A Catholic Understanding of Mary

[jgredline]

Like I said...

Then I guess it is you and Joe who do not see it....You can only beat a dead horse so long....and if until means never to you, then there is nothing I can say that will change your mind...

again, this is first grade grammar and if you do not understand it, then :o

 

[Drew]

Like I said...

Then I guess it is you and Joe who do not see it....You can only beat a dead horse so long....and if until means never to you, then there is nothing I can say that will change your mind...

again, this is first grade grammar and if you do not understand it, then :o

If your "grammar" argument is in fact correct, then you should have no trouble finding a flaw in my argument about the use of the word "until". One cannot claim to have shown one's point if there is an unrefuted counterargument on the table.

Now, how does the grammar argument apply to Fred statement "I did not have intercourse with my wife from August 1 2006 (9 month before Jane is born) until May 1, 2007"? Has Fred constructed an ungrammatical sentence? Obviously he has not - the grammar is fine. Does Fred's use of the word "until" necessarily imply that he had intercourse after May 1, 2007?

Let the reader judge based on arguments already provided.

Here is another example:

A nuclear technician is accused of failing to notice an imminent nuclear accident. He protests his innocence as follows: "I had my eyes glued to the core temperature gauge from 9 AM that day until the very moment of the meltdown". Does this mean that he took his eyes off the guage after the meltdown? No it does not.

He is using the word until to demarcate a specific point in time in relation to an event other than the act of watching the guage - namely the meltdown. That changes the sense altogether. If there was no meltdown and it was just another day at the plant, a statement from him such as "I watched the guage from 9 until 4" would indeed suggest that at 4, he stopped watching the guage.

In respect to Matt 1:25, I think a case can be made that Matthew is trying to drive home the point that Jesus' father could not have been Joseph, not that Mary resumed relations with Joseph after Jesus' birth.

 

[jgredline]

If your "grammar" argument is in fact correct, then you should have no trouble finding a flaw in my argument about the use of the word "until". One cannot claim to have shown one's point if there is an unrefuted counterargument on the table.

Now, how does the grammar argument apply to Fred statement "I did not have intercourse with my wife from August 1 2006 (9 month before Jane is born) until May 1, 2007"? Has Fred constructed an ungrammatical sentence? Obviously he has not - the grammar is fine. Does Fred's use of the word "until" necessarily imply that he had intercourse after May 1, 2007?

Ok Drew since your so smart lets look at your analogy....and lets look at this verse...I just had my 12 year old daughter read it and she understood what it meant......

Does Fred's use of the word "until" necessarily imply that he had intercourse after May 1, 2007?

Yes it does.....Had Fred meant to say that he never had sex jane he would have said ''never''

Now lets take a close look at Matt 1:25
25 He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.


Drews interpretaion.....He had no relations with her not even when she bore a son....
The bible does not says this however.....

Drew...You are trying to imply and make the word until mean never.....
Click here for a definition of until http://www.answers.com/topic/until

Now Drew..The text could imply that they had sex after 3 months or 3 years or 30 years, but they had sex sometime before Joseph died or the text would not say ''until''....

Now Drew, you should admit your wrong and move on lest you loose even more respect from the readers.....

 

[jgredline]

Drew
Even these paraphrases have it right....

The message......Then Joseph woke up. He did exactly what God’s angel commanded in the dream: He married Mary. But he did not consummate the marriage until she had the baby. He named the baby Jesus.

The living bible......24When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel commanded and brought Mary home to be his wife, 25but she remained a virgin until her Son was born; and Joseph named him “Jesus.â€Â

NIV......24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

NLT......24 When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

Frankly, the NLT is right on the money......


Drew....What in tarnation are you talking about????
I can't believe your trying to defend such a ridiculous belief......

 

[francisdesales]

Case reopened. Joe, you picked a bad example. This verse means exactly what you suggested Javier's logic would suggest. By taking the two verses out of context and ignoring similar references in the latter part of Revelation, you missed this passage's meaning.

