7th Day Adventist

[By Grace]

I don't think "attack" is the intended word here though.

It is the word I meant, and I was trying to address the point that some people view a demonstration of false teachings, (for example the SDA church) to be an attack on everyone in that religion. Whenever I deal with with Mormons (another example) and the many gross and many illegal things that Joseph Smith did, many Mormons take that as a personal attack against them, and then respond with personal insults istead of data that would refute what others and people like me post.

Who is Jesus Christ? Always stick with who he is.

Every cult or false religion fails to follow the proper Christology. The SDA church also fails here. There are some in the church who believe that Jesus Christ always IS God, come in the flesh. Uniformly they reject ALL of the Ecumenical Creeds, and in the process also reject the dual and eternal Natures of Jesus Christ (100% human and 100% God without any mixture or confusion of those natures)

Also some in the SDA church believes that Michael the Archangel is Jesus. So you are correct in that account.

Other religions view Him differently. One doesn't need to study another religion to witness the truth of who He is.

That is why the best apologetic comes from a thorough knowledge of the Bible, and not from a basis of presuppositionals (van Til) or through evidences (McDowell, et al)

Those differences will surface and yes, absolutely do not appear as one who's intent it is to prove someone else's belief is wrong.

Respectfully, I disagree that this should be a universal approach. God gifts us uniquely, and mine lie in the areas of teaching, preaching and prophet. That does not mean that I am adverse to mercy or evangelism. I love to win people for Jesus Christ, and I feel good when I can act kindly to someone in the name of Jesus. But having gifts that center on the proclamation of propositional truth, I am "hard wired" to say that this or that does not agree with Scripture.

Many Christians are either "Scripturally illiterate" or else blinded by smooth-talking charlatans who twist Scripture to make a false gospel that is another sort of gospel: that from demons. When that happens, I do not believe that is wrong to expose the truth in a gentle manner.

When Jude wrote in verse 3 I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. (ESV)", He was not saying play pat-a-cake with the cultist. (neither are you, but it is good rhetoric) He was using a compound Greek verb in the command voice. The preposition eppi (English equivalent is epic) is attached to the verb "struggle" and you have a very strong command to struggle as if you were in an epic for the faith. that is the strongest exortation in the NT, but it is far from the only one.

Let them make that decision. Show them, tell them what Christ has done in your life, what Christ means to you but always try to stay with Christ... who He is. Talk about him, not the other person or their "wrong" theology.

Hopefully, you can see that while I do contend for the faith, it is my aim not to be contentious when I do that. Sometimes I do that, sometimes not. But always, I seek to tell people the truth. Sometimes they accept that it, other times not. I tell people the truth as nicely as I can because there are some like the author of the OP are already rejecting the things of the SDA church. Since the SDA church venerates Ellen (yes, that is the proper word) and they claim that she is a prophetess, would it be wrong to demonstrate false prophecies and medical quackery? The reason I do that is not to "hurt a dead woman" but to demonstrate that if someone in her movement applied the OT Scriptures to her for those false prophecies, she would have been stoned.

My aim is to start a thought process that leaves to a person leaving the SDA church. for many legitimate reasons I believe that it is a cult. the thought process is "If Ellen should have been stoned for proved false prophecies, is there anything else that is not in keeping with Scripture in this church. I want them to look for themselves, but there must be that seed planted.

However, I do get the impression that you may be giving me a hint to not do as I have been doing on the SDA forum, and attempting to expose the many false things of the SDA church. But this is your house, so it is your rules. You tell me, please.

 

[Sparkey]

I seem to recall a woman who was caught in the act of adultery. There was something drawn in the sand. A word was spoken. The crowd was dispersed. I'd like to be able to speak a word someday.

Cordially,
Sparrow

 

[Rick W]

However, I do get the impression that you may be giving me a hint to not do as I have been doing on the SDA forum, and attempting to expose the many false things of the SDA church. But this is your house, so it is your rules. You tell me, please.

No, I'm just trying to relate what worked and what didn't while I was in Salt Lake City for some years witnessing to Mormons.
Granted, what works for me may not get the same results for you. Conversely what works for you may not work for me. Overall though I have observed the build up of defenses when one is perceived as attacking their beliefs. For me it just made things that much harder.

This isn't my house, it's not even a house but a place to meet and communicate with others. A reasonable civil environment is beneficial to all concerned and it's our place to assure you and everyone else can come here and do that with some semblance of peace.

