3 questions....who has the answers?

[bgriff]

Struggling with these three questions and I can not get a good answer from anyone. I want real answers not the usual..."it's not ours to know"..."that's God's plan"..."you can ask God when you get to heaven". So can anyone tell me....

Question 1
If there has never been a time without God and there will never be a time without God...if he has always been and will always be and he is the creator of "EVERYTHING", then where was God before he created anything? If he's always been then he had to be someplace before he created anything...right?

Question 2
If heaven is a perfect creation and has always been a perfect creation where there is no evil, not hurt, no want, no greed and no jealousy...then why did Lucifer try and put himself above God? How would that be possible if heaven was a perfect creation where jealousy and ego does not exist?

Question 3
If the Garden of Eden was a perfect creation with no evil, no death and no sin. then how was Satan as a serpent, allowed into the Garden to tempt Eve? Isn't Satan sin incarnate? It seems to me that he would have only been allowed into the Garden "AFTER" Eve sinned.

Answers?

 

[seekandlisten]

Struggling with these three questions and I can not get a good answer from anyone. I want real answers not the usual..."it's not ours to know"..."that's God's plan"..."you can ask God when you get to heaven". So can anyone tell me....

In looking at these questions I wonder if there really is an 'answer' for them as they deal in areas that are merely subject to speculation and opinion wouldn't you agree?

Question 1
If there has never been a time without God and there will never be a time without God...if he has always been and will always be and he is the creator of "EVERYTHING", then where was God before he created anything? If he's always been then he had to be someplace before he created anything...right?

We really can't say anything in regards to the 'uncreated realm' now can we? We only have the 'created realm' to observe and come to conclusions on.

Question 2
If heaven is a perfect creation and has always been a perfect creation where there is no evil, not hurt, no want, no greed and no jealousy...then why did Lucifer try and put himself above God? How would that be possible if heaven was a perfect creation where jealousy and ego does not exist?

'Lucifer' didn't try and put himself above 'God' to my knowledge. 'He' didn't like the fact that humans were created to be higher than angels and 'he' would have to bow to them I believe was his reason for being 'cast out'.

Question 3
If the Garden of Eden was a perfect creation with no evil, no death and no sin. then how was Satan as a serpent, allowed into the Garden to tempt Eve? Isn't Satan sin incarnate? It seems to me that he would have only been allowed into the Garden "AFTER" Eve sinned.

'Satan' is/was the 'ruler' of this world so why wouldn't he be allowed in the 'Garden'.

Answers?

I don't know what kind of 'answers' you are looking for but here are some of my random speculations/opinions.

 

[glorydaz]

Struggling with these three questions and I can not get a good answer from anyone. I want real answers not the usual..."it's not ours to know"..."that's God's plan"..."you can ask God when you get to heaven". So can anyone tell me....

Question 1
If there has never been a time without God and there will never be a time without God...if he has always been and will always be and he is the creator of "EVERYTHING", then where was God before he created anything? If he's always been then he had to be someplace before he created anything...right?

No, He didn't have to be someplace. God is spirit and is everywhere at all times.

Question 2
If heaven is a perfect creation and has always been a perfect creation where there is no evil, not hurt, no want, no greed and no jealousy...then why did Lucifer try and put himself above God? How would that be possible if heaven was a perfect creation where jealousy and ego does not exist?

You're assuming God has never allowed iniquity in heaven....heaven is God's dwelling place. He chose to give His creations free will. He did so with the "anointed cherub", and therefore the sin born of pride entered into the most beautiful of the angelic beings.

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Question 3
If the Garden of Eden was a perfect creation with no evil, no death and no sin. then how was Satan as a serpent, allowed into the Garden to tempt Eve? Isn't Satan sin incarnate? It seems to me that he would have only been allowed into the Garden "AFTER" Eve sinned.