Vic, when I first stated 1 Cor 15 as my example, I said the Luke's Gospel explains that "until" cannot be used as Javier uses it. That was my point. The Scriptures do not make an explanation in the case of Mary's sexual life AFTER Christ was born. I have said over and over that the MOST a Protestant who disagrees with this can say is from Scripture alone is ...

We don't know.

However, suddenly, the Bible alone people are making presumptions to KNOW that Mary had other biological children. There is no evidence of that, only assumption. If it was so crystal clear and obvious, why did the Church make this a dogmatic belief in the 400's? Why was it believed by the Church for hundreds of years before?

Regards

 

[aj830]

Drew
Even these paraphrases have it right....

The message......Then Joseph woke up. He did exactly what God’s angel commanded in the dream: He married Mary. But he did not consummate the marriage until she had the baby. He named the baby Jesus.

The living bible......24When Joseph awoke, he did as the angel commanded and brought Mary home to be his wife, 25but she remained a virgin until her Son was born; and Joseph named him “Jesus.â€Â

NIV......24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

NLT......24 When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

Frankly, the NLT is right on the money......


Drew....What in tarnation are you talking about????
I can't believe your trying to defend such a ridiculous belief......

None of these imply that he did have relations with her after Jesus was born. Neither do they deny that he had relations. This one verse alone does not prove or disprove Mary's perpetual virginity. You have to draw on more scripture to make that conclusion.

If I say "I did not eat dessert until I got home", the only thing you can be sure of is that I didn't eat dessert before I got home. You can assume that I did eat dessert or you can assume that I didn't eat dessert when I got home. Either way your not certain with the information given.

Drew is not necessarily defending the belief of Mary's perpetual virginity(I don't know his stance on the issue anyway) he is simply stating that this one verse neither denies nor confirms her perpetual virginity.

 

[jgredline]

Sorry buddy, but you are blinded by the evil one.....It is the only explanation as to how you can believe that ''until'' means ''never'' or ''maybe''....


The word until is a ''conjunction''....So what is this word ''connecting''? This is what conjunctions do...In this case this conjunction is connecting the ''verb''
''relations or sexual intercourse'' to an event that took place after Jesus was born.....It really is this simple...... :-?

And by the way...This is not the only verse that shows Ole Mary got hot and heavy with her husband...After all Jesus had many half brothers and sisters, they were not his cousins....

 

[aj830]

Sorry buddy, but you are blinded by the evil one.....It is the only explanation as to how you can believe that ''until'' means ''never'' or ''maybe''....


The word until is a ''conjunction''....So what is this word ''connecting''? This is what conjunctions do...In this case this conjunction is connecting the ''verb''
''relations or sexual intercourse'' to an event that took place after Jesus was born.....It really is this simple......

I never said until means never. I said it only means that they did not have sex until that point. Nothing is denied or affirmed afterward.

Last time I checked until was a preposition :

 

[jgredline]

I never said until means never. I said it only means that they did not have sex until that point. Nothing is denied or affirmed afterward.

Last time I checked until was a preposition :

cool, then you agree that she had sex with her husband....Now you see that was not hard....

The Greek word for until is ἕως This word in the Greek is a conjunction...

 

[Drew]

jgredline:

My argument remains unrefuted and the objective reader without a vested interest in the conclusion will know it. I have clearly shown through 2 detailed examples how certain contexts make the word "until" not necessarily what you claim that it does.

As for your implications regarding reader's respect for me, I will not respond directly but rather let the content of my posts speak.

Does anyone out there have a counterargument to either of my examples?

 

[Guest]

jgredline:

My argument remains unrefuted and the objective reader without a vested interest in the conclusion will know it. I have clearly shown through 2 detailed examples how certain contexts make the word "until" not necessarily what you claim that it does.

As for your implications regarding reader's respect for me, I will not respond directly but rather let the content of my posts speak.

Does anyone out there have a counterargument to either of my examples?

Drew -

Last night I slept until 10am.

What time did I wake up?

