5 years since 9-11....

[ikester7579]

So all the progresses that we have made in the last few centuries here in the US are not improvements? The ending of slavery, woman's suffrage, and at least attempting to minimize the influence of race, sex, etc. on opportunities is all for naught? Same regarding other developed worlds, and some of the assisstance given to developing nations. No, we may not be able to make things perfect, but we can make the world a better place than it is now.

Where did you get that slavery was ended? There are different forms of slavery. Only the form that was wide open about it was ended. And the ones that replaced it are no better.

And about race. Racism is taught in science class in every school right from this book:

The second part of the name of this book was omitted, and never discussed in class for a very good reason. Today it's not politically correct, and would have been thrown out of our schools. But the ideas of this book are the same. And are still being taught. And is the main reason why some people do not believe that all humans are equal.

And about sex. The web is flooded with p@rn. And s@x shops still exist. Along with the slavery of both young (children) and adult in this profession. And some countries openly allow this to exist.

P@rn shops have opened in my town for the very first time. They stay open 24 hours a day. The murder rate here has increased 20 times in 5 years. Everyday 1-3 people are mudered here.

So is this your view of getting better?

 

[Voyageur]

We need to also remember that things do not change over night because one president takes over. Clinton shares more blame for what happened in 9-11 then anyone in government. I don't say this just because I don't like the man. I say this because of his failure to take action because his political stance was more important than our safety.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005 ... 0750.shtml
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 3534.shtml

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020812/story.html

Several of our Embassies were bombed. Clinton did nothing.
The Cole military ship was bombed, Clinton did nothing.
Clinton had a chance to nab Bin Laden. But was to busy with nabing Lewinsky.

So just like Clinton, we were caught with our pants down.

So for those who think it is all of Bush's fault, how could have Bush undone Clinton's not taking any action against several attacks? Can history be changed, does someone have a time machine?

I can quote a plethora of information from the 9/11 Report that prooves this claim wrong.

It points out a number of success and a number of failures during Clinton's years.

And nowhere in the report was it detailed that Clinton was offered Bin Laden. This is a fabrication. According to the report, Clinton knew full well the terrorist threat of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, but no one in government--and that includes the Republican-controlled legistlature--knew exactly what Bin Laden was up to.

 

[Voyageur]

5 years and nothing has happened.

No more buildings have gone down. No more planes loaded with people used as bombs.
True. Nothing has happened.

Correlation does not equality causality. You cannot prove that Bush's foreign policy has prevented terrorist attacks on American soil. That is a logical fallacy.

There could be any number of reasons for this inactivity. Look at how many years passed between the first WTC attack and 9/11--8 years. No one is claiming this as a success for Clinton.

If you are going to engage in arguments about the effectiveness of Bush's War on Terror, please avoid the logical fallacies.

 

[Voyageur]

700 Club had helpful feature from ex-pilot Pat Robertson, who predicted a major terrorist attack before 9/11 & warns of worse to come

And your point? Many people within government predicted a terrorist attack on American soil. What we didn't know was that 9/11 would be so large-scale and effective.

Pat Robertson is a charlatan. He also claims that he can avert natural disasters, such as hurricanes, by invoking the power of God. Which, he clearly cannot do. He is a charlatan. And if you look into his personal history, you'll find that he was involved in quite unsavory business relationships.

 

[moniker]

Where did you get that slavery was ended? There are different forms of slavery. Only the form that was wide open about it was ended. And the ones that replaced it are no better.

Labor is not slavery nor is the class system despite what you may believe. It certainly is not a fair distribution, but it is not slavery.

And about race. Racism is taught in science class in every school right from this book. The second part of the name of this book was omitted, and never discussed in class for a very good reason. Today it's not politically correct, and would have been thrown out of our schools. But the ideas of this book are the same. And are still being taught. And is the main reason why some people do not believe that all humans are equal.

Have you ever actually taken a biology course or are you simply making foolish assumptions? Evolution does not promote racism, in fact it opposes it because it shows that all of humanity is one species and that there are no true differences between us beyond our phenotypes. It's also cures diseases, but that's neither here nor there.

And about sex. The web is flooded with p@rn. And s@x shops still exist. Along with the slavery of both young (children) and adult in this profession. And some countries openly allow this to exist.

I was speaking of first world countries in general, and the united states in particular. However, I would go so far as to claim that a lot of the developing nations have improved as well compared to the serfdom and colonial rule they had.

P@rn shops have opened in my town for the very first time. They stay open 24 hours a day. The murder rate here has increased 20 times in 5 years. Everyday 1-3 people are mudered here.

Where do you live, because the violent crime rate has been on steady decline across the US as a whole and in a 10 year lowpoint.