Again, you assume God didn't have a plan for mankind when He created Adam and Eve...allowing them to be tempted and exercise their free will. God not only provided the means for Adam and Eve to sin, but He provided the cure for sin at the same time. In the same way, we don't keep our children locked in a padded cell. They must learn to interact with their environment or they will never grow to their full potential.

Answers?

You really should know that the Creator of the Universe is way too far above our human understanding. It's like an ant trying to understand where the man goes when he gets in his car and drives to work.

 

[watchman F]

Well I do not know the answers but would like to address some of the answers given by seekandlisten

Question 2
If heaven is a perfect creation and has always been a perfect creation where there is no evil, not hurt, no want, no greed and no jealousy...then why did Lucifer try and put himself above God? How would that be possible if heaven was a perfect creation where jealousy and ego does not exist?

'Lucifer' didn't try and put himself above 'God' to my knowledge. 'He' didn't like the fact that humans were created to be higher than angels and 'he' would have to bow to them I believe was his reason for being 'cast out'.

Where did you get this belief from? Scripture? If so, where is it found chapter and verse?

Question 3
If the Garden of Eden was a perfect creation with no evil, no death and no sin. then how was Satan as a serpent, allowed into the Garden to tempt Eve? Isn't Satan sin incarnate? It seems to me that he would have only been allowed into the Garden "AFTER" Eve sinned.

'Satan' is/was the 'ruler' of this world so why wouldn't he be allowed in the 'Garden'.

Adam ruled the Earth realm until the fall, satan took over because of the fall, and Christ is returning and the 2nd coming to reclaim it.

 

[chestertonrules]

Struggling with these three questions and I can not get a good answer from anyone. I want real answers not the usual..."it's not ours to know"..."that's God's plan"..."you can ask God when you get to heaven". So can anyone tell me....

Question 1
If there has never been a time without God and there will never be a time without God...if he has always been and will always be and he is the creator of "EVERYTHING", then where was God before he created anything? If he's always been then he had to be someplace before he created anything...right?

Question 2
If heaven is a perfect creation and has always been a perfect creation where there is no evil, not hurt, no want, no greed and no jealousy...then why did Lucifer try and put himself above God? How would that be possible if heaven was a perfect creation where jealousy and ego does not exist?

Question 3
If the Garden of Eden was a perfect creation with no evil, no death and no sin. then how was Satan as a serpent, allowed into the Garden to tempt Eve? Isn't Satan sin incarnate? It seems to me that he would have only been allowed into the Garden "AFTER" Eve sinned.

Answers?

1) God doesn't exist in a place, places exist within God. He created the material world.

2) Heaven has not always been perfect. Imperfect creatures with free will are going to sin.

3) You assume that the story is literal. I don't.

 

[watchman F]

3) You assume that the story is literal. I don't.

Assume, of course the story is literal. Don;t all christian believe the bible?

 

[chestertonrules]

3) You assume that the story is literal. I don't.

Assume, of course the story is literal. Don;t all christian believe the bible?

I believe the bible is the true Word of God.

I don't believe that it is all literal, however. It contains parables, analogies, and illustrations to help us understand God and our relationship to him.

 

[stranger]

bgriff asked:

Question 1
If there has never been a time without God and there will never be a time without God...if he has always been and will always be and he is the creator of "EVERYTHING", then where was God before he created anything? If he's always been then he had to be someplace before he created anything...right?

Hi bgriff,
Fair question - where presupposes a place and a place presupposes creation. Genesis simply says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Prior to creation we could speak of God only without reference to the created order or where. God is Spirit and doesn't have to be anywhere in the sense that you and I do and are tied to time and space.

Question 2
If heaven is a perfect creation and has always been a perfect creation where there is no evil, no hurt, no want, no greed and no jealousy...then why did Lucifer try and put himself above God? How would that be possible if heaven was a perfect creation where jealousy and ego does not exist?

A perfect creation by definition would be before the fall of the angel(s) who became Satan. So I would say that when heaven was a perfect creation there was no Satan - only the angel that had the inherent capacity to change in relation to God.

