishment because of God's good pleasure and will and not because they did anything good or bad...they don't exist.

John Calvin erred thinking there is a corollary, that if God didn't elect to salvation, then it meant one was reprobated into eternal punishment.

His conclusion was a false dilemma because he overruled all those texts that teach the non elect are judged according to their works.


Matthew c. 25:33-46 is an excellent illustration of this. These sheep are judged worthy recipients of God's Mercy because they received Christ, even though they didn't know it, through their acts of charity:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
(Mat 25:31-40 NKJ)



So these "sheep" are not the church who believe in Christ in this world, and so saved by grace not works. These folks didn't know Jesus, didn't recognize their acts of light and love were done to Him.


So God judged them worthy of entry into the Kingdom, while the goats who also didn't know Christ, but failed to do works proving they loved light, are condemned as wicked.


Confirming the sheep are not the church is the fact the church is raptured before Christ descends unto the earth at His second coming. These being judged are the billions of folks still alive after the wars and plagues that occur in the End Time. (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16);


Sealing the fact these cannot be the church, whose salvation is by Grace through faith in God the Eternal Son, the Christ of God is the fact their salvation wouldn't be in question (John 5:24).


Same here, this Judgment Day happens a 1000 years AFTER after the church has been reigning with Christ as Kings and priests in His Millennial Kingdom Rev 20:4-7), therefore "the dead" who rise up from Hades are NOT the church:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev 20:11-13 NKJ)

Yet the book of life is opened indicating some of these would be written into it, after passing the judgment according to their works.


Had these believed in Christ while alive they would have been raptured or resurrected a 1000 years earlier at Christ's second coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16) their salvation wouldn't be in question (John 5:24) now.

But they didn't, they died not believing in Christ therefore they are "the dead" in Hades and Death. AND these are judged just BEFORE they are raised to determine what sort of resurrection body they will be raised in, glorious or abhorrent. (Daniel 12:2-3; Isaiah 66:25; John 5:28-29)

They are judged by their works being they weren't elected by God before the foundation of the world .



They are the "average sinners" (middling people; the intermediate) who, if they prove they would have received Christ into their homes if only they knew He was in need (Mat 25:33-40), are saved by God's grace, because THE propitiation of Christ isn't for "us only", its also for them.



2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)





So Calvin was wrong, among the non elect are those whose works merit God's being merciful to them, and so they can be saved...even if they died not knowing about Christ, or believing in a non-Christian religion. After they die, while in Hades (which according to Job 14:13) may not be unpleasant for all), they learn the truth about God (1 Pet 3:18ff; 4:4-6; 1 Cor 5:5) and repent, living according to God in the spirit so their spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus:


34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
(Act 10:34-36 KJV)




Paul speaking clearly about the non elect judged according to their works, according to their own conscience, says:

The righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality
;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11
For there is no partiality with God.(Rom 2:5-11 NKJ)

Had God elected a few to be saved at the foundation of the world and dammed eternally all the rest, there is partiality with God. But Calvin is wrong, God didn't do that.

IN fact, even the spiritually dead who mock and speak evil of Christian preachers, willfully rejecting the gospel in this life, can reconsider in Hell after they die:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

EVEN THE SINNING CHURCH GOER can rethink his evil ways in Hell, and repent and be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus, Judgment Day:

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)


What Christ and His apostles taught in the Bible is Orthodox, what arose centuries later is not.


So Calvin was wrong.


All are saved through Christ's sacrifice, no one is saved apart from Christ. All are saved because they loved the light of Christ and not darkness, whether they did this receiving Christ directly, or by the receiving Him through their works of charity.

There is no partiality with God:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

(Act 10:34-35 NKJ)



As I have repeatedly explained to you, those texts you cited apply to the church saved "to the uttermost" (Heb7:25) by grace, not works. Upon physical death they immediately go into the presence of the LORD (Luke 23:43; 16:22; "depart and be with Christ" Phil 1:23).


