5 Solas

[Fastfredy0]

Faith is never without "works".
If it is without works, it is a dead faith.

Agreed.
But my point is the one is not saved by WORKS. Rather, one is saved by FAITH ALONE and said faith has effects and one of those effects is WORKS

 

[Christ_empowered]

Fun fact: the first great awakening in the then colonial USA ?? was during the mid 18th century. Calvinism was the dominant form of Christianity at the time. And so…

The church was an integral part of the community back then. People would go and get religion as they say and then local ministers would observe them for outward manifestations of grace, signs of a genuine conversion. Obedience to Christ was and is one such sign…

 

[Humblepie]

All the Law and the prophets hang on these two commandments”

Except the laws that Christians think are abolished.

He didn't say some of the law, he said ALL THE LAW.
But let's not Judaize.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Agreed.
But my point is the one is not saved by WORKS. Rather, one is saved by FAITH ALONE and said faith has effects and one of those effects is WORKS

Semantics.
If one is not doing the deeds of the faithful, he will not be saved on the day of judgement.
Our judgement is in our hands !
The door has been opened, but we have to walk through it.

 

[Humblepie]

If one is not doing the deeds of the faithful, he will not be saved on the day of judgement.

So if one doesn't do God's will, he is judged by his sin in the end?

What is GOD's will throughout the entire Bible?

 

[Hopeful 2]

So if one doesn't do God's will, he is judged by his sin in the end?

Yes.

What is GOD's will throughout the entire Bible?

His will has always been that we love Him with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength...and our neighbors as we love ourselves.

 

[Humblepie]

Yes.

His will has always been that we love Him with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength...and our neighbors as we love ourselves.

Ahh, the condensed version. It makes that narrow path much wider doesn't it.

 

[electedbyHim]

Except the laws that Christians think are abolished.

He didn't say some of the law, he said ALL THE LAW.
But let's not Judaize.

What laws, please explain.

But obedience to the everlasting law because you are saved, out of obedience to God the Father's will, is called Judaizing. I get it.

Explain Judaizing.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Ahh, the condensed version. It makes that narrow path much wider doesn't it.

Not at all.
It is the same width as when Jesus commanded it in Matt 22:37-40.

 

[Humblepie]

Not at all.
It is the same width as when Jesus commanded it in Matt 22:37-40.

Like he said all the law can be summed up in two commandments. Love God, and others.

So do you observe the Sabbath?
If not, that road gets wider.
Do you observe the feast days?
If not that road gets wider.

If you love God, keep his commandments.

Of course keeping the commandments will never save you, but if you love him, you do what he tells you to do.

You go your way, I will follow all the scripture that commands me to Walk as Jesus walked.

Following his fathers OT commands in the spirit of the law.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Like he said all the law can be summed up in two commandments. Love God, and others.

Like Jesus said.

So do you observe the Sabbath?
If not, that road gets wider.

Yes, as that is written on my heart.

Do you observe the feast days?

Of course not.
I am not an OT Jew, and am dead to the Law, like Paul in Rom 7:4 and Gal 2:19.

If you love God, keep his commandments.

Absolutely, both of them.

Of course keeping the commandments will never save you, but if you love him, you do what he tells you to do.

Amen to that.
Jesus told all of us to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.
And love our neighbor as we love ourselves. (Matt 22:37-40)

You go your way, I will follow all the scripture that commands me to Walk as Jesus walked.

Did Jesus break the Law by healing on the sabbath ?
Did He break the Law when he told the healed man to carry his bed on the sabbath ?
Did Jesus break the Law when He was picking corn on the sabbath ?
Judge righteous judgement !

Following his fathers OT commands in the spirit of the law.

Jesus lived in and under the OT.
We don't.

Now, we can do something the folks of the OT could not do.
We can be baptized into Christ, thereby destroying the old man and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
A life walked in and after the Spirt instead of in and after the "flesh".
OT adherents can't do that.

 

[Humblepie]

like Paul in Rom 7:4

Here is the correct context for verse 4.


Romans 7:23
23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the ((((law of sin)))) at work within me.

Romans 7 is not about the law of moses, he is talking about the law of SIN. He is dead to the Law of sin.

Context matters, this is how people twist what Paul says. They read one verse and say "see, Paul says we are dead to the law"
Paul talks of 7 different laws in romans.