 

[abide]

Welcome to this forum, Abide!
I hope that you will find this forum to be different than others.

Indeed so! I am glad to see that Holy Spirit has opened your eyes to see the truth.

One thing that is a strong pull in the SDA community is the fact that they are very much enmeshed with one another. Personally, I believe that they are codependent because they try to enforce the unenforceable rules of what EGW says, and everyone sorta knows that the other person is fudging things when they say that "I was good this week because I followed Ellen's rules..." Thus fellowship is based on a verbal statement of an impossible situation.

Those ties are very strong, and very important in the SDA church, so understand that you or anyone else will have a difficult time if you ever want to break ranks. I recommend that you find and attend a Bible study in your neighborhood as well as find a good non-bitter site run by former SDAs. The ones who are not bitter will understand that you are in the midst of a HUGE change, and will offer you support, and not condemnation.

You also need to know that you may be part of a larger exodus movement outside the SDA church. Its membership is declining, and you cite the reasons above. Do not let anyone belittle you, or put you down if you fail to believe this or that about Ellen. You are on a journey, and some roads have more bumps than on others.

They MAY have a "good ministry for children" but what is it worth if they teach easily-impressed children to follow Ellen, and not Jesus or the Bible?


The Bereans were commended for doing that.

Thanks Grace for your insightful comments.

The "basis" for that Ellen said that the "animal nature" (whatever that is) of the slaughtered animal was transferred to the eater. (You are what you eat). Of course that is medical quackery!

On another site where there was a "safe zone for SDAs" there was a picture of one of the posters. She is a pretty blonde in a blue dress, and has these big blue beads around her collar. I thought that was hilarious! (hope you are not her!)


The reason for that is because our salvation is so precious and so secure! Many cults use that verse to place fear into the hearts of its adherents, but the real sense is to be full of awe about the uniqueness of a God who chose us before the foundations of the earth. (Ephesians 1:4)


Ah, yes! You are following your SDA teachings well! Just playing with you a bit, not being mean, OK?

Fear is indeed a tactic of our Enemy, and a just, loving righteous and holy God does not have people come to Him by "scaring the hell out of them" as can be seen in the SDA Revelation Seminars.



Keep on studying the Bible, Abide. That will keep you on track.
Additionally, I suggest that you pray to Holy Spirit, who is the Revealer of Truth, and ask Him to show you the things that you need learn so that you can love Jesus more and more. He will respond favorably to that prayer because His job is to point to Jesus Christ always and only to Him. That is because the TRUE Remnant Church is scattered among various denominations, and in many different churches, including some in the SDA church, and some in the Roman Catholic church. that is why I attack the doctrines and the writings of dead people, but not attack the people inside those churches.

Attacking the people who belong to a particular cult such as Mormons instead of attacking their faulty theology is the hall mark of a cult-like mentality.

 

[abide]

Lets please be careful keeping in mind the this passage :

Mat_7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat_7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat_7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Asking ourselves are we the same in our beliefs now as in yesteryear?

Please find the line between bashing and discussion. Moderator

My dad owned a "Mom & Pop" grocery store while I was growing up. But in point of fact my mom's name was on the title too. Once I overheard her advice to him b/c my dad had a bee in his bonnet about Safeway (like Krogers, for our East Coat friends - and 'any Large Grocery Chain' for our out of States friends).

Here's what she said, "Don't criticize others. It makes you sound harsh. Instead, focus on your strong points: Customer Service, Loyalty, Convenience..."

The Strong Points of a Life with Christ Jesus would be somewhat different but it still applies.

~Sparrow

I was baptized in an SDA church in the late 80's. I wouldn't categorically classify them as a cult, just misguided (as most who profess Christianity tend to be). And no, I no longer subscribe to their organization.

All of us (believers) know we aren't walking as Christ walked (Christian). That 'should be' the bar, the perfection or completeness we should strive for, don't you think?

I'm not listed as a Christian here because I'm not walking as Christ walked. Yes, I believe in the Father and Son but I am far from complete and I don't always serve HIS will over mine. That 'should be' the requisite to calling yourself a Christian. Walk the walk.

Perhaps the next time we point out someone's flaws or beliefs, we should look at our own first and make sure we aren't suffering from the same malady, or worse?

Yes, it's easy to bash 'religions'...they're all easily bash-able with their hypocrisy and lack of the Spirit. As a friend of mine once said...and I believe she was right on this too..."Churches aren't a place to find God, they are man-made institutions."

A few verses...


The Pharisee and the Publican

9 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.â€
15 And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. 16 But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17 Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.â€

22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

Well...how is that for a first post? Shall I prepare a second course (denominations study) or should I close the kitchen? ;)

Thanks for this.

 

[By Grace]

No, I'm just trying to relate what worked and what didn't while I was in Salt Lake City for some years witnessing to Mormons.
Granted, what works for me may not get the same results for you. Conversely what works for you may not work for me. Overall though I have observed the build up of defenses when one is perceived as attacking their beliefs. For me it just made things that much harder.

This isn't my house, it's not even a house but a place to meet and communicate with others. A reasonable civil environment is beneficial to all concerned and it's our place to assure you and everyone else can come here and do that with some semblance of peace.

You got me thinking with that reply, so thanks!

There is a guy I met on CARM who moved to SLC to begin a ministry there. I forget the name he chose, but his philosophy of ministry could be summarized as "Did Joseph actually say that? For example, his group will go to blacks, and engage them, then actually show them the racist things that Smith said. When he does that sort of thing, it brings up a "cognizant dissonance" in the people his group meets, and the seed of doubt is sown.

In the same vein, since I live 30 miles from Palmyra NYI can go to Cumorrah, and engage the missionaries there with the things they may not know, such as how ALL of the Three witnesses recanted their attestation that they saw the golden plates in person. As a former teacher in New York, I can also ask them why the story of the great civilization described in the Book of Mormon is not included in the NYS regents core curriculum for social studies. Then I can show them a picture of Ganodagan (outside Victor NY) 8 miles from the Smith homestead was a pinnacle civilization of Native Americans, who lived in bark sided long houses, and not in any city. The settlement of Ganodagan was destroyed in the French and Indian war in the 1760s.

So in a nutshell, because there is so much in Mormonism that is contrary to what their official book says, I stick with that and do not use the Bible, excepting when they claim that their doctrine of "eternal progression into godhood is taught in the Bible.

On the other hand, because their heretical doctrines are supposedly based upon Scripture, I will take the Bible verses which purportedly support that,and one by one demonstrate through context and exegesis that their "supporting Scriptures" do not really say what they think it says. One thing that they do hold in common with the Mormons is that they believe that EVERY church other than theirs is apostate.

"creedal Christians" "Sunday worshipers"

These are two of the many epithets by which the SDAz degenerate and dismiss Christians. If they were not so "proud of their obedience" and scornful of those who refuse to be enslaved by Ellen's rules, and have historically (like the Mormons) declared war on the church at large, then we could have peace and communication. But like the Islamists who openly state their hatred for Christians, it is foolishness to trust any Muslim, no matter how peaceful he may appear. Can you understand my parallels here?

If any organization officially states that they are going to kill you because you do not belong to them, or that you will not get to heaven if you do not believe as they believe, then I believe that is necessary to take the Bible in its context and demonstrate that the Bible does not support this or that.

The similarities with each group mentioned above is that they ALL have declared war on the Bride of Christ in what their leaders say, and in what their "holy books" say. That does not mean that I am at war with them, but I do believe that each group takes a different apologetic to reach.

What I am trying to do is to implant a seed of "cognitive dissonance" in each group with the hopes that Holy Spirit will draw them unto Jesus Christ, as found in Scripture. If I were out to "win arguments" then I would be a fool. Every soul is worthwhile, and deserves to hear the Gospel of Jesus. My way is only one of several ways.

 

[Rick W]

I've just never had any positive results with "cognizant dissonance". It did bring a Mormon Bishop into my living room though. I didn't know I was a son of perdition.
<shrugs>

 

[hhh]

I went to one of their services once.

I sort of felt chased away.

They were pushing Ellen White books on me and telling me I should be giving 20% of my income to the church.

And this was on my one and only visit.

They certainly do separate themselves from the rest of christianity.

I've met plenty of them but never once did they talk about Jesus unless I brought it up.

Are they a cult?

This seems to be the controversy.

If they believe you must be saved through Jesus, I guess they are okay.

Just a little different from the rest of us.

I was reading the Jesuit Oath; they say, Place girls into believing homes, and cause divisions among believers over small things, etc.
That isn't an exact quote.
It's been years since I read the Jesuit Oath; but, I believe E.G. White was a Jesuit.
Maybe reading the Jesuit Oath will shed some light on this subject?
It might also help to remember how much the SDA church has changed lately.