And the wicked who eternally sinned go into torments in the dark places of Hades to await their fearful judgment.


But all the billions of people who died not knowing Christ, who didn't sin eternally in this life (Mat 12:31f; 1 John 5:16), like the little old lady who only went to church to play bingo...in Hades they learn what their situation is fully, and all who repent and believe in Jesus will be raised up into life on Judgment Day.


That's why its called "Judgment Day" and not "execution day", the book of life is opened the names of those who "done good" are written therein to join the names of the church written into from the foundation of the world.


So the church, who had been reigning with Christ for a 1000 years, isn't being judged in Rev 20:11-15. Only the non elect, because of the church it is written:


13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. (Col 1:13-14 NKJ)

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. (Joh 5:24-27 NKJ)

That's the church, the Bride of Christ, therefore NOT those invited to attend the wedding. Those invited are these others, for whom Christ also died, not for us only is His propitiation, judged according to their works….those who done good, rise to the resurrection of life from Hades:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)

Notice all are judged BEFORE they are raised to determine what sort of resurrection body they will be raised in, glorious or abhorrent. (Daniel 12:2-3; Isaiah 66:25; John 5:28-29)
[/FONT]
 
For example, the Church which is saved by grace, not works, through faith BUT these "sheep" are saved by works done in ignorance of Jesus, hence its impossible they symbolize faith in Him
I am trying to follow your reasoning, please clarify---in your theology regarding grace/works, sheep/goats is the church saved by “grace alone†or must those who will be saved “work the works of Godâ€, i.e., must we “do†something in order to become “sheepâ€? Can you provide an example of “works done in ignorance of Jesusâ€? Thanks.
 
I am trying to follow your reasoning, please clarify---in your theology regarding grace/works, sheep/goats is the church saved by “grace alone” or must those who will be saved “work the works of God”, i.e., must we “do” something in order to become “sheep”? Can you provide an example of “works done in ignorance of Jesus”? Thanks.



Mat c. 25 has three groups, "my brethren" (=church), sheep (saved by works), goats (dammed because of their works). The sheep "received Christ in ignorance," that is they did works that were equivalent to loving Christ:

[FONT=&quot]31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
(Mat 25:31-40 NKJ)
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]


So these "sheep" are not the church who believe in Christ in this world, and so saved by grace not works. These folks didn't know Jesus, didn't recognize their acts of light and love were done to Him.


So God judged them worthy of entry into the Kingdom, while the goats who also didn't know Christ, but failed to do works proving they loved light, are condemned as wicked.


Confirming the sheep are not the church is the fact the church is raptured before Christ descends unto the earth at His second coming. These being judged are the billions of folks still alive after the wars and plagues that occur in the End Time. (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16);


Sealing the fact these cannot be the church, whose salvation is by Grace through faith in God the Eternal Son, the Christ of God is the fact their salvation wouldn't be in question (John 5:24).


Same here, this Judgment Day happens a 1000 years AFTER after the church has been reigning with Christ as Kings and priests in His Millennial Kingdom Rev 20:4-7), therefore "the dead" who rise up from Hades are NOT the church:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev 20:11-13 NKJ)

Yet the book of life is opened indicating some of these would be written into it, after passing the judgment according to their works.


Had these believed in Christ while alive they would have been raptured or resurrected a 1000 years earlier at Christ's second coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16) their salvation wouldn't be in question (John 5:24) now.

But they didn't, they died not believing in Christ therefore they are "the dead" in Hades and Death. AND these are judged just BEFORE they are raised to determine what sort of resurrection body they will be raised in, glorious or abhorrent. (Daniel 12:2-3; Isaiah 66:25; John 5:28-29)

They are judged by their works being they weren't elected by God before the foundation of the world .



They are the "average sinners" (middling people; the intermediate) who, if they prove they would have received Christ into their homes if only they knew He was in need (Mat 25:33-40), are saved by God's grace, because THE propitiation of Christ isn't for "us only", its also for them.



