A closer look at "baptizo" (to baptize)

[John Zain]

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Please see post #2
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[John Zain]

baptizo
-- to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
-- to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self
-- to overwhelm

“Before the emergence of the holiness movement in the mid 19th century and Pentecostalism in the early 20th century, most denominations believed that Christians received the baptism with the Holy Spirit either upon conversion and regeneration or through rites of Christian initiation. Since the growth and spread of Pentecostal and charismatic churches, however, the belief that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is an experience distinct from regeneration has come into increasing prominence.”
… From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_with_the_Holy_Spirit

When the Holy Spirit comes UPON you, it’s like He envelopes, surrounds, overwhelms you
(see baptizo above).
It’s like you are immersed in the Holy Spirit. It's like He comes all over you.
Here are 2 passages describing it:

“… you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
… you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
and you shall be witnesses to Me … to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:5,8)

“… the Holy Spirit fell upon them (the Gentiles), as upon us (the Jews) at the beginning.
Then I remember the word of the Lord, how He said,
‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
… God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ”
(Acts 11:15-17)
This “gift” of Holy Spirit baptism is not salvation …
it is this special baptism (an anointing) after salvation.

The above is much different than when one is born-again at the moment of salvation
… when the Holy Spirit ENTERS you and remains INSIDE you:
“And I (Jesus) will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever -- the Spirit of truth
… you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)
The Holy Spirit is INSIDE born-again Christians ...
John 14:17, Romans 8:11, 1 Cor 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16.

I pray that you receive this as spiritual Truth, in Jesus' mighty name!
... for He desires that more of His children would be open to receiving this baptism.

 

[John Zain]

The beginning of the baptism with the Holy Spirit

John the Baptist said Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit
“He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” (Matthew 3:11).
The other gospels say the same (Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33).

Jesus instructed His disciples to wait for God's promise of spiritual power
”… Behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem
until you are endued with power from on high.” (Luke 24:49)

Luke gives more details about Jesus' instructions
“… He commanded them … to wait for the promise of the Father
… you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.
… you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you;
and you shall be witnesses to Me … to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:4-8)

Then, approximately 120 people received what was promised above
“When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty rushing wind, and it filled
the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues,
as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit
and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” (Acts 2:1-4)

The baptism with the Holy Spirit (accompanied by tongues) results in spiritual power!
When one receives this baptism, the Holy Spirit always comes upon people (7 references).
When one is born again, the Holy Spirit always comes inside people (also 7 references).

For further study
“the promise” of this baptism is also the “gift” in Acts 2:37-39, 10:44-48, 11:15-17.
Note: Acts 10:47-48 refers to receiving water baptism after receiving the Holy Spirit baptism.
Note: Acts 11:18 says since the Gentiles received this baptism, they must be saved.

Conclusion
How can people insist that this baptism is the born-again salvation experience?
This baptism is connected with tongues, and the spiritual “power”
is the 9 spiritual gifts of 1 Cor 12.

 

[John Zain]

It's beneficial to discuss one passage at a time ... here's one:

“… when they (Peter & John) had come down,
(they) prayed for them* that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
For as yet He (the Holy Spirit) had fallen upon none of them*.
They* had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Then they laid hands on them*, and they received the Holy Spirit.
And when Simon saw that through the laying on of hands the Holy Spirit was given,
he offered them money, saying, ‘Give me this power also,
that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.’ ”
(Acts 8:14-19) * the Samarians

 

[John Zain]

The baptism with the Holy Spirit …
WHY has it not been accepted over the years by the mainstream churches?

Note: God began to bring it back into prominence in the early 1900's
(and people say it's connected with Joel 2).
28 And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams,
your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

It is a special anointing for ministry (after salvation).
It is connected with the 9 gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12).
The NT church leaders (Eph 4:11) had this baptism and one or more gifts of the Spirit.

But, since then …
Some church leaders were ignorant that it is of God.
Some church leaders were not given this baptism, nor any of the 9 spiritual gifts,
and they were jealous of those who had any of this.

Church leaders are jealous, fearful, of those who are "more spiritual" than they are.
After all, church leaders are supposed to be the leaders, right?

They don't want to risk causing their precious followers to leave because of doctrine.
After all, their livelihood depends on their tithes.
The Lord is in the process of bringing down such ministries.