 

[francisdesales]

Drew -

Last night I slept until 10am.

What time did I wake up?

Did you die last night and are typing this from an internet cafe in heaven?? :angel:

Regards

 

[Guest]

Did you die last night and are typing this from an internet cafe in heaven?? :angel:

Regards

If I died - I would not be able to tell you that I slept last night.

Fran - I asked a simple question.

 

[francisdesales]

I have a question about the role of Mary in the RCC which I am actually curious about. I understand that RCC allows veneration of Mary, but do Catholics admit that one does not have to venerate her? If not then what kind of compulsory doctrine is presented to venerate her?

Josh,

That is sort of like asking your father if you can cut the grass with the manual, push mower, vs. the motorized riding lawn mower. Sure, we can go through life without any particular devotions to Mary and remain Catholic. Since Catholicism is a voluntary organization, a Catholic would only need to submit themselves to the 4 dogmas of faith regarding her (Mother of God, everlasting Virginity, Immaculate Conception, Assumption).

HOWEVER, the writings of the saints, those who have gone before us walking in Christ most notably vouch for her and the aid she sends by her intercessions and using her as a model. They vouch for the practice of some devotional that helps us to remind us of the faith WE are to have towards God, the faith of a child who accepts God's Will, no matter if we understand or not.

I do not venerate the 12 Apostles for any of their deeds or elevate anyone of them above the others (though I have my personal favorites - who set an example in my eyes). I do not need, however to even include such veneration in my private nor corporate worship sessions.

You certainly could. Why wouldn't you think that a particular saint might pray for you if you developed a relationship with one? And how does this interfere with your relationship with Christ? Since these saints are in total union with God, you cannot have a relationship separate from God if you have one with a saint. I have found that choosing a patron saint and being devoted to one (guess who mine is) can help in our walks with Christ. Each saint has shown that WE can ALSO follow Christ given the lot God has given us. Was Jesus a father of children? Did Jesus have cancer? Was Jesus a woman? However, there were saints who WERE all of these AND STILL were able to give their all to God. They are examples for us. And the wonderful thing is that they are still alive and still able to pray for us, just as we can pray for other Christians here on this earth.

What alleged consequences if any would be levied for not venerating Mary? A slap on the hand at judgement day?

I think it would be a matter of showing how much you trust in God's revelation through Jesus Christ. Do you have the faith of a child? If you believe that God has established a community to continue His work of reaching out to people, bringing all things to Himself, if you believe that God would continue to maintain this organization as the pillar and foundation of the truth, then it follows that obeidence and belief of this Church's doctrine and explanations of God's revelation is obedience to God Himself.

He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. Luke 10:16

Regards

 

[Drew]

Drew -

Last night I slept until 10am.

What time did I wake up?

You woke up at 10 AM. And if words meant exactly the same thing in every situation, we could indeed conclude that Mary was not a virgin her whole life. But the meaning of a words sometimes varies from context to context and let's not pretend that this is not so. It is so.

In the case of the nuclear technician example that I provided, the statement "I had my eyes glued to the core temperature gauge from 9 AM that day until the very moment of the meltdown" in no way implies that the technician took his eyes off the temperature guage after the meltdown occurred. I challenge anyone to claim otherwise.

If someone were to say "Aha!, Mr. Nuclear Technician, so you admit to taking your eyes off the gauge after the meltdown, since you used the word 'until'. That is still an offence for which we can fire you!", the technician could legitimately respond: "I said no such thing - I merely explained what was happening during the period of relevance and I used the word 'until' to demarcate the end of a time interval - that's all".

And, of course, the technician would be right.

 

[Guest]

You woke up at 10 AM. And if words meant exactly the same thing in every situation, we could indeed conclude that Mary was not a virgin her whole life. But the meaning of a words sometimes varies from context to context and let's not pretend that this is not so. It is so.

In the case of the nuclear technician example that I provided, the statement "I had my eyes glued to the core temperature gauge from 9 AM that day until the very moment of the meltdown" in no way implies that the technician took his eyes off the temperature guage after the meltdown occurred. I challenge anyone to claim otherwise.