2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)





So Calvin was wrong, among the non elect are those whose works merit God's being merciful to them, and so they can be saved...even if they died not knowing about Christ, or believing in a non-Christian religion. After they die, while in Hades (which according to Job 14:13) may not be unpleasant for all), they learn the truth about God (1 Pet 3:18ff; 4:4-6; 1 Cor 5:5) and repent, living according to God in the spirit so their spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus:


34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
(Act 10:34-36 KJV)




Paul speaking clearly about the non elect judged according to their works, according to their own conscience, says:

The righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality
;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11
For there is no partiality with God.(Rom 2:5-11 NKJ)

Had God elected a few to be saved at the foundation of the world and dammed eternally all the rest, there is partiality with God. But Calvin is wrong, God didn't do that.

IN fact, even the spiritually dead who mock and speak evil of Christian preachers, willfully rejecting the gospel in this life, can reconsider in Hell after they die:

4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

EVEN THE SINNING CHURCH GOER can rethink his evil ways in Hell, and repent and be saved in the Day of the Lord Jesus, Judgment Day:

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 NKJ)


What Christ and His apostles taught in the Bible is Orthodox, what arose centuries later is not.


So Calvin was wrong.


All are saved through Christ's sacrifice, no one is saved apart from Christ. All are saved because they loved the light of Christ and not darkness, whether they did this receiving Christ directly, or by the receiving Him through their works of charity.

There is no partiality with God:

34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.
35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

(Act 10:34-35 NKJ)



All who believe in Christ in this life are the church saved "to the uttermost" (Heb7:25) by grace, not works. Upon physical death they immediately go into the presence of the LORD (Luke 23:43; 16:22; "depart and be with Christ" Phil 1:23).


And the wicked who eternally sinned go into torments in the dark places of Hades to await their fearful judgment.


But all the billions of people who died not knowing Christ, who didn't sin eternally in this life (Mat 12:31f; 1 John 5:16), like the little old lady who only went to church to play bingo...in Hades they learn what their situation is fully, and all who repent and believe in Jesus will be raised up into life on Judgment Day.


That's why its called "Judgment Day" and not "execution day", the book of life is opened the names of those who "done good" are written therein to join the names of the church written into from the foundation of the world.


So the church, who had been reigning with Christ for a 1000 years, isn't being judged in Rev 20:11-15. Only the non elect, because of the church it is written:


13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. (Col 1:13-14 NKJ)

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. (Joh 5:24-27 NKJ)

That's the church, the Bride of Christ, therefore NOT those invited to attend the wedding. Those invited are these others, for whom Christ also died, not for us only is His propitiation, judged according to their works….those who done good, rise to the resurrection of life from Hades:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)

Notice all are judged BEFORE they are raised to determine what sort of resurrection body they will be raised in, glorious or abhorrent. (Daniel 12:2-3; Isaiah 66:25; John 5:28-29)[/FONT]
 
We understand it can be difficult sometimes but just a friendly reminder from the ToS:

2.7: Please keep posts down to a respectable length
 
Mat c. 25 has three groups, "my brethren" (=church), sheep (saved by works), goats (dammed because of their works). The sheep "received Christ in ignorance,"*that is they did works that were equivalent to loving Christ:

Can you elaborate more on how one receives Christ in ignorance - scriptures please?

But all the billions of people who died not knowing Christ, who didn't sin eternally in this life (Mat 12:31f; 1 John 5:16), like the little old lady who only went to church to play bingo...in Hades they learn what their situation is fully, and all who repent and believe in Jesus will be raised up into life on Judgment Day.

I would disagree – there are no “second chances” after death. The Bible is clear – man dies and then man is judged — no second chance.

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment...
(Heb 9:27)
 
Mat c. 25 has three groups, "my brethren" (=church), sheep (saved by works)

No one is "saved by works."

