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A Catholic Understanding of Mary

A

Apostolic_Believer

Guest
This is part of a talk I did at my church last week.

There is an official Catholic doctrine on Mary called Mariology, but I’m just going to be listing some significant Catholic beliefs about Mary. I'm going to list many questions that protestants have asked me about Mary (I will bold the questions) and will explain what we as Catholics believe. These questions are real questions that I have encountered in my protestant brothers in Christ. Listed are just six of the beliefs that we as Catholics believe about Mary.

1.) Perpetual Virgin/ Ever Virgin
2.) Immaculate Conception (is about Mary not having original sin)
3.) Assumption of Mary into Heaven
4.) Queen of heaven and that she is the Ark of the Covenant
5.) Mother of God
6.) Our Mother

Now I’ve realized when talking to Protestants that the idea of honoring Mary is a tough concept for them to grasp. They just don’t understand and here is why:
Almost all Protestants are taught that Mary is just a vessel or an incubator. They are taught that she was a sinner, that she had children besides Jesus, and that she was just like any other human. It is sad how much of Christian society has dropped the ball on the importance of Mary.

1.) You Catholics, you and your beliefs about Mary. Don’t you know that she was just an incubator for Jesus?

Luke 1:48- Mary says that all generations shall call me blessed.

I didn’t recall the bible saying that all generations will call me an incubator. I guess some scripture passages don’t count.

Blessed- highly favored, divine grace, worthy of veneration, holy, sacred, heavenly.

2.) We hear over and over again that our beliefs aren’t in scripture. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was a perpetual virgin, but the bible talks about Jesus having brothers and sisters. They will say, how can Mary be a perpetual virgin if Jesus has brothers and sisters.
Mark 6:3- Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joses, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?"


(after reading this, this looks pretty convincing doesn’t it)

There was no word for cousin, aunt, uncle, nephew, or niece in Aramaic or Hebrew. The words they used were brother or sister.

Mathew 27:55-56- Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

(Mary the mother of Jesus was right there at the cross, but Mary mother of James and Joses was standing from afar or watching from a distance) There are other places in the bible that talks about this Mary. Well so why is scripture calling James and Joses his brother in Mark 6, because they are his cousins.

Acts 1:14-15- the apostles with one accord devoted themselves to prayer together with the women, Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers. The accompany of persons was in all about 120.

(At this time there was 11 apostles, Mary makes 12 people, then there were some woman there maybe 12-20 and Jesus’ brothers) That would mean that Mary would have over 80 sons and daughters there. That would make Mary a perpetual laborer instead of a perpetual virgin.

3.) The Immaculate Conception isn’t in scripture. In fact the word isn’t even in the bible. (Remember that we as Catholics don’t believe that everything has to be in the bible or in the bible alone) Also known as Sola Scriptora. There are many words that aren’t in the bible that we use and believe.
Example: Trinity, Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Bible

So to answer this when someone asks you. The first thing you should do is to ask them this question: Could God have created Mary without sin if he wanted to? Remember that we believe that Mary was conceived without original sin and that she remained sinless throughout her entire lifetime. God created Eve without sin, couldn’t he have done the same with Mary.

Who is greater: The woman who was the instrument in which salvation came to the world, or the woman who was the instrument in which sin came to the world. Is Mary greater than Eve. YES! This can be confirmed through scripture.

Luke 1:42- Elizabeth says to Mary that she is “blessed among women.†And was not Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit when she said this.

Then later on in Luke, Mary says that All Generations will call her blessed. Does the bible say that all generations will call Eve blessed? She bore God in her womb…she is by far the greatest of all women. So then it should be obvious and probable that God would save Mary from Original sin.

Genesis 3:14-15- the lord said to the serpent I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise your heal.

(This is the only place in scripture where it mentions the woman’s seed and we know why, because Mary conceived Jesus of the Holy Spirit and not of man). It is obvious in this passage that this woman is Mary.

God said that he would put enmity between the woman and Satin.
Enmity- hostility between enemies, if you sin then you are on Satin’s side. So if God put enmity between Mary and Satin, then she can never sin. A response that you will probably hear when saying that Mary was sinless in her life is a passage out of Romans.

