A Bizarre Passage in Revelation 20

[Vince]

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


As a Catholic, I was taught that the wicked would never get out of Hell. After I accepted Christ, I was surprised by this passage. The people in Hell do leave Hell to rise from the dead.

"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire." Who does this refer to? Nobody is dead, and nobody is in Hell.

In both Hebrew and Greek, a lake is smaller than a sea. The lake of fire is smaller than the Sea of Galilee. How many people can you fit into this lake?

I make no apologies for being a rock-rib fundamentalist, but the Bible does not clearly teach on the eternal fate of the wicked.

 

[jasoncran]

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


As a Catholic, I was taught that the wicked would never get out of Hell. After I accepted Christ, I was surprised by this passage. The people in Hell do leave Hell to rise from the dead.

"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire." Who does this refer to? Nobody is dead, and nobody is in Hell.

In both Hebrew and Greek, a lake is smaller than a sea. The lake of fire is smaller than the Sea of Galilee. How many people can you fit into this lake?

I make no apologies for being a rock-rib fundamentalist, but the Bible does not clearly teach on the eternal fate of the wicked.

hades isnt hell. the hell often taught by the rcc is the lake of gehanna where the lost after being ressurected for judgment are sent. hades and the sea and death are places where the dead in christ and the lost were. so they were bringing the dead to be judged.

you need to read up on what sheol is from the jewish perspective and what hades is to the greek and see the striking similarities and then you will see why some translations used hades in the ot when sheol was used in the first place. the lxx was written to the greek speaking jews that knew nothing of hebrew but knew what hades was. and hades while not exactly what the sheol idea is, but its real close.

pm stovebolts.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


As a Catholic, I was taught that the wicked would never get out of Hell. After I accepted Christ, I was surprised by this passage. The people in Hell do leave Hell to rise from the dead.

"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire." Who does this refer to? Nobody is dead, and nobody is in Hell.

In both Hebrew and Greek, a lake is smaller than a sea. The lake of fire is smaller than the Sea of Galilee. How many people can you fit into this lake?

I make no apologies for being a rock-rib fundamentalist, but the Bible does not clearly teach on the eternal fate of the wicked.

Firstly, the word "hell" doesn't appear in the Greek manuscripts.

Secondly, There are three Greek words translated into the one English word "hell". This is misleading and has caused confusion in the Christian world. The Greek words are: hades, gehenna and tartarus

By the way, Hades is the Greek equivalent of sheol.

Anyway, an interesting point to note is that Hades cannot be the place of hell since the KJV clearly says that hell itself (Hades) will be cast in to the lake of fire! How can this be so? If Hades (hell in the KJV) is fire how can it be cast into itself? See Rev 20:14. The obvious meaning of the text is that "death and hell [the grave, the place of the dead] were cast into the lake of fire", that is all that is a reminder of sin will be exterminated!

There is only one passage in the NT where fires are associated with hades and that is in Luke 16:23. However, this passage is a Parable and so in itself cannot be regarded as doctrinally definitive.

I am sorry to tell you this, but the Catholics have taught you error, because there is no eternal hell. The Bible never teaches it.

The lost shall be destroyed in a fire (Psalm 145:20); they will die (Ezekiel 18:4); they will perish (John 3:16); they will be cut off (Psalm 37:28); they will be consumed (Psalm 37:20); they will be burned up (Psalm 97:3); and they shall be no more (Psalm 37:10, Oba 1:16).

And for the record, forever, everlasting and eternal in the Bible doesn't always mean endless as we know it! There are over 50 times "for ever and ever","everlasting" and "eternal" have been used to things in Bible which has already come to pass and have ended! The problem lies in english translations! In the original languages eternal fire is a foreign thought.

There is no such thing as a "burning eternal place" that the lost are alive and burn and burn in agony! No such teaching in the original languages. This teaching of a never ending hellfire is an invention and doctrine of the Devil.

 

[Vince]

"The lost shall be destroyed in a fire (Psalm 145:20)"

Uhm, let's look at that verse:

Psalm 145:20 The LORD preserves all who love Him, But all the wicked He will destroy.

 

[jasoncran]

really? what about the part in this same chapter that says the dead are judged.? how can the wicked once dead be raised to be "destroyed again"

neither does the bible suport heaven or any eternal life we take the aeon the same as you do for when it talks about tartoroo. forever and ever.

wheres westexas. this is his forte.

i must correct you. the kjv was not written by the catholics but by an anglican group. and tyndnale had his version before the kjv ever did. so what bible do you read or are you fluent in greek and hebrew?

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

really? what about the part in this same chapter that says the dead are judged.? how can the wicked once dead be raised to be "destroyed again"

neither does the bible suport heaven or any eternal life we take the aeon the same as you do for when it talks about tartoroo. forever and ever.

wheres westexas. this is his forte.

i must correct you. the kjv was not written by the catholics but by an anglican group. and tyndnale had his version before the kjv ever did. so what bible do you read or are you fluent in greek and hebrew?

1. All die the saved and lost, but only the lost will be destroyed in the SECOND DEATH, thrown into the lake of fire which will consume the lost and destroy them. Even Satan will be destroyed and refused immortality and eternal life, Heb 2:14.

2. The lost aren't destroyed twice, the Bible never says that. You are confusing Scripture. The lost die ONCE and are raised for judgement and then thrown into the lake of fire which Jesus brings down onto the Earth when the lost and Satan try to take over the Holy City.

3. The key is the word IMMORTALITY! See my other thread about eternal hellfire which I discuss this. Only the saved get access to the tree of life, hence, the lost will not and will PERISH!

4. Are you suggesting that Satan and the lost will also be given immortality so they can life forever in the fire, even though they don't have access to the Tree of Life?

 

[n2thelight]

really? what about the part in this same chapter that says the dead are judged.? how can the wicked once dead be raised to be "destroyed again"

neither does the bible suport heaven or any eternal life we take the aeon the same as you do for when it talks about tartoroo. forever and ever.

wheres westexas. this is his forte.

i must correct you. the kjv was not written by the catholics but by an anglican group. and tyndnale had his version before the kjv ever did. so what bible do you read or are you fluent in greek and hebrew?

It's all about the condition of the soul,once changed at the 7th trump,meaning you will either have a mortal soul or an immortal one

They are called the dead because their soul did not put on immortality at that change,contrary to what many think,the soul is not automatically immortal,it must become that way......

 

[jasoncran]

moses and elijah during the transfiguration appeared to the lord. ye they were dead over a few centuries and theres no tree of life in heaven as happends when the city of new jerusalem. and that particular tree of life is for the healing of nations.

hmm why would God need to heal nations with eternal after said final judgments if we already have been given eternal life.

i dont pretend to understand this all. but i am not dogmatic on what happens in the lake of fire. so jesus spent more time talking about a figurative torment then he did on a real existing heaven?

i have a problem with that

just so you know i was a jw raised in it. the jw teach neither hell for the sinner nor heaven for most saints. the sinner isnt raised he stays in the grave and theres no soul.

yet paul said that the unjust and just are raised the just to eternal bliss and the lost to eternal contempt. why would God raise something to simply destroy it again?

 

[jasoncran]

acts 24 14But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

hmm and uh the lake of gehenna actually refers to a particular dump. if you are going to claim that hellfire damnation is symbolic at least get the sybology of revalation right.

so that would mean one stinky day wouldnt it. so satan and the beast die in this fire as it would a literal one as well.

and this john 5

25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


now then both are ressurected and one is not destroyed and other is according to your argument. the lost die twice! they must. the lake of gehanna is such a fate as that is eternal seperation from God.

on satan

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

so in this literal lake where they are tormented the greek word is tartaroo. with is the word where tartarus is related . it meants torture.

 

[Vince]

Russelites (who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses) go to great lengths to explain away Luke 16's vivid description of Hades. The rich man was tormented in the flame in Hades. Claiming that it is a parable, they claim that it shows how the Jews are rejected while the Gentiles are now accepted. But both Jews and Gentiles were always accepted when they turned to God in the Old Testament, the ministry of John the Baptist, the ministry of Jesus, and in the rest of the New testament.

The story is not a parable, but a literally true description of Hades.

It is true that Hades is used to translate the Hebrew word sheol. But unlike sheol, the word Hades never refers to the grave. The Greek word refers to a literal, physical place whose inhabitants are conscious.

And now, the question I often ask: Where does the Bible teach that the people in Hades can never be saved? Book, chapter, and verse, please.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

moses and elijah during the transfiguration appeared to the lord. ye they were dead over a few centuries and theres no tree of life in heaven as happends when the city of new jerusalem. and that particular tree of life is for the healing of nations.

hmm why would God need to heal nations with eternal after said final judgments if we already have been given eternal life.

i dont pretend to understand this all. but i am not dogmatic on what happens in the lake of fire. so jesus spent more time talking about a figurative torment then he did on a real existing heaven?

i have a problem with that

just so you know i was a jw raised in it. the jw teach neither hell for the sinner nor heaven for most saints. the sinner isnt raised he stays in the grave and theres no soul.

yet paul said that the unjust and just are raised the just to eternal bliss and the lost to eternal contempt. why would God raise something to simply destroy it again?

1. Can you please show me proof that it was literally moses and elijah during the transfiguration appearing? Bible support? I believe it was a future vision of a future event.

2. Can you please show me biblical support that there exists NO tree of life in paradise today?

3. I disagree with most of what JW teach, but I do believe some JW are saved, and I do believe they do teach truth regarding hellfire.

4. God raises the lost so Satan can deceive them one more time and attack the city of God. This is to show all the redeemed that God was right and the lost had not repented even after knowing the truth about God. There is a PURPOSE behind this event.

At the close of the 1,000 years (when Jesus comes the third time) the wicked will be raised. Satan, loosed from his bonds, will then have an earth full of people (all the nations of the world) to deceive once more.

Third coming of Jesus with His saints (Zechariah 14:5).
Holy city settles on mount of Olives, which becomes a great plain (Zechariah 14:4, 10).
The Father, angels, and all of the righteous come with Jesus (Revelation 21:1-3; Matthew 25:31; Zechariah 14:5).
Wicked dead raised; Satan loosed (Revelation 20:5, 7).
Satan deceives entire world (Revelation 20:8).
Wicked surround the holy city (Revelation 20:9).
Wicked destroyed by fire (Revelation 20:9).
New heavens and earth created (Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1).
God's people enjoy eternity with Christ on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

 

[Vince]

Some time ago, I did a detailed study on Hades, reading everything I could find on the place. The Greeks spoke little about it, but taught that it had rivers and dry land, palaces, parties, and the souls of the dead. One story describes it as a place of misery but it is generally described as pleasantly dull.

Tartaros is a place of torment located below Hades, while some stories describe Tartaros as being part of Hades. Luke 16 is the only place that describes Hades as a place of torment, but Jesus did not say that everyone in Hades was tormented in the flame.

The Greeks seemed to assume that residence in Hades was permanent, but they are not specific about it.

There is no question that Hades is a place of consciousness, and the word is never used by the Greeks to refer to the grave.

 

[westtexas]

Russelites (who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses) go to great lengths to explain away Luke 16's vivid description of Hades. The rich man was tormented in the flame in Hades.

The story is not a parable, but a literally true description of Hades.


And now, the question I often ask: Where does the Bible teach that the people in Hades can never be saved? Book, chapter, and verse, please.

Hello Vince, how about the one you have brought up.

Luke 16:26---"And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." KJV


Westtexas

 

[Elijah674]

Firstly, the word "hell" doesn't appear in the Greek manuscripts.

Secondly, There are three Greek words translated into the one English word "hell". This is misleading and has caused confusion in the Christian world. The Greek words are: hades, gehenna and tartarus

By the way, Hades is the Greek equivalent of sheol.

Anyway, an interesting point to note is that Hades cannot be the place of hell since the KJV clearly says that hell itself (Hades) will be cast in to the lake of fire! How can this be so? If Hades (hell in the KJV) is fire how can it be cast into itself? See Rev 20:14. The obvious meaning of the text is that "death and hell [the grave, the place of the dead] were cast into the lake of fire", that is all that is a reminder of sin will be exterminated!

There is only one passage in the NT where fires are associated with hades and that is in Luke 16:23. However, this passage is a Parable and so in itself cannot be regarded as doctrinally definitive.

I am sorry to tell you this, but the Catholics have taught you error, because there is no eternal hell. The Bible never teaches it.

The lost shall be destroyed in a fire (Psalm 145:20); they will die (Ezekiel 18:4); they will perish (John 3:16); they will be cut off (Psalm 37:28); they will be consumed (Psalm 37:20); they will be burned up (Psalm 97:3); and they shall be no more (Psalm 37:10, Oba 1:16).

And for the record, forever, everlasting and eternal in the Bible doesn't always mean endless as we know it! There are over 50 times "for ever and ever","everlasting" and "eternal" have been used to things in Bible which has already come to pass and have ended! The problem lies in english translations! In the original languages eternal fire is a foreign thought.

There is no such thing as a "burning eternal place" that the lost are alive and burn and burn in agony! No such teaching in the original languages. This teaching of a never ending hellfire is an invention and doctrine of the Devil.

Excellent post!
It is hard to believe that some 'think'(?) that hell will burn eternally having [IMMORTAL] sinners there! But this is just one of many such false doctrine's for why the Word of God 'Documents' that the Rev. 17:1-5 ones are what they are! (James 2:10)

--Elijah

 

[Vince]

Hello Vince, how about the one you have brought up.

Luke 16:26---"And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." KJV


Westtexas

Valid point, Westtexas. The argument I have heard is that the people being tormented in Hades cannot get out, even if they accept Christ, until they rise from the dead in Revelation 20.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

There is no question that Hades is a place of consciousness, and the word is never used by the Greeks to refer to the grave.

Incorrect!!!

Beyond any question, hades is a place of death, darkness & silence.

In the Hebrew and Greek, Sheol[Hebrew] and Hades,Tartaroo and Gehenna[Greek] is a place of death, darkness & silence. In other words, the grave! But the English word "Hell" means an eternal burning place of agony! But in the original Hebrew/Greek, there is no such word as "hell".

Rich man and Lazarus is the ONLY passage in the NT of suffering in Hades, but as I have biblically proven in another post, the Rich Man and Lazarus is a PARABLE and not literal.

YES YOU HEARD RIGHT.. ONLY ONE SINGLE PLACE IN THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT BIBLE is suffering connected to HADES and that only appears in the Parable.

And as I mentioned earlier, there is only one passage in the NT where fires are associated with hades and that is in Luke 16:23. However, this passage is a Parable and so in itself cannot be regarded as doctrinally definitive.

 

[TruthSeeker2012]

Excellent post!
It is hard to believe that some 'think'(?) that hell will burn eternally having [IMMORTAL] sinners there! But this is just one of many such false doctrine's for why the Word of God 'Documents' that the Rev. 17:1-5 ones are what they are! (James 2:10)

--Elijah

AMEN!

 

[Vince]

Both the Bible and Greek literature describe Hades as a place of conscious awareness.

Explaining away passages you don't like by saying that they are only symbolic will not explain away the fact that your symbolism does not work.

 

[jasoncran]

that would also mean heaven is a place where no man resides and that much of Johns vision is symbolic as men that were seen in robes werent realy there just imagery alluding to something else.

if hell is a symbol then also must heaven be as in that parable both are described for is ts2012 is going to say that the men that God said were alive and with him in this verse arent alive but symbols

matthew 22 kjv.

28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living]

and if the tree of life isnt in heaven then where on earth is it and if its require for the eternal soul then why doesnt or didnt paul teach that? is our new bodies going to have death? did you ever think that was for the millenial saints that didnt attack jerusalem as that tree is on the earth after the final death and destruction of satan.

and this again from matthew 17

1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only. 9And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

so what is the difference of a vision and a parable? its not a parable and John and host of other prophets saw God in vision does that make God a symbol?
could said men be symbols or have symbolic nature? not likely as theres no signature and they talked to the lord on his death and ressurection and neither were said to be angels as angels are told but these were named with names of past prophets whose bodies werent found.

while i dont pretend to understand these things fully nor were we meant to but your position holds little weight.

 

[childeye]

I am intrigued by this thread. I am humbled by the various learned positions regarding interpretation of manuscript. I would ask that some thought be given to the idea that the fall of man began in the belief that God was holding out on man in that mankind found fault in their station appointed by God. This would explain the children of the devil as always desiring a higher place. The same can be seen in the description of the rich man in Sheol and the poor man found in the bosom of Abraham. Could it be that the rich man cannot change the condition of his soul due to his having comfort in this world, while the poor man is proned to be thankful to God for the least of comforts? Hence what we believe makes us what we are.