The "brethern" in this story are the apostles. The sheep and the goats are those of the nations (and Israel) judged for how they treated the apostles: the messengers Christ sent throughout the world with the gospel.

The background for understanding this passage in Matthew 25 can be found here:

{16} "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. {17} "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; {18} and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. {19} "But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. {20} "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. {21} "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. {22} "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. {23} "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:16-23 (NASB)

And here:

{34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:34-35 (NASB)

And what did - in fact happen to these, His brothers?

{24} Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. {25} Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. {26} I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; {27} I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. {28} Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches. 2 Corinthians 11:23-28 (NASB)

The treatment Christ's messengers (His apostles) received at the hands of both Jew and Gentile alike would determine their reward at the judgment.
 
Can you elaborate more on how one receives Christ in ignorance - scriptures please?
I think he means people who receive Christ despite their ignorance of the historical facts about Christ and that he even exists.

I think what he means is there are people who demonstrate faith in God, but who have a severely limited knowledge of God, through their works. So in effect, that 'faith' about that which they understand by conscience and instinct alone saves them.

They don't know the specific facts about God and Christ, but through conscience they believe the fundamental truth that every human will be held accountable for the bad things they do to others, therefore, they obey their conscience and seek to not hurt other people, even help them.

I agree with the concept. But not necessarily how he's applying it to Matt. 25 and Rev 20...that is, if what I've said is what he means by 'receiving Christ in ignorance'.
 
No one is "saved by works."

The "brethern" in this story are the apostles. The sheep and the goats are those of the nations (and Israel) judged for how they treated the apostles: the messengers Christ sent throughout the world with the gospel.

The background for understanding this passage in Matthew 25 can be found here:

{16} "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. {17} "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; {18} and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. {19} "But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. {20} "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. {21} "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. {22} "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. {23} "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:16-23 (NASB)

And here:

{34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:34-35 (NASB)

And what did - in fact happen to these, His brothers?

{24} Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. {25} Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. {26} I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; {27} I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. {28} Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches. 2 Corinthians 11:23-28 (NASB)

The treatment Christ's messengers (His apostles) received at the hands of both Jew and Gentile alike would determine their reward at the judgment.
This is interesting, but, like Alfred's interpretation, I think it limits the scope of the righteous sheep too much.

Along with Alfred's interpretation, I will meditate on your's, too.
 
I think he means people who receive Christ despite their ignorance of the historical facts about Christ and that he even exists.

I think what he means is there are people who demonstrate faith in God, but who have a severely limited knowledge of God, through their works. So in effect, that 'faith' about that which they understand by conscience and instinct alone saves them.

They don't know the specific facts about God and Christ, but through conscience they believe the fundamental truth that every human will be held accountable for the bad things they do to others, therefore, they obey their conscience and seek to not hurt other people, even help them.

I agree with the concept. But not necessarily how he's applying it to Matt. 25 and Rev 20...that is, if what I've said is what he means by 'receiving Christ in ignorance'.

I would agree in principle with your position - God is holy and just and He doesn’t require people to respond to that which they have never heard. He does, however hold us accountable for what has been revealed to us...
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
(Rom 5:13)​
Do you believe there will be “second chances†after death to repent as Alfred suggests?
 
Do you believe there will be “second chances†after death to repent as Alfred suggests?
No, I do not.

But I'm not sure Alfred was suggesting that. I think he says the works a man does in this life, whether in the full knowledge of Jesus Christ and the law or not, determines one's fate, later, at the judgment.

Well, now that I'm remembering, maybe he was suggesting that, lol. I'd have to go back and look at his posts.
 
No one is "saved by works."

The "brethern" in this story are the apostles. The sheep and the goats are those of the nations (and Israel) judged for how they treated the apostles: the messengers Christ sent throughout the world with the gospel.