So is this your view of getting better?

Yes, I would say that the world today is better than decades ago and infinitely improved over centuries past.

 

[Voyageur]

If humanity was able to improve itself, we wouldn't need a Savior now, would we? That is the problem with Man; he thinks he can fix it, but just makes things worse in the process.

OK... if we take your logic to its ultimate conclusion, then there is no reason to attempt to fix anything.

And if we accept this as the true nature of human existence, then it follows that we need not involve ourselves in civilization. As we know, civilization is the social, economic and political arrangment by which humans attempt to improve their lives and those of the community.

And if we accept that we need not be involved in civilization, then what follows next is our willing descent into anarchy and chaos.

Tell me how this is moral or god-like? And then also tell me what is the point of living out the human existence in such a state. Why would a God want his creation to descend to such extremes of anarchic behavior?

 

[Quath]

Where did you get that slavery was ended? There are different forms of slavery. Only the form that was wide open about it was ended. And the ones that replaced it are no better.

Do you think slavery is tronger today or in the past?

And about race. Racism is taught in science class in every school right from this book:

Not really. A lot of the "racism" is nothing that some human races are immune to diseases more so than other races, which would give them a survival advantage.

Science teaches that if you look at the average genetic variations between the races, it is less than the average variation between two individuals. So it teaches us that we are all very similar on a genetic level, moreso than race would dictate.

And about sex. The web is flooded with p@rn. And s@x shops still exist. Along with the slavery of both young (children) and adult in this profession. And some countries openly allow this to exist.

The only crime is if someone poses for porn or is used for sex against their will. Do you have numbers to show this is increasing?

P@rn shops have opened in my town for the very first time. They stay open 24 hours a day. The murder rate here has increased 20 times in 5 years. Everyday 1-3 people are mudered here.

I saw a statistic that went back for 400 years and there is a steady decline in the muder rate if you take into consideration population growth. Or in other words, you are less likely to get murdered today than in the past.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

The ending of slavery....

Has not happened yet.

 

[ikester7579]

So what does "favoured races" mean? It does not say favoured species.

I am thinking about obtaining a copy of the original version of this book to count how many times the word race is used compared to species.

 

[ikester7579]

We need to also remember that things do not change over night because one president takes over. Clinton shares more blame for what happened in 9-11 then anyone in government. I don't say this just because I don't like the man. I say this because of his failure to take action because his political stance was more important than our safety.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005 ... 0750.shtml
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/article ... 3534.shtml

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020812/story.html

Several of our Embassies were bombed. Clinton did nothing.
The Cole military ship was bombed, Clinton did nothing.
Clinton had a chance to nab Bin Laden. But was to busy with nabing Lewinsky.

So just like Clinton, we were caught with our pants down.

So for those who think it is all of Bush's fault, how could have Bush undone Clinton's not taking any action against several attacks? Can history be changed, does someone have a time machine?

I can quote a plethora of information from the 9/11 Report that prooves this claim wrong.

It points out a number of success and a number of failures during Clinton's years.

And nowhere in the report was it detailed that Clinton was offered Bin Laden. This is a fabrication. According to the report, Clinton knew full well the terrorist threat of Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, but no one in government--and that includes the Republican-controlled legistlature--knew exactly what Bin Laden was up to.

Is this a government report? Anyone can write a report.

 

[Quath]

So what does "favoured races" mean? It does not say favoured species.

It is talking in terms of human races, but he is trying to show that races adapt to their location. This is true in general, but you have to be careful how far you go without good data.

One common example is sicle cell anemia, a genetic component found in many Africans. One gene increases your resistance to malaria. Two kills you and zero means you will probably die to malaria. So evolution works out to show how sickle cell gene now helps this race become the favored one in this environment.

From a Creationist standpoint, one would have to wonder why God would set up a system so that half of the people will die to survive as a race. Seems unnecessarily cruel.

So in this case, Africans were superior to whites that try to live in this area. Other races may have other advantages in different environments due to their genetics. It says that the races could also have different intelligence. However, it actually takes study to determine if that is the case. (And so far all the studies I have seen show that the races are pretty equivalent in intelligence and most other measurements.)

 

[ikester7579]

It is talking in terms of human races, but he is trying to show that races adapt to their location. This is true in general, but you have to be careful how far you go without good data.

Why would you have to be careful about the data?

One common example is sicle cell anemia, a genetic component found in many Africans. One gene increases your resistance to malaria. Two kills you and zero means you will probably die to malaria. So evolution works out to show how sickle cell gene now helps this race become the favored one in this environment.