Question 3
If the Garden of Eden was a perfect creation with no evil, no death and no sin. then how was Satan as a serpent, allowed into the Garden to tempt Eve? Isn't Satan sin incarnate? It seems to me that he would have only been allowed into the Garden "AFTER" Eve sinned.

Not sure what you mean by 'isn't Satan's sin incarnate?' The fall in the angelic realm preceded the fall of Adam and Eve. So I would say that the perfect creation (in Eden) was then affected by Satan's enterance but could not, of itself corrupt either creation nor Adam and Eve. Both falls (of the angel that was later called Satan - and of man) are in primary reference to God not each other.

So the Christian world view affirms that God is not the author of evil. Hope this opens up a discussion for your questions.

blessings

 

[veteran]

God's Word does tell us what Satan's rebellion was about. He coveted God's Throne, wanted to be GOD in His Place (Ezek.28). Before that, even Satan served God, as it is written he was once "perfect in his ways". Because he was able to rebel shows God created the angels also with free will. Understanding free will is important to grasp how rebellion could happen even then. True love always involves free wil.

Per Romans 8 by Apostle Paul, the creation today also seeks a release from bondage God placed it in. That exposes the idea that this world of today has never been an example of God's perfect creation, but instead has been placed in bondage to imperfection, along with us. God's Word reveals bits about His original perfect creation before Satan rebelled, and even compares it with the next world when He promised to create a new heavens and a new earth where only righteousness dwells.

 

[watchman F]

3) You assume that the story is literal. I don't.

Assume, of course the story is literal. Don;t all christian believe the bible?

I believe the bible is the true Word of God.

I don't believe that it is all literal, however. It contains parables, analogies, and illustrations to help us understand God and our relationship to him.

This is true Jesus did speak in parable, and God did use O.T. events to shadow what Jesus would do in His first coming and also what He will do in His 2nd coming. He also uses illustrations and then tells us exactly what they mean. However unless the context of the scripture shows us that something is a parable, shadow analogy, or illustration, then we must except it as written. What we cannot do is arbitrarily begen to decide what we will spiritualize and what we will accept as literal. Anything that doesn't by the text itself show itself to be other that literal, must be taken literally. God created the Earth in a literal 6 days just as scripture has said.

 

[chestertonrules]

[ Anything that doesn't by the text itself show itself to be other that literal, must be taken literally. God created the Earth in a literal 6 days just as scripture has said.

Time doesn't mean the same thing to God that it does to us. A thousand years is a day, etc.

Don't constrict yourself on irrelevant dogma.

God created the universe. How he did it is beyong our understanding.

 

[watchman F]

[ Anything that doesn't by the text itself show itself to be other that literal, must be taken literally. God created the Earth in a literal 6 days just as scripture has said.

Time doesn't mean the same thing to God that it does to us. A thousand years is a day, etc.

Don't constrict yourself on irrelevant dogma.

God created the universe. How he did it is beyong our understanding.

He told us exactly what He did and how all we have to do is believe it. If you do not believe Genesis 1, why would you believe the rest of scripture or in God for that matter or Jesus?

 

[veteran]

Not to ridicule, but it's a mistake to think that a parable, metaphor, allegory, etc., in God's Word is the end of the message. It's only the beginning of a message about some LITERAL truth, about something that is very REAL.

For example, when our Lord Jesus said you don't put new wine into old bottles, lest they break, what literal thing or Truth was He giving that parable about?

He was actually talking about wine skins. You don't put newly fermenting wine that needs room to expand and contract into an old dried up wine skin. That old wine skin will burst open. It will not hold the newly fermenting wine.

His Word full strength is what that 'new wine' represents. And the bottles, or wine skins represents one's mind. Someone with a mind like an old dried up wine skin means someone so settled and hardened with men's doctrines and traditions that if God's Word full strength is given to them, their mind can't handle it. Instead, you put the new wine (full strength) of His Word into new wine skins (prepared minds), so both will be preserved together. In Hebrews 5 Apostle Paul contrasted this with the ideas of 'milk' vs. the "strong meat" of God's Word. Many stay on the 'milk' understanding of God's Word because they have been conditioned by years and years of men's doctrines, and their minds are not able to expand to the "strong meat" understanding God is able to give one that is prepared for it.