 

[John Zain]

The Holy Spirit has baptized us into one body (the church). Praise God!
But, Jesus baptizes some Christians with the Holy Spirit. Praise God!
Two different things entirely.

I have 7 verses saying the Holy Spirit is INSIDE believers.
I have 7 verses saying the Holy Spirit comes UPON believers receiving the HS baptism.
But, most Christians believe all 14 verses refer to salvation!

7 verses omit the INSIDE placement.
7 verses omit the UPON placement.

IMO, the precious and mighty Holy Spirit does NOT need to
come UPON people before venturing INSIDE them.

Or, perhaps I misjudge Him ... perhaps He's a tad shy, and prefers to go in sloooowly.
I asketh thou, does this make any sense to you?

P.S. Does anyone need verses for all of this?
P.S. Does anyone understand what I'm talking about?

 

[Pard]

Any chance you could post the 14 passages, divided by upon vs. inside? If you just post the references to them that's all I'd like, no need to go out of your way and actually post the scripture (unless you'd like too), as I can go read it myself.

I'm intrigued by the idea of UPON versus INSIDE, as I have never really noticed that before and it speaks to my current journey with Christ.

 

[John Zain]

The Holy Spirit takes up residence INSIDE the born-again believer:
John 14:16-23
Romans 8:11
1 Corinthians 3:16
Galatians 4:6
2 Timothy 1:14
1 John 3:24
1 John 4:12-16

The Holy Spirit falls UPON the believer who is receiving the baptism with the Holy Spirit:
Luke 24:49
Acts 1:4-8
Acts 2:1-4
Acts 8:14-19
Acts 10:44-48
Acts 11:15-17
Acts 19:5-6

 

[John Zain]

The Scripture PASSAGES below explain this baptism with the Holy Spirit.
And the important DETAILS in each passage are shown in the chart below.
Please notice how these details are so inter-connected (linked together) in the chart.
And realize that all the details of an event are seldom recorded every time the event occurs.

1 Luke 24:49 ------ 8 Acts 8:14-19
2 Acts 1:4-8 ------ 9 Acts 9:17-18
3 Acts 2:1-4 ----- 10 Romans 15:19
4 Acts 2:33-39 --- 11 Acts 10:44-48
5 Acts 4:8-16 ---- 12 Acts 11:15-17
6 Acts 4:31 ------ 13 Acts 14:3
7 Acts 5:12-16 ----14 Acts 19:5-6

------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
the Promise --------Y-Y---Y-------------------------
baptism with H.S. ----Y-------------Y--------Y-----Y
the gift -----------------Y---------------Y--Y------
upon ---------------Y Y Y---------Y-------Y--Y-----Y
laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y-----------Y--Y
filled with H.S. -------Y---Y-Y-----Y---------------
received H.S. --------------------Y-------Y---------
speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y
power --------------Y-Y-----------Y----Y------------
boldness -------------------Y-Y-----------------Y---
miracles -------------------Y---Y---Y--Y--------Y---

 

[Pard]

A note to key: Bold is the "IN/UPON" ref.. Underline is the gift of the Spirit that manifested in the ref.. Italic is anything else of note in the ref..
A second note: for purpose of both same word usage and ease of understanding the Darby translation has been used for all the following scriptures.

Scripture Ref. to the Spirit "INSIDE" a believer:

John 14:17:

"'the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see him nor know him; but ye know him, for he abides with you, and shall be in you.'"​

Romans 8:11:

"But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among [the] dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among [the] dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you."​

1 Corinthians 3:16:

"Do ye not know that ye are [the] temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?"​

Galatians 4:6:

"But because ye are sons, God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father"​

2 Timothy 1:14:

"Keep, by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us, the good deposit entrusted."​

1 John 3:24:

"And he that keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given to us."​

1 John 4:12-16:

"12 No one has seen God at any time: if we love one another, God abides in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13 Hereby we know that we abide in him and he in us, that he has given to us of his Spirit.

14 And *we* have seen, and testify, that the Father has sent the Son [as] Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

16 And *we* have known and have believed the love which God has to us. God is love, and he that abides in love abides in God, and God in him"​

That will do it for the given ref. to "INSIDE" or as the Darby Translation puts it "in him/us".

Scriptural ref. to the Spirit "UPON" a believer.

Luke 24:29:

"'And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but do ye remain in the city till ye be clothed with power from on high.'"​

Acts 1:5-8:

"'5 For John indeed baptised with water, but *ye* shall be baptised with the Holy Spirit after now not many days.

6 They therefore, being come together, asked him saying, Lord, is it at this time that thou restorest the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said to them, It is not yours to know times or seasons, which the Father has placed in his own authority;

8 but ye will receive power, the Holy Spirit having come upon you, and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.'"​

Acts 2:3-4:

"3 And there appeared to them parted tongues, as of fire, and it sat upon each one of them.

4 And they were all filled with [the] Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave to them to speak forth."​

Acts 8:14-19:

"14 And the apostles who were in Jerusalem, having heard that Samaria had received the word of God, sent to them Peter and John;

15 who, having come down, prayed for them that they might receive [the] Holy Spirit;

16 for he was not yet fallen upon any of them, only they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus.

17 Then they laid their hands upon them, and they received [the] Holy Spirit.

18 But Simon, having seen that by the laying on of the hands of the apostles the [Holy] Spirit was given, offered them money,

19 saying, Give to me also this power, in order that on whomsoever I may lay hands he may receive [the] Holy Spirit."​

Acts 10:44-46:

"44 While Peter was yet speaking these words the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were hearing the word.

45 And the faithful of the circumcision were astonished, as many as came with Peter, that upon the nations also the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out:

46 for they heard them speaking with tongues and magnifying God."​

Acts 11:15-17:

"'15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them even as upon us also at the beginning.

16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, John baptised with water, but *ye* shall be baptised with [the] Holy Spirit.

17 If then God has given them the same gift as also to us when we had believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who indeed was *I* to be able to forbid God?'"​

Acts 19:5,6:

"5 And when they heard that, they were baptised to the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And Paul having laid [his] hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied."​

And that ends the given ref. to the spirit coming "UPON".

 

[Pard]

Having done that brief, but enlightening little study, I can see that there is a difference. The Holy Spirit is INSIDE all believers who profess Christ with the lips, the heart, and the soul. This creates in the instant of its happening a new being who is in Christ, and has Christ in him (via the Holy Spirit). There are unique specialties that these new beings have that are unlike the abilities of the previous being. The full ref. to John 14:16-23 illustrates these new abilities, and they include seeing God, seeing Christ, and having God's presence in life (which one can easily and soundly extrapolate to meaning of having the ear of God, if you will). The greatest of new abilities is the ability to resist soulful death through the means of Christ's death and Resurrection.

The Holy Spirit is upon someone who already has it within them. This upon-nature is evident by powers of the Holy Spirit and are gifts, such as tongues, prophecy, and magnification of God.

It is unique and different than the nature of the Spirit being INSIDE of you. I wonder at the means by which it comes, as Simon (and he is rebuked in the next few lines of scripture after that which I quoted here) seems to think, and maybe rightly so as other scripture ref. also back up this idea, that we need another who has had this gift already to receive this gift ourselves. I do not know of the truth to this claim though.

 

[John Zain]

The Holy Spirit is upon someone who already has it within them. This upon-nature is evident by powers of the Holy Spirit and are gifts, such as tongues, prophecy, and magnification of God.

It is unique and different than the nature of the Spirit being INSIDE of you. I wonder at the means by which it comes, as Simon (and he is rebuked in the next few lines of scripture after that which I quoted here) seems to think, and maybe rightly so as other scripture ref. also back up this idea, that we need another who has had this gift already to receive this gift ourselves. I do not know of the truth to this claim though.

Christians who have been brainwashed with false teaching about this topic
(especially from birth) prefer to believe UPON means the same as INSIDE.

Such people are not open to this new spiritual truth entering into their lives.
Many reasons for this, as you can well imagine.

Just think, if these people were OPEN to this experience, Jesus might give it to them.
Just think, if these people were REALLY ASKING FOR IT, Jesus would give it to them.

This is a real-life example of the value of the "keep asking, seeking, and knocking"
of Matthew 7:7-11.
Last time I looked, 7 and 11 were the lucky numbers.
Go for it ... and good luck!

P.S. For those looking deeper into the verses, it appears to me that in those very early years
(no churches even yet), Peter was expecting the IN and UPON to happen simultaneously.

 

[Pard]

But is there some special nature to Its coming upon you? I mean, in the Bible ref. we see that hands were laid on these receivers by those who had the Spirit already. And just the same I hear of people today who receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit having it come upon them by way of people who already have it putting hands upon them and praying for it.

I ask as I'd very much like this, as I am in deed in need of this Spirit upon me, for I have a great need for increasing faith and a desire to be rid of the doubt which plagues me, that I may glorify God without the hindering of questions and that I may fight off the demons' whispers with the truth. Already I have some ammunition and I know it has helped me around with doubt, and surly the Spirit coming UPON me would be a great sword with which to slay doubt and to secure faith.

 

[John Zain]

But is there some special nature to Its coming upon you? I mean, in the Bible ref. we see that hands were laid on these receivers by those who had the Spirit already. And just the same I hear of people today who receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit having it come upon them by way of people who already have it putting hands upon them and praying for it.

I ask as I'd very much like this, as I am in deed in need of this Spirit upon me, for I have a great need for increasing faith and a desire to be rid of the doubt which plagues me, that I may glorify God without the hindering of questions and that I may fight off the demons' whispers with the truth. Already I have some ammunition and I know it has helped me around with doubt, and surly the Spirit coming UPON me would be a great sword with which to slay doubt and to secure faith.

IMO, the laying on of hands is not necessary (that would be like putting God in a box).
IMO, a demon is trying to destroy your faith (see the 4 soils parable).
And please see my new thread about demons giving Christians a hard time.

 

[Pard]

Oh how I know! But truth, isn't a demon, the king of all demons, trying his very hardest to destroy our lives? But it'll be something we can and will survive because John 17:9 makes clear that Christ is praying for us at this moment! How can I lose when I have my savior praying for me? I don't mean that in a way of saying that I can do as I wish and I am clear of all sin, I mean that as a means of finding great strength and knowing that I can withstand all the traps and snares because of my love for Christ which I have because He loved me first.

I'll be sure to look at your new thread. I am very much aware of the demons that whisper at my ear. And like Christian in Pilgrim's Progress I at first found it hard to even tell their voice from my own in my head, but I am working at it now and it is coming to pass that I will know the voices. I am beginning to know the voice of my Savior and I have already used His words to refute the doubts cast by the demons. It is a great joy that I am even now doing this!

 

[John Zain]

Oh how I know! But truth, isn't a demon, the king of all demons, trying his very hardest to destroy our lives? But it'll be something we can and will survive because John 17:9 makes clear that Christ is praying for us at this moment! How can I lose when I have my savior praying for me? I don't mean that in a way of saying that I can do as I wish and I am clear of all sin, I mean that as a means of finding great strength and knowing that I can withstand all the traps and snares because of my love for Christ which I have because He loved me first.

I'll be sure to look at your new thread. I am very much aware of the demons that whisper at my ear. And like Christian in Pilgrim's Progress I at first found it hard to even tell their voice from my own in my head, but I am working at it now and it is coming to pass that I will know the voices. I am beginning to know the voice of my Savior and I have already used His words to refute the doubts cast by the demons. It is a great joy that I am even now doing this!

I am so proud of you ... keep up the good work!
Re: the blue ... does this mean that you believe in election, as opposed to a free-will choice
(I do).
However, IMO, one needs to co-operate with the Holy Spirit in the sanctification process.
But, then, what do we do with Romans 8:28-30?

 

[Pard]

Election, like Calvinism? I don't know what I believe in terms, as I am not very sure what the terms means since I cannot find them in the Bible.

What I can tell you, in terms, is that I am a pentecostal who has slightly-less-than-conservative views (in mostly the exact nature of the Spirit's workings, ie I'm pretty sure salvation is apart from tongues [more conservative brothers viewing it as a needed part to salvation] and I am also leaning towards the idea that tongues isn't even a needed manifestation in the Spirit being UPON, though this is but a baby of an idea that I need to expand on with some study) who leans away from Arminianism and towards Calvinism.

Beyond that I am clueless and even in that I am partially clueless. I'm taking this whole christian thing in all over again, realizing, slowly, that at least my first year as a "christian" was a big old lie, or at least the doings of a new born baby trying to run when he couldn't even crawl! Confusion is a good word for my current state of mind beyond the knowledge of my own salvation, through a God-given confirmation, which came after I prayed for it to be confirmed so that I may be certain about at least the most important thing!

 

[John Zain]

Election, like Calvinism? I don't know what I believe in terms,
as I am not very sure what the terms means since I cannot find them in the Bible.

What I can tell you, in terms, is that I am a pentecostal who has slightly-less-than-conservative views (in mostly the exact nature of the Spirit's workings, ie I'm pretty sure salvation is apart from tongues [more conservative brothers viewing it as a needed part to salvation] and I am also leaning towards the idea that tongues isn't even a needed manifestation in the Spirit being UPON, though this is but a baby of an idea that I need to expand on with some study) who leans away from Arminianism and towards Calvinism.

Beyond that I am clueless and even in that I am partially clueless. I'm taking this whole christian thing in all over again, realizing, slowly, that at least my first year as a "christian" was a big old lie, or at least the doings of a new born baby trying to run when he couldn't even crawl! Confusion is a good word for my current state of mind beyond the knowledge of my own salvation, through a God-given confirmation, which came after I prayed for it to be confirmed so that I may be certain about at least the most important thing!

There are several verses about the "elect" and "election".

Calvinism basically is the belief that man is totally unnable to choose God on his own,
and that God elects people to salvation.

Arminianism is the belief that man is able to choose with his own free will, and does.

Heads up! ...
The ones who are the most desperate for spiritual help are the most likely ones to receive it.
The ones who keep asking, seeking, knocking are the ones who receive what they desire,
as long as it is within God's will.

 

[Pard]

There are several verses about the "elect" and "election".

Calvinism basically is the belief that man is totally unnable to choose God on his own,
and that God elects people to salvation.

Arminianism is the belief that man is able to choose with his own free will, and does.

Heads up! ...
The ones who are the most desperate for spiritual help are the most likely ones to receive it.
The ones who keep asking, seeking, knocking are the ones who receive what they desire,
as long as it is within God's will.

Yeah, I don't like Arminianism, and luckily my church never talks about such things. It seems to me that Arminianism is a total 180 from the Bible because the entire Bible is about God, how awesome He is, how He controls everything and how little control we have. By stating that man can decide whether or not he goes to heaven, well that's just a little too far from the Bible for my liking.

And truth! I know! I have had it laid upon my heart over the last week that I need to keep on praying for the same things. I get into this habit of each day praying for the things that come to my mind at that time and I forget the pray of the day before, and the day before that. Well I figure adding stuff is good, it gets it up to God, and now I am praying for the things plus the things that I desire the very most, which are very simple and very few:

Love. I desire to grow in love for God. At the end of the day I don't love Him near enough, I love Him less than most any other Christian and yet He is so good to me still! How can I not desire to love Him more? But I tried, and I am now realizing that even love for Him is pre-dependent on Him giving it to me! Kind of reminds me of a baby getting food. You don't go right from liquid food to solid food, you slowly work them onto the solid food, and God is slowly working me deeper into love with Him. If He just put me fully into love wit Him from the git-go I'd have exploded!!! (probably...)

Faith. I need faith, Lord how I need faith! I doubt so much! But I am getting better, little by little, because the Lord is giving me the faith I need. My faith is again, pre-dependent on God's giving it to me. God elects me. I get the gift of faith. Through faith I come to Christ. Through Christ I get the Spirit within me. And through the Spirit I grow deeper in faith. This prayer is attached to the desire for the Spirit to come upon me and grant me powers, that I may find even great faith and that I may glorify Him and witness to Him.

Relationship. This is really like an attachment to the other two. I wish to have a conversational relationship with my Lord and Savior. I want to not just walk by His side, but have a good talk every day. Don't get me wrong, walking is fine! But talking makes time go by quicker, and I don't care what people say about this being a short life that we live, it's still too long to be quiet the whole time!

That's about it, well and continued support and strength that I may continue to face the devil and cut down his temptations, especially those that would lead me back down the path from where I came. The City of Destruction is an awful place and I don't want to ever go back there, especially now that I have had a taste of His country!

 

[John Zain]

Super post, Pard, and don't forget to make use of that thread about controlling demons!