You would first have to prove that this cell defect is a direct result of malaria. Just because it happens to resist malaria, does not mean the condition is a direct result of it. There is also the condition of marrying to close in the family which causes all types of genetic problems. This one may have been a result of this, and the secondary benefit just happens to be this resistance.

If you are sure that sickle cell is a direct result of the malaria problem. Then there should be direct evidence of this. For all we know, it could be just to close marrying.

From a Creationist standpoint, one would have to wonder why God would set up a system so that half of the people will die to survive as a race. Seems unnecessarily cruel.

So it's ok for evolution to allow people to suffer to become immune, but it's not okay if God is in control and it happens? What is your point here?

That maybe suffering to any degree through evolution is okay?

So in this case, Africans were superior to whites that try to live in this area. Other races may have other advantages in different environments due to their genetics. It says that the races could also have different intelligence. However, it actually takes study to determine if that is the case. (And so far all the studies I have seen show that the races are pretty equivalent in intelligence and most other measurements.)

Why would you need to do a comparison between whites, and Africans if evolution was not racist? What you believe should not require such an comparison if racism were not of it.

And as far as intelligence goes. If one race is more intelligent than another. One race would never be able to match, on any level, being able to learn on the same level, correct? But is that what we see?

Intelligence based on race is exactly what Hitler saw. And everyone knows the result of his kind of thinking because of it.

I would like to see some examples of intelligence based on race.

 

[Quath]

Why would you have to be careful about the data?

With bad data, you could conclude wrong things about the races. For example, a bad IQ test could lead you to believe that one race is smarter than the other.

You would first have to prove that this cell defect is a direct result of malaria. Just because it happens to resist malaria, does not mean the condition is a direct result of it. There is also the condition of marrying to close in the family which causes all types of genetic problems. This one may have been a result of this, and the secondary benefit just happens to be this resistance.

If you are sure that sickle cell is a direct result of the malaria problem. Then there should be direct evidence of this. For all we know, it could be just to close marrying.

The evolutionary theory would say that sicle cell gene could show up on occasion. However, the damaging effects do not show up unless you have two genes. So it is probably in low density in the population under normal circumstances.

However, a malaria outbreak hits a tribe. People with the gene would survive and pass on this gene. If malaria is a constant problem, then you get into the situation where half your population dies (a quarter from no sickle cell gene and a quarter with 2 sickle cell genes).

So malaria did not create it, it just exposed it and made it prominent.

So it's ok for evolution to allow people to suffer to become immune, but it's not okay if God is in control and it happens? What is your point here?

That maybe suffering to any degree through evolution is okay?

Evolution has no consciousness nor morality. It is just a process. However, God is suppose to have both. There is where the problem lies. Senseless suffering is easily explained away with evolution, but not ith a benign creator.

Why would you need to do a comparison between whites, and Africans if evolution was not racist? What you believe should not require such an comparison if racism were not of it.

People are curious and they want to know what their genetics will influence about them. Sometimes you get some interesting science. For example, dry or wet ear wax is something that is different among the races. If you can figure out which environmental issue pushed evolution in that direction, you may develop a better medicine.

And as far as intelligence goes. If one race is more intelligent than another. One race would never be able to match, on any level, being able to learn on the same level, correct? But is that what we see?

It does raise an interesting issue. If one race were 20 IQ points lower, would it be fair to put them into a capitalist system where they would compete at a major disadvantage? However, the results of intelligence tests show that the races are pretty much equal in intelligence.

Intelligence based on race is exactly what Hitler saw. And everyone knows the result of his kind of thinking because of it.

I would like to see some examples of intelligence based on race.

Here is an excerpt from Skeptic's Dictionary:

The research on IQ and race by Arthur Jensen, William Shockley, Herrnstein and Murray (The Bell Curve) and others have not found any significant correlations between race and intelligence. They have found correlations between race and IQ, which has been used to support the notion that some races are intellectually inferior to others.

There is a lot more there, but that seems to summarize a lot of what I have seen. Basically, IQ is just but one test that is not perfect and seems to favor some races over another (which seem to indicate a cultural bias rather than a genetic one).

 

[MrVersatile48]

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 381#290381

 

[moniker]

So what does "favoured races" mean? It does not say favoured species.

I am thinking about obtaining a copy of the original version of this book to count how many times the word race is used compared to species.

What would that prove and why would it matter? In case you were unaware there have been a few advancements since 1860 and discreditting Darwin's wording would not impact a thing regarding current evolutionary theory.

 

[moniker]

The ending of slavery....

Has not happened yet.

Perhaps not entirely here in the West, but as near as is practically feasible. Beyond that, though, it has become a morally reprehensible action and is not accepted by our and many other cultures.