The background for understanding this passage in Matthew 25 can be found here:

{16} "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. {17} "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; {18} and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. {19} "But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. {20} "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. {21} "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. {22} "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. {23} "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:16-23 (NASB)

And here:

{34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:34-35 (NASB)

And what did - in fact happen to these, His brothers?

{24} Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. {25} Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. {26} I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren; {27} I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. {28} Apart from such external things, there is the daily pressure on me of concern for all the churches. 2 Corinthians 11:23-28 (NASB)

The treatment Christ's messengers (His apostles) received at the hands of both Jew and Gentile alike would determine their reward at the judgment.
Okay, Stormcrow, after my last post to you I tucked my 1979 NIV under my arm and headed to the throne room to meditate on your interpretation of the Matt. 25 passage (not THE Throne Room, but the inglorious porcelain throne room in the hall, aka, the reading room).

Almost immediately, the 'cup of cold water' Jesus spoke about came to mind:

40 “He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41 Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet’s reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man’s reward. 42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward.” (Matthew 10:40-42 NIV1984 online)

It's all there. This is essentially another version of the Matthew 25 passage. Whoever receives a righteous disciple of Christ's...receives Christ. Whoever considers the welfare of the righteous disciple of Christ, is in fact considering the welfare of, and comforting Christ himself. And the person who does that..."certainly will not lose his reward". The reward we see given out or withheld at the judgment in Matthew 25 according to how we treated Christ's brothers, his disciples.

What we do, or don't do for the disciples of Christ is indicative of our relationship with Christ himself, and will be used as evidence to determine our status as sheep that are saved, or goats that are destroyed. .

This should be no surprise to us since we know that the true people of God love the people of God, while those who are not a part of the people of God despise the people of God and show no comfort or mercy towards them.

Stick a feather in your hat, Stormcrow. I think your interpretation has a lot of merit. I would enlarge the group of Christ's brothers who are comforted to mean all disciples of Christ, from the prophet on down to the righteous man, but particularly those who serve on Christ's behalf and are in need of comfort. Let us all remember that next time we support those in ministry...or just give a glass of cold water to a thirsty saint here in these forums, for...

"...you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving." (Col 3:24 NIV1984)
 
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No, I do not.

But I'm not sure Alfred was suggesting that. I think he says the works a man does in this life, whether in the full knowledge of Jesus Christ and the law or not, determines one's fate, later, at the judgment.

Well, now that I'm remembering, maybe he was suggesting that, lol. I'd have to go back and look at his posts.

Yes, i did say that. I said Calvin reversed this, rather than a select few being saved, its few that are lost.

Although numerically they may be many on the broad road, as a percentage of the total population, its small.

Even the text where Christ says "few will be saved"; in context He is referring to few Jews of His "evil and wicked" generation, not few of all mankind throughout history:

23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying,`Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you,`I do not know you, where you are from,'
26 "then you will begin to say,`We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'
27 "But He will say,`I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
28 "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
29 "They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.
(Luk 13:23-29 NKJ)

Verse 29 actually implies the reverse, many will be saved, just few from Jesus' evil and wicked generation that saw Him personally, but rejected Him.
 
Yes, i did say that. I said Calvin reversed this, rather than a select few being saved, its few that are lost.
Calvin got many things wrong but the Bible is clear - only a few will find eternal life and there are no 'second chances' after one departs this world...death and then comes the judgment.

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
(Mat 7:13-14)
 
Calvin got many things wrong but the Bible is clear - only a few will find eternal life and there are no 'second chances' after one departs this world...death and then comes the judgment.
"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
(Mat 7:13-14)

That text didn't prove your point at all. For example, what is the broad way precisely...

What is the narrow gate? It can't be Christ, because Christ is the way the truth and the life, He doesn't lead someone to life, He brings them into life.

AND how many are "many?" Many can be a few thousand, or tens of thousands. But you cannot prove from the context, where Christ's audience is in the hundreds, and Israel as a nation has only a few million in it...that it means billions.

That would be "unhistorical."

The broad road is identified in the context, its obeying the natural meaning of God's Word, against the word of the false prophets:

12 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
(Mat 7:12-24 NKJ)

AND only by accepting its testimony Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and obediently believing in Him, does one find life.

So the narrow road is the literal meaning of scripture, doing what it says...which is hard.

Yes, many are on the broad road into Hell, nothing I said denied that. But many is a relative term, many in ancient Israel would not be "billions." We must interpret as Christ meant it, and many would then be many of His generation, evil and wicked that asked for a sign:

23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying,`Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you,`I do not know you, where you are from,'
26 "then you will begin to say,`We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'
27 "But He will say,`I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
28 "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
29 "They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. (Luk 13:23-29 NKJ)

So its many of Christ's evil and wicked generation, not from the rest of the world for they will come from the east and the west, and the north and the south, and sit down in the Kingdom.

So the text doesn't support your allegation God will save only a few of all mankind. Indeed, in context it says the precise opposite, apart from many of Christ's generation of Jews in Palestine in the first century, many more will come from the four corners of the earth...
 
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I agree with you, Alfred, that the narrow road is the road of doing and practicing the things Jesus has just got done talking about. Simple observation shows this to be true just in the church alone. But I also believe this is true among both Jews and gentiles alike.

It's obvious more gentiles will be in the kingdom than natural Jews, simply because there are more of us. But that doesn't necessarily mean a greater percentage of our larger number will live for Christ and walk the narrow road Christ describes than among the smaller number of Jews born into the world.

I don't think the scriptures you cite teach us that a higher percentage of the much bigger group of gentiles will be saved than from among the smaller group of natural Jews.
 
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This idea that people can be saved by their faith in a very limited knowledge of God (not even knowing who Christ is), that faith being measured by what they do, is certainly Biblically defensible. But I think it's inaccurate to try to make Matthew 25 and Rev 20 be texts that prove that.
 
IMO, it's wrong to make this passage into some kind of a defense for the existence of distinct groups of people.

It's about being eligible for the kingdom of God because the things you do shows you belong to Christ and the kingdom of God. Each of us is to take this to heart and seek to have the faith that loves Christ by loving others. That is how we know we will be spared on the day of judgment and will enter the kingdom of God.

One of the hardest things to explain to people is how the first and greatest command is fulfilled by the second greatest command, and that's why the second is 'like the first'. To love God IS to love others, and vice versa.

Excellent post. :thumbsup


**********

The sheep and the brethren are one and the same.

Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Only the people who do the will of God on earth will enter into eternal life after death.

Matthew 7:21-23Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

The righteous deeds that a believer did are no longer remembered by God if this person sins sins that lead to death (mortal - spiritually deadly sins).

Ezekiel 33:12-20 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”
 
I believe that there are few saved but this few is relative. There have been billions of people born on earth since Adam and Eve so a few saved (of these billions) would be about how many? Rhetorical question. :)

Scripture does warn us to strive to be one of these few.

Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Acts 24:16 This being so, I myself always strive to have a conscience without offense toward God and men.


Peter asks this rhetorical question:

1 Peter 4:18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

Paul leaves no one in suspense:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 .......when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
That text didn't prove your point at all. For example, what is the broad way precisely...

What is the narrow gate? It can't be Christ, because Christ is the way the truth and the life, He doesn't lead someone to life, He brings them into life.

AND how many are "many?" Many can be a few thousand, or tens of thousands. But you cannot prove from the context, where Christ's audience is in the hundreds, and Israel as a nation has only a few million in it...that it means billions.

The word of God leads us to life – “faith comes by hearing the word of God”. You appear to misunderstand the context of the passage – ‘few find eternal life’, i.e., few of all of humanity that has ever existed. God alone knows that number. Many do not find eternal life – not because it is hard to find, but because they prefer to walk in the “broad way” – the way that leads to destruction.
 
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