 

[Adstar]

Struggling with these three questions and I can not get a good answer from anyone. I want real answers not the usual..."it's not ours to know"..."that's God's plan"..."you can ask God when you get to heaven". So can anyone tell me....

Question 1
If there has never been a time without God and there will never be a time without God...if he has always been and will always be and he is the creator of "EVERYTHING", then where was God before he created anything? If he's always been then he had to be someplace before he created anything...right?

He is now where He was then. The problem is that you seem to think that there must be a physical created place for God to be. The concept of "place" may have no relavance to God.

Question 2
If heaven is a perfect creation and has always been a perfect creation where there is no evil, not hurt, no want, no greed and no jealousy...then why did Lucifer try and put himself above God? How would that be possible if heaven was a perfect creation where jealousy and ego does not exist?

Well there was a posability for evil to start in heaven and satan started it. What the Bible says is that upon the final judgement there will be a New Heaven ans a New Earth and we will live with God in a perfect existance.

Question 3
If the Garden of Eden was a perfect creation with no evil, no death and no sin. then how was Satan as a serpent, allowed into the Garden to tempt Eve? Isn't Satan sin incarnate? It seems to me that he would have only been allowed into the Garden "AFTER" Eve sinned.

Answers?

Well you can have a perfect creation and then give the freedom to satan to attempt to sabatarge it. And you give humans the option to join satan. Satan chose to tempt and the humans chose to accept his tempation. Both made their free willed decisions. The bible says that satan tempted Eve before she accepted his temptation and aquired the knowledge of Good and Evil.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[chestertonrules]

[quote="watchman F":tf1e2uez][ Anything that doesn't by the text itself show itself to be other that literal, must be taken literally. God created the Earth in a literal 6 days just as scripture has said.

Time doesn't mean the same thing to God that it does to us. A thousand years is a day, etc.

Don't constrict yourself on irrelevant dogma.

God created the universe. How he did it is beyong our understanding.

He told us exactly what He did and how all we have to do is believe it. If you do not believe Genesis 1, why would you believe the rest of scripture or in God for that matter or Jesus?[/quote:tf1e2uez]


How did a day pass before the sun was created?

 

[Free]

Please keep this thread on topic.

 

[jasoncran]

3) You assume that the story is literal. I don't.

Assume, of course the story is literal. Don;t all christian believe the bible?

start another thread on biblical literalism then. and i do see it literal.

 

[Drew]

Question 2
If heaven is a perfect creation and has always been a perfect creation where there is no evil, not hurt, no want, no greed and no jealousy...then why did Lucifer try and put himself above God? How would that be possible if heaven was a perfect creation where jealousy and ego does not exist?

Despite widespread belief to the contrary, I believe there is no evidence that heaven has always been a perfect place. In fact, I believe that the Bible portrarys heaven as, like earth, a domain where the forces of good are at war with the forces of evil. I confess that I cannot think of the relevant biblical texts.

 

[jasoncran]

Despite widespread belief to the contrary, I believe there is no evidence that heaven has always been a perfect place. In fact, I believe that the Bible portrarys heaven as, like earth, a domain where the forces of good are at war with the forces of evil. I confess that I cannot think of the relevant biblical texts.[/quote]
revalation 12.

 

[watchman F]

Despite widespread belief to the contrary, I believe there is no evidence that heaven has always been a perfect place. In fact, I believe that the Bible portrarys heaven as, like earth, a domain where the forces of good are at war with the forces of evil. I confess that I cannot think of the relevant biblical texts.

revalation 12.

I am pretty sure Revelation 12 is referring to 2nd heaven and not where the throne of God is.