Protestant Response:

Romans 3:9-12- I have already charged that all men both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin, as it is written. There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one

Romans 3:23- for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
(See all have sinned that includes Mary)


Well there are some important things to look at with these verses. First of all Paul is quoting the Old Testament and if we don’t look up the verses he is quoting then it is very easy to misinterpret this passage. Read Psalm 14

When you go back and read the Old Testament context you realize that Paul isn’t meaning that ALL have actually sinned. If all go wrong then there is no righteous. When you look at the reference you realize that there is “evil doers†and my people who are part of the generation of the righteous. Maybe Paul is talking about how we all suffer from Original Sin. We all suffer from Original Sin, which Mary was saved through Jesus.

Luke 1:6- they were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.
(Zechariah and Elizabeth walked blamelessly)

Luke 1:15-"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.
(Can one who is filled with the Holy Spirit their entire life commit sin?)

Luke 1:28- “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!â€Â
(Mary is full of grace before Jesus is conceived; can someone who is full of grace and the life of God sin?) (Who was the first Christian? Mary… she was the first person to say YES to Christ.)

Luke 1:37-"For nothing will be impossible with God."

4.) The assumption of Mary isn’t scriptural or the idea of assumption isn’t scriptural.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23- for as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
(See they say, no one rises until Christ comes again).


Hebrews 11:5- Enoch is assumed into heaven
2 Kings 2:11- Elijah is assumed into heaven (both were considered spotless without sin)

Mathew 27:52-53- The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

(When you think about it. If Mary is the most blessed among women, then why is it hard to believe that she was assumed into heaven both body and soul before the return of Christ. I’ve already pointed out through scripture that she was sinless.)

5.) You believe that Mary is the Queen of heaven, but in Jeremiah 7:18- God gets upset at the children of Israel for making offerings to a false God referred to as the Queen of Heaven. See you Catholics refer to Mary as the Queen of heaven…see you worship a false God. Remember that this is a ridiculous argument that ignores Catholic teaching on Mary.

Revelations 12-. A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

(It’s a woman, she is in heaven, and she has a crown on her head. I could be wrong but I don’t think that this is the maid. This woman is either a queen… well then who this woman)

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with a rod of iron.
(Jesus)

Revelation 19:15-16- Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with a rod of iron.†He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

6.) How can Mary be Gods mother, that would make her older than God.
Luke 1:41-43- When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

(Aren’t the lord and God the same thing)

John 20:28- Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
(When Jesus appeared to Thomas did he say My Lord or my God… no he said my lord and my God)

Who is Elizabeth’s Lord? Jesus Christ the man or Jesus Christ the second person in the trinity?

There are those who say Mary is the mother of Jesus but not the Mother of God. They separate Jesus the man from Jesus the God, in doing so they commit an ancient heresy.
Jesus was and is a divine person. Do we say that our mothers were simply the incubators of our physical bodies but not the mothers of our persons?
Some will say that calling Mary the mother of God we are saying that Mary became before God. Not at all, she is a creature that was created by God. She was also given the privilege of being the Mother of the second person in the trinity, the mother of God. A mystery. Absolutely. Do our finite minds fully comprehend what happened? No, but that doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen.

7.) How come you say that Mary is your mother?

Revelation 12:17- Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspringâ€â€those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

(We have already established that the woman is Mary. And who are her offspring- the ones who obey God’s commandments and hold testimony to Jesus) In other words, any one who is a Christian has Mary as their spiritual mother. That is one of the best things for a convert into Catholicism is that they truly feel that they have a spiritual mother. I’ve heard many say that.

John 19:26-27- When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "woman, behold your son," and to the disciple, "behold your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

(Shouldn’t we imitate the disciple John by taking Mary into our home?)

I’m going to read a series of quotes from a famous person you may have heard from.

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil
Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.
Martin Luther

I’m going to end this with the phrase.
No Mary- No Jesus, Know Mary- Know Jesus.
If there was no Mary, then there wouldn’t have been Jesus.
If you know Mary, then you know Jesus.
 
1.) Perpetual Virgin/ Ever Virgin
Not only is this not based in scripture it is perfectly illogical. Mary was married and Jesus had Brothers, there is only one immaculate conception and only one other method of conception at that time in history.

2.) Immaculate Conception (is about Mary not having original sin)
This has no basis in scripture andd straight up calls scripture errant for Romans 3:23 very plainly states that "all" have sinned and does not make an exclusion for Mary or anyone else.{
3.) Assumption of Mary into Heaven
Once more a man made doctrine with no basis what so ever on the Word of God.
4.) Queen of heaven and that she is the Ark of the Covenant
Wow! straight out of the peanut section and a complete fabrication.
5.) Mother of God
In context she is the mother of Jesus and this statement should be made only with qualification for indeed, she is not the mother of the Father.
6.) Our Mother
My mother was not nor is she Mary, my mother is Lillian Violet Schoenberg and I can't even imagine the basis for this statement.
 
Boy, the Roman Catholics have to really pervert the Scriptures to get their Mariology doctrine, don't they!!!!!

What a crying shame!

Only the devil twists the Word of God like that!

Beware all of you who submit to Roman Catholicism; for you are being led down the primrose path to destruction. So far, the only Roman Catholic on this forum who has given a legitimate testimony of becoming a child of God by being born again is RoberMazer. The rest are children of God (in their own eyes) because they were baptized into Roman Catholicism.

Why dear Lord Jesus did your simple Gospel become so distant from these people?! Help them see and hear the truth before you return so that they may live in your presence for eternity. I pray for the souls of those in the bondage of Roman Catholicism, that they may come to know you as their Lord and Saviour so that they can know the liberty of your grace. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
 
Apostolic_Believer said:
This is part of a talk I did at my church last week.

There is an official Catholic doctrine on Mary called Mariology, but I’m just going to be listing some significant Catholic beliefs about Mary. I'm going to list many questions that protestants have asked me about Mary (I will bold the questions) and will explain what we as Catholics believe. These questions are real questions that I have encountered in my protestant brothers in Christ. Listed are just six of the beliefs that we as Catholics believe about Mary.

1.) Perpetual Virgin/ Ever Virgin
2.) Immaculate Conception (is about Mary not having original sin)
3.) Assumption of Mary into Heaven
4.) Queen of heaven and that she is the Ark of the Covenant
5.) Mother of God
6.) Our Mother

Now I’ve realized when talking to Protestants that the idea of honoring Mary is a tough concept for them to grasp. They just don’t understand and here is why:
Almost all Protestants are taught that Mary is just a vessel or an incubator. They are taught that she was a sinner, that she had children besides Jesus, and that she was just like any other human. It is sad how much of Christian society has dropped the ball on the importance of Mary.

1.) You Catholics, you and your beliefs about Mary. Don’t you know that she was just an incubator for Jesus?

Luke 1:48- Mary says that all generations shall call me blessed.

I didn’t recall the bible saying that all generations will call me an incubator. I guess some scripture passages don’t count.

Blessed- highly favored, divine grace, worthy of veneration, holy, sacred, heavenly.

2.) We hear over and over again that our beliefs aren’t in scripture. The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was a perpetual virgin, but the bible talks about Jesus having brothers and sisters. They will say, how can Mary be a perpetual virgin if Jesus has brothers and sisters.
Mark 6:3- Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joses, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?"


(after reading this, this looks pretty convincing doesn’t it)

There was no word for cousin, aunt, uncle, nephew, or niece in Aramaic or Hebrew. The words they used were brother or sister.

Mathew 27:55-56- Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

(Mary the mother of Jesus was right there at the cross, but Mary mother of James and Joses was standing from afar or watching from a distance) There are other places in the bible that talks about this Mary. Well so why is scripture calling James and Joses his brother in Mark 6, because they are his cousins.

Acts 1:14-15- the apostles with one accord devoted themselves to prayer together with the women, Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers. The accompany of persons was in all about 120.

(At this time there was 11 apostles, Mary makes 12 people, then there were some woman there maybe 12-20 and Jesus’ brothers) That would mean that Mary would have over 80 sons and daughters there. That would make Mary a perpetual laborer instead of a perpetual virgin.

3.) The Immaculate Conception isn’t in scripture. In fact the word isn’t even in the bible. (Remember that we as Catholics don’t believe that everything has to be in the bible or in the bible alone) Also known as Sola Scriptora. There are many words that aren’t in the bible that we use and believe.
Example: Trinity, Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Bible

So to answer this when someone asks you. The first thing you should do is to ask them this question: Could God have created Mary without sin if he wanted to? Remember that we believe that Mary was conceived without original sin and that she remained sinless throughout her entire lifetime. God created Eve without sin, couldn’t he have done the same with Mary.

Who is greater: The woman who was the instrument in which salvation came to the world, or the woman who was the instrument in which sin came to the world. Is Mary greater than Eve. YES! This can be confirmed through scripture.

Luke 1:42- Elizabeth says to Mary that she is “blessed among women.†And was not Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit when she said this.

Then later on in Luke, Mary says that All Generations will call her blessed. Does the bible say that all generations will call Eve blessed? She bore God in her womb…she is by far the greatest of all women. So then it should be obvious and probable that God would save Mary from Original sin.

Genesis 3:14-15- the lord said to the serpent I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise your heal.

(This is the only place in scripture where it mentions the woman’s seed and we know why, because Mary conceived Jesus of the Holy Spirit and not of man). It is obvious in this passage that this woman is Mary.

God said that he would put enmity between the woman and Satin.
Enmity- hostility between enemies, if you sin then you are on Satin’s side. So if God put enmity between Mary and Satin, then she can never sin. A response that you will probably hear when saying that Mary was sinless in her life is a passage out of Romans.

Protestant Response:

Romans 3:9-12- I have already charged that all men both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin, as it is written. There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one

Romans 3:23- for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
(See all have sinned that includes Mary)


Well there are some important things to look at with these verses. First of all Paul is quoting the Old Testament and if we don’t look up the verses he is quoting then it is very easy to misinterpret this passage. Read Psalm 14

When you go back and read the Old Testament context you realize that Paul isn’t meaning that ALL have actually sinned. If all go wrong then there is no righteous. When you look at the reference you realize that there is “evil doers†and my people who are part of the generation of the righteous. Maybe Paul is talking about how we all suffer from Original Sin. We all suffer from Original Sin, which Mary was saved through Jesus.

Luke 1:6- they were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.
(Zechariah and Elizabeth walked blamelessly)

Luke 1:15-"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb.
(Can one who is filled with the Holy Spirit their entire life commit sin?)

Luke 1:28- “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!â€Â
(Mary is full of grace before Jesus is conceived; can someone who is full of grace and the life of God sin?) (Who was the first Christian? Mary… she was the first person to say YES to Christ.)

Luke 1:37-"For nothing will be impossible with God."

4.) The assumption of Mary isn’t scriptural or the idea of assumption isn’t scriptural.

1 Corinthians 15:22-23- for as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
(See they say, no one rises until Christ comes again).


Hebrews 11:5- Enoch is assumed into heaven
2 Kings 2:11- Elijah is assumed into heaven (both were considered spotless without sin)

Mathew 27:52-53- The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

(When you think about it. If Mary is the most blessed among women, then why is it hard to believe that she was assumed into heaven both body and soul before the return of Christ. I’ve already pointed out through scripture that she was sinless.)

5.) You believe that Mary is the Queen of heaven, but in Jeremiah 7:18- God gets upset at the children of Israel for making offerings to a false God referred to as the Queen of Heaven. See you Catholics refer to Mary as the Queen of heaven…see you worship a false God. Remember that this is a ridiculous argument that ignores Catholic teaching on Mary.

Revelations 12-. A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

(It’s a woman, she is in heaven, and she has a crown on her head. I could be wrong but I don’t think that this is the maid. This woman is either a queen… well then who this woman)

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with a rod of iron.
(Jesus)

Revelation 19:15-16- Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with a rod of iron.†He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

6.) How can Mary be Gods mother, that would make her older than God.
Luke 1:41-43- When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

(Aren’t the lord and God the same thing)

John 20:28- Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
(When Jesus appeared to Thomas did he say My Lord or my God… no he said my lord and my God)

Who is Elizabeth’s Lord? Jesus Christ the man or Jesus Christ the second person in the trinity?

There are those who say Mary is the mother of Jesus but not the Mother of God. They separate Jesus the man from Jesus the God, in doing so they commit an ancient heresy.
Jesus was and is a divine person. Do we say that our mothers were simply the incubators of our physical bodies but not the mothers of our persons?
Some will say that calling Mary the mother of God we are saying that Mary became before God. Not at all, she is a creature that was created by God. She was also given the privilege of being the Mother of the second person in the trinity, the mother of God. A mystery. Absolutely. Do our finite minds fully comprehend what happened? No, but that doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen.

7.) How come you say that Mary is your mother?

Revelation 12:17- Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspringâ€â€those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

(We have already established that the woman is Mary. And who are her offspring- the ones who obey God’s commandments and hold testimony to Jesus) In other words, any one who is a Christian has Mary as their spiritual mother. That is one of the best things for a convert into Catholicism is that they truly feel that they have a spiritual mother. I’ve heard many say that.

John 19:26-27- When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "woman, behold your son," and to the disciple, "behold your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

(Shouldn’t we imitate the disciple John by taking Mary into our home?)

I’m going to read a series of quotes from a famous person you may have heard from.

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil
Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.
Martin Luther

I’m going to end this with the phrase.
No Mary- No Jesus, Know Mary- Know Jesus.
If there was no Mary, then there wouldn’t have been Jesus.
If you know Mary, then you know Jesus.

Sorry, but not only is ther no scripture claiming that Mary was a perpetual virgin or sinless, Matthew 1:25 and Luke 1:47 says the exact opposite. So the Catholics are blatantly contradicting the bible.

And Paul tells us not to quibble about words, especially easy words like: "He had no union with her until she gave birth to a son" and "brother". The bible also uses the word "cousin when someone is a cousin and thus would have used that word describing Christ's brothers if they were really his cousins. So trying to quibble over words and make them say what you want them to say is again disagreeing with the bible. So why do it? Why not change the pope's words? Because the catholics think the pope can never be wrong. But God? Oh yes, his words can be quibbled with and changed. :roll: That proves that the Catholics don't worship God, but people like the pope and Mary. And by the way, the only thing that separates hum ans from God is sin. So if the catholics claim Mary was sinless, they are turning her into a god. It's disgusting.
 
On the matter of "perpetual virginity":

Whether this is the intent or not, a belief that Mary was a perpetual virgin will lead to a belief that virginity is a morally superior state than a state of "non-virginity". Since Mary is venerated, her virginity gets the stamp of veneration as well.

I think this may have something to do with what I believe is an often unhealthy view of sexuality in the Christian community. If we come to believe that virginity is an "ideal" state, we implicitly view sexual expression as "base" or "fallen" or even sinful. And within marriage, it obviously is not.
 
Drew said:
On the matter of "perpetual virginity":

Whether this is the intent or not, a belief that Mary was a perpetual virgin will lead to a belief that virginity is a morally superior state than a state of "non-virginity". Since Mary is venerated, her virginity gets the stamp of veneration as well.

I think this may have something to do with what I believe is an often unhealthy view of sexuality in the Christian community. If we come to believe that virginity is an "ideal" state, we implicitly view sexual expression as "base" or "fallen" or even sinful. And within marriage, it obviously is not.
I totally agree! Good assertion.
 
I’m going to end this with the phrase.
No Mary- No Jesus, Know Mary- Know Jesus.
If there was no Mary, then there wouldn’t have been Jesus.
If you know Mary, then you know Jesus.
Unfortunately, there is no Scriptural support for this belief.

Nothing in Scripture says to look to Mary to know Jesus. Actually, we are taught that to know the Father, we must go through Jesus.

John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

If not Mary as the one chosen, then someone else. God's will be done. 8-) My question has always been; why divert devotion and worship from The One who created you? It seems like a waste of good prayer and supplication.

Josh 24:15 ... And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
 
destiny said:
Whether this is the intent or not, a belief that Mary was a perpetual virgin will lead to a belief that virginity is a morally superior state than a state of "non-virginity". Since Mary is venerated, her virginity gets the stamp of veneration as well.

I think the writings of Paul and his discussion on virginity could just as easily lead to that. Also, one must take into account the forces of a few hersies occuring during the beginning of Church history that took on a distorted view of the body vs the spirit (Gnosticism) that tended to downgrade the body and lift up the spirit. Thus, sexuality was often seen as a "necessary evil" among some people. I find it interesting that Pope John Paul 2 wrote over half of all the writings ever written on the subject throughout the 2000 year history of the Church. He provides a corrective to such Greek philosophy that sees sexuality as a lesser thing.

Regards
 
Heidi said:
Sorry, but not only is ther no scripture claiming that Mary was a perpetual virgin or sinless, Matthew 1:25 and Luke 1:47 says the exact opposite. So the Catholics are blatantly contradicting the bible.

Where does it say that Mary had sexual relations EVER with Joseph? Read the Bible more carefully. It only relates their relationship UP TO the birth of Jesus. The Bible says NOTHING explicit about their relationship AFTER Jesus' birth. The word "until" does not mean the preceding state changes after the reference point in time. The state could certainly CONTINUE afterwards. Until says nothing about the future.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Where does it say that Mary had sexual relations EVER with Joseph? Read the Bible more carefully. It only relates their relationship UP TO the birth of Jesus. The Bible says NOTHING explicit about their relationship AFTER Jesus' birth. The word "until" does not mean the preceding state changes after the reference point in time. The state could certainly CONTINUE afterwards. Until says nothing about the future.

Regards

Folks, What is this text implying? He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.....Look at the context down below....Of course it is in the best interest of the CC to try and twist the scriptures around...Note also that I am using the CC very own auth version....




Here is even more proof that Mary was not a virgin after the birth of Jesus....

Folks, I will also be using the NAB bible that the catholics hold in high regard.....

18 Now this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. When his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found with child through the holy Spirit.
19 Joseph her husband, since he was a righteous man, yet unwilling to expose her to shame, decided to divorce her quietly.
20 Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her.
21 She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.â€Â
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son,
and they shall name him Emmanuel,â€Âwhich means “God is with us.â€Â
24 When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home.
25 He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.

Confraternity of Christian Doctrine. Board of Trustees, Catholic Church. National Conference of Catholic Bishops, & United States Catholic Conference. Administrative Board. (1996, c1986). The New American Bible : Translated from the original languages with critical use of all the ancient sources and the revised New Testament (Mt 1:18). Confraternity of Christian Doctrine.

The Greek word that is used for relations is ''γινώσκω''...This word means
Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order.....

So folks, Mary did make mad passionate love with her husband Joseph...
There is no sin in this as it is what God has ordained for a husband and wife....Why the catholic church is so adamant in holding on to this lie is a mystery........to me.....
 
:robot: See there you go using the Bible to state your case, which is totally false, :robot: According to us Catholics, Mary was never accorded that. :robot: What we as Catholics believe is that Protestants are worshipping the Bible. :robot: How do we know so, well because the Pope says so and he's infallible in these matters. :robot: Besides one of Fatima's revelations said she was real and to worship her was not a sin, but pleases God. :robot: Besides the Vatican sancti-ons it :robot: So there! :robot: I'll pray for all you heretics! :robot:
Medevil chants begin
Omni-ous
Po-tent-ous
Regium
Vaticanous
:robot:
 
It is annoying isn't it but not as creepy as those Mary pictures of yours in that other post! Its a BORG from Star Trek. A cybernetically enhance Smiley.
 
jgredline said:
Here is even more proof that Mary was not a virgin after the birth of Jesus....

Folks, I will also be using the NAB bible that the catholics hold in high regard.....

You should change your picture to a parrot, because that is all you are doing - repeating exactly what you already said and I have answered. To prove you do not have a clue on the use of the word "until", I will give you an example of how you presume too much.


Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue. For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet 1 Cor 15:24-25.

Does this mean, according to your logic, that Christ will cease to reign AFTER all enemies are put under His feet?

Enough said. Case closed. You don't have any proof for your case from the Bible alone.
 
francisdesales said:
You should change your picture to a parrot, because that is all you are doing - repeating exactly what you already said and I have answered. To prove you do not have a clue on the use of the word "until", I will give you an example of how you presume too much.


Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue. For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet 1 Cor 15:24-25.

Does this mean, according to your logic, that Christ will cease to reign AFTER all enemies are put under His feet?


Enough said. Case closed. You don't have any proof for your case from the Bible alone.

Not so fast.....that verse you quoted as your defense does nothing...You see the bible is a simple book...God says what he means and he means what he says....At the end of the millennial kingdom, Jesus will indeed hand over his reign back to God...Just like the scripture says....This will indeed happen after all his enemies have been thrown into the lake of fire.....



greencheekedamazonparrozm0.jpg


Folks, What is this text implying? He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.....Look at the context down below....Of course it is in the best interest of the CC to try and twist the scriptures around...Note also that I am using the CC very own auth version....




Here is even more proof that Mary was not a virgin after the birth of Jesus....

Folks, I will also be using the NAB bible that the catholics hold in high regard.....

18 Now this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. When his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found with child through the holy Spirit.
19 Joseph her husband, since he was a righteous man, yet unwilling to expose her to shame, decided to divorce her quietly.
20 Such was his intention when, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her.
21 She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.â€Â
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son,
and they shall name him Emmanuel,â€Âwhich means “God is with us.â€Â
24 When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took his wife into his home.
25 He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.

Confraternity of Christian Doctrine. Board of Trustees, Catholic Church. National Conference of Catholic Bishops, & United States Catholic Conference. Administrative Board. (1996, c1986). The New American Bible : Translated from the original languages with critical use of all the ancient sources and the revised New Testament (Mt 1:18). Confraternity of Christian Doctrine.

The Greek word that is used for relations is ''γινώσκω''...This word is a
Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order.....

So folks, Mary did make mad passionate love with her husband Joseph...
There is no sin in this as it is what God has ordained for a husband and wife....Why the catholic church is so adamant in holding on to this lie is a mystery........to me.....
 
francisdesales said:
You should change your picture to a parrot, because that is all you are doing - repeating exactly what you already said and I have answered. To prove you do not have a clue on the use of the word "until", I will give you an example of how you presume too much.


Afterwards the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God and the Father, when he shall have brought to nought all principality, and power, and virtue. For he must reign, until he hath put all his enemies under his feet 1 Cor 15:24-25.

Does this mean, according to your logic, that Christ will cease to reign AFTER all enemies are put under His feet?

Enough said. Case closed. You don't have any proof for your case from the Bible alone.

If I may suggest - it would be helpful to know that PART OF SPEECH and the GREEK that is being used in both verses.

I will give you a hint - one is a conjunction, the other is not. Knowing the part of speech helps in proper understanding and interpretation.
 
jgredline said:
Not so fast.....that verse you quoted as your defense does nothing...You see the bible is a simple book...God says what he means and he means what he says....At the end of the millennial kingdom, Jesus will indeed hand over his reign back to God...Just like the scripture says....This will indeed happen after all his enemies have been thrown into the lake of fire.....

LOL! Sorry that you cannot interpret such a simple verse. Clearly, Christ will rule forever. But if I use your interpretative logic to the word "until" in 1 Corinthians 15, then I would be saying that Christ will NOT rule forever - which contradicts Luke's Gospel. Plainly, you have proven nothing with "until", since it doesn't ALWAYS discuss the future.

Nice parrot. Can it do tricks?

You can repeat it all you want, but the discerning person will realize the truth of the matter. "Until" doesn't necessarily discuss the future. It is a word that only refers from the past to the present. First Corinthians proves that.

I have given you an example. Refuse to hear it at your own peril. But don't make any more accusations against the Catholic Church and Scriptures until you look to the beam in your own eye.


Regards
 
francisdesales said:
LOL! Sorry that you cannot interpret such a simple verse. Clearly, Christ will rule forever. But if I use your interpretative logic to the word "until" in 1 Corinthians 15, then I would be saying that Christ will NOT rule forever - which contradicts Luke's Gospel. Plainly, you have proven nothing with "until", since it doesn't ALWAYS discuss the future.

Nice parrot. Can it do tricks?

You can repeat it all you want, but the discerning person will realize the truth of the matter. "Until" doesn't necessarily discuss the future. It is a word that only refers from the past to the present. First Corinthians proves that.

I have given you an example. Refuse to hear it at your own peril. But don't make any more accusations against the Catholic Church and Scriptures until you look to the beam in your own eye.


Regards

Since the catholics don't know what the word "until" means in Matthew 1:25, then of course they're the last people to define words. :lol: But they already know that since only one Catholic has responded once to my last 2 threads. They know they're as guilty as Judas in changing the words around in the bible to make them say the opposite of what the bible says. ;-)
 
aLoneVoice said:
If I may suggest - it would be helpful to know that PART OF SPEECH and the GREEK that is being used in both verses.

I will give you a hint - one is a conjunction, the other is not. Knowing the part of speech helps in proper understanding and interpretation.

Semantics... It doesn't make a difference what part of speech "until" is. When you use it in a sentence, it doesn't HAVE to refer to something in the future...

And how about this verse?

Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death. 2 Sam 6:23

The parrot will probably say that Michal gave birth to children AFTER her death... Anyone who still has problems with this is merely spouting off the party line rather than listen to common sense.

I adjure you, fellow Christians. Use some common sense here.

Regards
 
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