If someone were to say "Aha!, Mr. Nuclear Technician, so you admit to taking your eyes off the gauge after the meltdown, since you used the word 'until'. That is still an offence for which we can fire you!", the technician could legitimately respond: "I said no such thing - I merely explained what was happening during the period of relevance and I used the word 'until' to demarcate the end of a time interval - that's all".

And, of course, the technician would be right.

So Drew - it would seem then that not only is context important, but also the part of speech being used.

In fact, it isn't the word "until" that tells me he looked away:

The phrase: "I HAD my eyes". That says to me that he did in fact look away. By adding the statement "until" says that he looked at the guage during a specific time - after that time ended he looked away.

Again - CONTEXT is very important.

I would suggest looking up 'until' at http://www.dictionary.com

 

[francisdesales]

If I died - I would not be able to tell you that I slept last night.

Fran - I asked a simple question.

You have given me an example in where the context is pretty straight forward. I have provided an example where "until" does not necessarily tell us of the future. In the context that you suggest, we would normally understand it the way you suggest.

There are a number of examples of "heos" being used in Scriptures to mark a limit - and saying nothing about the future. "Heos" is translated into "til, unto, or until". They refer to termporal references of time.

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. Mat 11:23

Does this mean Sodom would have been destroyed the day after Jesus said this?

A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. Mat 12:20

Does this mean that after judgment, He will break a bruied reed or put out smoking flax?

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:18

Does this mean that there will be no more love after "heaven and earth pass away"?

Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death. 2 Sam 6:23

Naturally, Michal had children after her death, right?

I think we have said enough about this...

Regards

 

[Guest]

You have given me an example in where the context is pretty straight forward. I have provided an example where "until" does not necessarily tell us of the future. In the context that you suggest, we would normally understand it the way you suggest.

There are a number of examples of "heos" being used in Scriptures to mark a limit - and saying nothing about the future. "Heos" is translated into "til, unto, or until". They refer to termporal references of time.

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. Mat 11:23

Does this mean Sodom would have been destroyed the day after Jesus said this?

A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. Mat 12:20

Does this mean that after judgment, He will break a bruied reed or put out smoking flax?

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mat 5:18

Does this mean that there will be no more love after "heaven and earth pass away"?

Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death. 2 Sam 6:23

Naturally, Michal had children after her death, right?

I think we have said enough about this...

Regards

Fran - I do not have my Greek bible handy, plus I getting ready to go to work - In the passages that you provided, is the word translated till, until, or unto "heos" - or are other Greek words used?

Also, is the PART OF SPEECH, the same in each of those verses? Until can be used as a preposition and a conjunction - that would change the meaning.

Not to mention the context of the passage.

Your silly 2 Sam verse illustration proves the point that you are taking the passage out of context. Of course no-one can have children after death - therefore you are attempting to build strawman arguements in an effort to prove your point. This is disengenious at best, and at worst a deliberate attempt to twist Scripture to fit your needs.

 

[jgredline]

There are a number of examples of "heos" being used in Scriptures to mark a limit - and saying nothing about the future. "Heos" is translated into "til, unto, or until". They refer to termporal references of time.

In matt 1:25 the word ''heos'' is used as a conjunction and so it is properly translated ''until''....As I said before, it is connecting the act of sexual intercourse with a period of time...It is not saying never or maybe...If you read further in the same passage, you will also find the definite article which in Greek makes it an emphatic statement....

 

[Drew]

And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. Mat 11:23

Does this mean Sodom would have been destroyed the day after Jesus said this?

Of course not. Here we have yet another clear example of how "until" does not always have the "state-transition" sense that it does in "I will sleep until 9 am". In "I will sleep until 9 AM", there is an obvious implication that sleep ends at 9. Fine. In the Matthew 11 text above, it is equally obvious that there is no implication that Sodom's existence would have come to an end after "this day" simply because the word "until" precedes the phrase "this day".