3 questions....who has the answers?

[seekandlisten]

Well I do not know the answers but would like to address some of the answers given by seekandlisten

Question 2
If heaven is a perfect creation and has always been a perfect creation where there is no evil, not hurt, no want, no greed and no jealousy...then why did Lucifer try and put himself above God? How would that be possible if heaven was a perfect creation where jealousy and ego does not exist?

'Lucifer' didn't try and put himself above 'God' to my knowledge. 'He' didn't like the fact that humans were created to be higher than angels and 'he' would have to bow to them I believe was his reason for being 'cast out'.

Where did you get this belief from? Scripture? If so, where is it found chapter and verse?

The idea comes from 1st century Jewish apocryphal 'Books of Adam and Eve' as well as the Qur'an.

 

[watchman F]

'Lucifer' didn't try and put himself above 'God' to my knowledge. 'He' didn't like the fact that humans were created to be higher than angels and 'he' would have to bow to them I believe was his reason for being 'cast out'.

Where did you get this belief from? Scripture? If so, where is it found chapter and verse?

The idea comes from 1st century Jewish apocryphal 'Books of Adam and Eve' as well as the Qur'an.

Well then I will not be adopting it, seeing as it is not in the word of God but rather in an unholy book dictated by satan.

 

[seekandlisten]

Well then I will not be adopting it, seeing as it is not in the word of God but rather in an unholy book dictated by satan.

All I can say about that comment is 'wow'.

 

[Mike]

Well then I will not be adopting it, seeing as it is not in the word of God but rather in an unholy book dictated by satan.

All I can say about that comment is 'wow'.

seekandlisten, you come from the perspective of a faith that allows a source outside the Bible to share equal status of the one True Word, so it's not surprising that you would respond in such a way. I posed a question in the thread about Mormons asking if Mormons consider themselves Christians, why they feel compelled to convert Christians to the Mormon faith. It went unanswered by you and other Mormons. I would never try to convert a Baptist, Lutheran or biblical nondenominational Christian to convert to my faith as they are all Christians. Mormons don't stop at "I'm a Christian and I have a personal relationship with Jesus", because Mormons aren't Christian.

Back to the subject, someone said earlier in the thread the Bible doesn't say what Satan's intention was. Isaiah makes it pretty clear in chapter 14:

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

 

[seekandlisten]

seekandlisten, you come from the perspective of a faith that allows a source outside the Bible to share equal status of the one True Word, so it's not surprising that you would respond in such a way. I posed a question in the thread about Mormons asking if Mormons consider themselves Christians, why they feel compelled to convert Christians to the Mormon faith. It went unanswered by you and other Mormons. I would never try to convert a Baptist, Lutheran or biblical nondenominational Christian to convert to my faith as they are all Christians. Mormons don't stop at "I'm a Christian and I have a personal relationship with Jesus", because Mormons aren't Christian.

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that I am a Mormon. The sources I gave for the said belief that Satan wouldn't bow to Adam comes from Jewish sources and Islamic sources.

I also don't think anyone has to convert from anything. Believe in the 'truth', it stands on its own aside from religion. As far as talk of the supernatural goes it is nothing more than myth as it is not something we can 'grasp' in our finite minds so 'truth' becomes relative in this aspect. This is not an area that can be discussed in 'absolutes' in my opinion.

Back to the subject, someone said earlier in the thread the Bible doesn't say what Satan's intention was. Isaiah makes it pretty clear in chapter 14:

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

I've read this too and you could take the 'I will make myself like the Most High' to be becoming higher than God so I stand corrected on my original post with saying that this belief isn't presented. I will ask you who the 'stars of God' that this passage points to if you don't mind sharing your opinion?

cheers

 

[watchman F]

Well then I will not be adopting it, seeing as it is not in the word of God but rather in an unholy book dictated by satan.

All I can say about that comment is 'wow'.

Who do you think dictated the Quran to Mahammad?

 

[seekandlisten]

[quote="watchman F":2gqr57r4]Well then I will not be adopting it, seeing as it is not in the word of God but rather in an unholy book dictated by satan.

All I can say about that comment is 'wow'.

Who do you think dictated the Quran to Mahammad?[/quote:2gqr57r4]

No one as the Qur'an didn't exist until after Muhammed died. Muhammed was also illiterate to my understanding.

cheers

 

[watchman F]

[quote="watchman F":365b1x14]Well then I will not be adopting it, seeing as it is not in the word of God but rather in an unholy book dictated by satan.

Who do you think dictated the Quran to Mahammad?

No one as the Qur'an didn't exist until after Muhammed died. Muhammed was also illiterate to my understanding.

cheers[/quote:365b1x14]So you place the writings of a religion that base their beliefs on the word of a demon possessed illiterate as equal with the word of God, dictated to His chosen vessels by the Holy Spirit Himself?

 

[seekandlisten]

So you place the writings of a religion that base their beliefs on the word of a demon possessed illiterate as equal with the word of God, dictated to His chosen vessels by the Holy Spirit Himself?

'Demon possessed illiterate' eh? Is there really any point in discussing my views with you if this is your attitude?

cheers

 

[watchman F]

So you place the writings of a religion that base their beliefs on the word of a demon possessed illiterate as equal with the word of God, dictated to His chosen vessels by the Holy Spirit Himself?

'Demon possessed illiterate' eh? Is there really any point in discussing my views with you if this is your attitude?

cheers

No, not really. If you relate to the Quran or the Apocryphal as equal to the Bible, then no you really need not discuss your erroneous views with me.

 

[Mike]

Back to the subject, someone said earlier in the thread the Bible doesn't say what Satan's intention was. Isaiah makes it pretty clear in chapter 14:

13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]

14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."

15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.

I've read this too and you could take the 'I will make myself like the Most High' to be becoming higher than God so I stand corrected on my original post with saying that this belief isn't presented. I will ask you who the 'stars of God' that this passage points to if you don't mind sharing your opinion?

seekandlisten, I'm sorry I haven't replied to you sooner here. I got distracted by our other discussions and others as well.

I suppose I just interpreted "stars of God" to mean something along the lines of "all of the stars that God put in place", to ascend to God's throne. "stars" isn't capitalized, so if you're suggesting the word implies something more than His creation, I would disagree. I'm not saying you are. I'm saying "if" you are. Correct me if I assume too much, but the story of your childhood in your church leads me to believe you were not in a healthy, Christian church. If you had been, perhaps you wouldn't be where you are at, which appears to be vindictive (sorry, couldn't think of a better word) of the church.

 

[seekandlisten]

seekandlisten, I'm sorry I haven't replied to you sooner here. I got distracted by our other discussions and others as well.

I suppose I just interpreted "stars of God" to mean something along the lines of "all of the stars that God put in place", to ascend to God's throne. "stars" isn't capitalized, so if you're suggesting the word implies something more than His creation, I would disagree. I'm not saying you are. I'm saying "if" you are. Correct me if I assume too much, but the story of your childhood in your church leads me to believe you were not in a healthy, Christian church. If you had been, perhaps you wouldn't be where you are at, which appears to be vindictive (sorry, couldn't think of a better word) of the church.

Well, the church's I was raised in teach the same thing that you do so where does that put us? My view is simply of how 'fake' Christianity is in general(not overall). Before I upset someone realize this, there are people, on this site for example(Cornelius, handy, francisdesales, mutzrein, logical bob, the barbarian, maryam, free, brokendoll, lance iguana, as well as others i'm sure but these are first names that popped into my head from my experience here) that I have no problems with what they believe and honestly believe that they are sincere. As you can tell from that list you have a variation of beliefs from many different backgrounds.

It's not the beliefs that people hold, its what they do with them. Someone stumbles in christianity and the church is on them like a bunch of vultures pointing out their sin. People from all religions are so quick to 'pick up stones' against other beliefs and religions when Jesus said 'let him who is without sin cast the first stone'. I'm sure there are all sorts of reasons one will give as to why they think others will not make it into heaven but that's not our decision to make.

The bible says to love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you, not tell them they are wrong and need to believe what you believe. You believe that only God has the power to save someone so let him do his work while you do yours. Act and God will act. Demonstrate this love you talk of, if someone is sinning, love them even more, if they are a christian they already know they are sinning so they don't need your confirmation and if they are not a christian well they need your love not your judgment. We are all sinners, recognize that, by simply admitting your a sinner but then somehow saying you are already a step up on everyone else because you believe certain things that convince you that you are 'saved' already before your God judges you as a sinner is not accepting the fact that you are a sinner and its only by the grace of God when he reviews your life that you may be granted a spot in his kingdom. Its not your choice to make no matter how much authority you give the bible, church, or religion.

Why waste time arguing when we could just get along and have open discussions about our belief. There are many times that someone has said something to me that later on it clicks in and makes perfect sense. This can come from any belief system. Truth will stand on its own without its believers having to claim it to be true.

I look at doctrines such as the universalists hold and wonder why people are against everyone getting saved. I don't know if everyone will be saved or not but I would like them to be. Why would I want people to burn in hell? If this God is just and loving why would he send someone to eternal torment for simply calling him by a different name or believing that everyone was going to be saved or following the 'wrong' religion. God is not petty like us. The bible says to 'endure' to be 'delivered out of' to 'rise above' not to sit still and believe enough.

We all hold our own beliefs and in the end if judgement is where we stand, it is just going to be us and God, we will no longer be backed up by the other millions or billions of believers, just us. You believe everyone will stand before God in judgement so not matter whether I'm a Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, you believe that my road is going to join to yours when we are judged so lets let God, who is the just Judge, to worry about settling our differences of opinions.(Micah 4)

The analogy of clay in God's hand being formed to his purpose falls short when we decide we are ready to be 'taken off the wheel and put in the oven' before God decides. Become perfect as your Father is perfect. You can't force someone to believe what you believe without any evidence. If it comes down to faith show how this faith leads to love not cohercion.

Sorry for the rant but this has been my issues lately.

To have faith is to trust yourself to the water. When you swim you don't grab hold of the water, because if you do you will sink and drown. Instead relax and float. Alan Watts

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in teh memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid. Marcus Aurelius

I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his [sic] creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious ourselves. Albert Einstein

For the waywardness of the simple will kill them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them; but whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at ease, without fear of harm. Proverbs 1:32


Edited note: Please don't regard this as an attack against Christianity because that is not its intent. I have met many Christians who I respect. I also believe in the bible. I just don't believe everything that some 'Christians' hold to be true.

 

[Mike]

seekandlisten,

You know the Christian faith holds that there is One way to spend eternity in the presence of the Lord, and so being evangelical, I try to share the Gospel as I firmly believe it. I have the duty.

That said, your point is well taken. Sometimes (well, often), I fall in the trap of pressing on when I should share the Gospel and then let the Holy Spirit do His work. It's all too easy for me to do when we are involved in ongoing threads. But they would be very short if I simply stated my Truth once and left there. I do see the need to stay behind the line of defending my faith, exchanging thoughts, without constantly trying to convince, convince, convince. That's a craft that's difficult for me.

The opposition does not have the same limitations. They can pound and pound without acknowledging the need to hand it over to a higher power. If you see the same need (to hand it over), perhaps you find it hard to stay in your place. If you don't, then you are free to continue your efforts.