1. The law of God (the torah)
2. The law of christ
3. The law of righteousness
4. The law of faith.
5. The law of sin.
6. The law of sin and death.
7. The Law of the Spirit of Life.

Be careful you know what law Paul is talking about. This is where the confusion comes in to play. Context is imperative if you want to grasp what he is teaching. One verse in a chapter is not the context.

Gal 2:19.

Galatians 2:19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.

What does Paul mean here? Quite simply, the Law helps us realize we are sinners—the law declares us guilty and requires death. But in Messiah, we die to the Law’s penalty so we can live a new life to the Lord, empowered by the Holy Spirit to keep God’s Law (Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 36:25-27). Paul teaches that God’s Law is designed to convict us by defining and exposing our sin. Thus, it cannot be a means of salvation. God’s Law points us to the means of salvation, which is Messiah. When we receive the Messiah by faith, we put on the mind of Christ (Romans 7:25; 1 Corinthians 2:16) and keep the Law of God because of our salvation, not for our salvation.

 

[Humblepie]

Did Jesus break the Law by healing on the sabbath ?
Did He break the Law when he told the healed man to carry his bed on the sabbath ?
Did Jesus break the Law when He was picking corn on the sabbath ?
Judge righteous judgement !

He neither broke the letter or Spirit of the law, he did however break the oral law, or the commandments of MEN.


(The Talmud
An oral tradition that is not written in the Old Testament and is believed in by Orthodox Judaism.)


There is a big difference in the two and Jesus didn't accept the oral law because they put it above the written law . Here is an example.

Mark 7:5-

5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’

8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.
11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”


If he would've broken any part of the law of moses his death wouldn't mean a thing.

 

[electedbyHim]

Except the laws that Christians think are abolished.

He didn't say some of the law, he said ALL THE LAW.
But let's not Judaize.

What laws?

Are you suggesting Christians need to keep every law in the O.T.?

Clarify.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Here is the correct context for verse 4.
Romans 7:23
23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the ((((law of sin)))) at work within me.

Two different laws are mentioned in verse 23.
Which is the Law of Moses ?
The law of his mind.
The Law in verse 4 is of Moses, or else verse 1 through 5 make no sense.

Romans 7 is not about the law of moses, he is talking about the law of SIN. He is dead to the Law of sin.

Rom 7 is talking about both.

Context matters, this is how people twist what Paul says. They read one verse and say "see, Paul says we are dead to the law"
Paul talks of 7 different laws in romans.

1. The law of God (the torah)
2. The law of christ
3. The law of righteousness
4. The law of faith.
5. The law of sin.
6. The law of sin and death.
7. The Law of the Spirit of Life.

Be careful you know what law Paul is talking about. This is where the confusion comes in to play. Context is imperative if you want to grasp what he is teaching. One verse in a chapter is not the context.


Galatians 2:19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.

What does Paul mean here? Quite simply, the Law helps us realize we are sinners—

True.
And Jesus came and freed us from service to sin. (John 8:32-34)

the law declares us guilty and requires death. But in Messiah, we die to the Law’s penalty

False.
Only non-sinners will be free of the penalty for sin.

so we can live a new life to the Lord, empowered by the Holy Spirit to keep God’s Law

True.
We can now keep God's law.

Paul teaches that God’s Law is designed to convict us by defining and exposing our sin.

True.

Thus, it cannot be a means of salvation. God’s Law points us to the means of salvation, which is Messiah. When we receive the Messiah by faith, we put on the mind of Christ (Romans 7:25; 1 Corinthians 2:16) and keep the Law of God because of our salvation, not for our salvation.

Our salvation won't be assured until Jesus returns and either raises us to life, or a second death.

 

[Hopeful 2]

He neither broke the letter or Spirit of the law, he did however break the oral law, or the commandments of MEN.
(The Talmud
An oral tradition that is not written in the Old Testament and is believed in by Orthodox Judaism.)
There is a big difference in the two and Jesus didn't accept the oral law because they put it above the written law . Here is an example.
Mark 7:5-
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”
6 He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7 They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’
8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”
9 And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.
11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
If he would've broken any part of the law of moses his death wouldn't mean a thing.

True.
Yet the Jews sought to stone Him on multiple occasions.
Thank God we only have one law to obey now.
The Law of Christ..."Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself."