A Different God?

[Sinthesis]

I'm a very legalistic person in both Biblical terms and human laws. If you break the law you are subject to the penalties thereof. The penalty for sin is death. God has every right to demand justice for the injustice done against Him and if He asks His people to exact this justice than so it shall be. I have never had a problem rationalizing this issue. It makes you really take every moment as a gift because truly He could strike any of us sinners down at any moment and He'd be right in doing so.

God gave the world Jesus as a means to escape this. Jesus is (in modern legal terms) AR (Accelerated Rehabilitation). You accept Jesus and you can forgo the penalties for breaking that law because you accepted God's love. Or you can be that guy in every courtroom who thinks he can plead his case before the jury and that guy gets shafted with maximum sentencing.

Good post that pretty much answers your first post.

 

[Pard]

God is not different in the Old Testament. It's just that the Old Testament was under the administration of angels, even corrupted angels. It was not under God's administration.

 

[stovebolts]

Pard,
Depending on the translation, it could be Kill or Murder.

KJV and ASV: 13Thou shalt not kill.

I'm not getting hung up on that, and I hope you don't either. We can get where we want to go a different route as well.

Just before I dive into this I'd like to state my answer from a current frame of mind. He does this because they have broken the Law.

I agree, but for a different reason. They are called the Noahide laws and there were 7 of them and every person was / is under them.

Well I'm not entirely sure but I'd have to say this was because they were often very negative towards God's ability.

We don't have to guess. The text tells us ;)

Genesis 15 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”

We're talking culture here Pard. An athiest or non-religious person won't listen to the bible, but they will understand culture.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Amorites
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Marduk
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Baal
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Moloch

Abram went to Egypt before because of famine which shows that he didn't have much faith in God's ability to provide. Instead of raising 4 generations of Hebrews in this same environment God decided that it'd be better if they knew strife so that they could better appreciate and rely upon God.

Though I agree about Abram, I don't agree with the rest because that's not what the bible says ;)

After reading the web pages I just posted, tell me what crime was committed that justified killing every man, woman and child.

 

[Pard]

So basically God was making them bide their time in Egypt until the point would come when it would be right for them to go and fight the Amorites? And they would fight them because they were idol worshipers? And everyone would be killed because idol-worship was something they all did?

 

[Pard]

Depending on the translation, it could be Kill or Murder.

KJV and ASV: 13Thou shalt not kill.

I'm not getting hung up on that, and I hope you don't either. We can get where we want to go a different route as well.

I don't think it needs to go further than this but I do feel that I ought to make this point.

The word used in the Ten Commandments is "ratsakh" which means "to murder". Had it said "Though shalt not mut" than it would mean "kill". This doesn't sound important but it is! If you allow this difference to carry on think of the implications it makes against God! You let that slip and all of a sudden that perfect God of ours seems to be breaking His own law and telling His people to break His own law!

 

[Jam]

I don't think it needs to go further than this but I do feel that I ought to make this point.

The word used in the Ten Commandments is "ratsakh" which means "to murder". Had it said "Though shalt not mut" than it would mean "kill". This doesn't sound important but it is! If you allow this difference to carry on think of the implications it makes against God! You let that slip and all of a sudden that perfect God of ours seems to be breaking His own law and telling His people to break His own law!

What is the exact difference between ratsakh and mut in Hebrew? It's all very well saying that one means murder and one means kill, but the definition of murder in our language is a pretty vague one! What did God mean when He prohibited ratsakh? He cannot have simply meant "unlawful killing", as that would render the commandment a bit of a non-statement: 'the Law states that you must not kill if it is against the law'. It doesn't specify what constitutes unlawful killing, and would be fundamentally flawed as a law!

 

[Pard]

What is the exact difference between ratsakh and mut in Hebrew? It's all very well saying that one means murder and one means kill, but the definition of murder in our language is a pretty vague one! What did God mean when He prohibited ratsakh? He cannot have simply meant "unlawful killing", as that would render the commandment a bit of a non-statement: 'the Law states that you must not kill if it is against the law'. It doesn't specify what constitutes unlawful killing, and would be fundamentally flawed as a law!

H7523 — Strongרָצַח
râtsach
raw-tsakh'
A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).

(Excuse the difference in format but I got them from two different places... both are Strong's though)

4191 muwth mooth a primitive root: to die (literally or figuratively); causatively, to kill:--X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy(-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro(-mancer), X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in (no) wise.

And what does murder mean? Well despite what you say the definition of "murder" isn't vague it's actually specific. People kill other humans every day and yet do not commit murder.

The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse.

*I wrote that from memory

Some jurisdictions also add to that it must be "premeditated" (pre-planned) however most jurisdictions tack that adjective on as an addition tot he act of murder and not a requirement for its fulfillment.

And the Bible adds to this definition that it is murder when one hates his brother (1 John 3:15).

 

[jasoncran]

Pard,
Depending on the translation, it could be Kill or Murder.

KJV and ASV: 13Thou shalt not kill.

I'm not getting hung up on that, and I hope you don't either. We can get where we want to go a different route as well.


I agree, but for a different reason. They are called the Noahide laws and there were 7 of them and every person was / is under them.



We don't have to guess. The text tells us ;)

Genesis 15 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.â€

We're talking culture here Pard. An athiest or non-religious person won't listen to the bible, but they will understand culture.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Amorites
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Marduk
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Baal
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Moloch





Though I agree about Abram, I don't agree with the rest because that's not what the bible says ;)

After reading the web pages I just posted, tell me what crime was committed that justified killing every man, woman and child.

simply put worshipping of false gods. sexual perversion and also murder of the kids by passing them through the fire.


by rote memory that is.

 

[childeye]

Okay, at least I got someone on this thread to scratch their head. The vineyard of God was run by wicked servants who killed the prophets God sent, and finally His son whose death was their undoing. If you are not aware that angels ran the Old Testament then you may not be ready to discuss this topic. This is deep stuff, at least to me.

Ephesians 6:12King James Version (KJV)


12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Hebrews 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)



14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Colossians 2:14-16

King James Version (KJV)



14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Revelation 12:4

King James Version (KJV)


4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

2 Corinthians 4:4

King James Version (KJV)


4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Pard]

Let's just pretend (for humor's sake) that I didn't make head or tail of what you're trying to say. I actually get it but I just want to pretend for a moment... ;)

 

[Jam]

And what does murder mean? Well despite what you say the definition of "murder" isn't vague it's actually specific. People kill other humans every day and yet do not commit murder.

It isn't specific in practice, though! Calling murder "unlawful killing" is very vague indeed, for there are many different jurisdictions throughout the land and they all disagree over what constitutes "unlawful" killing!

Again, a law saying "don't kill unlawfully" means nothing at all if it does not specify the circumstances in which killing would be considered unlawful or what constitutes "justification" or "excuse".

 

[stovebolts]

simply put worshipping of false gods. sexual perversion and also murder of the kids by passing them through the fire.


by rote memory that is.

Glad to know somebody is tracking!

Other scholars have claimed that Moloch is merely another name for Ba'al, the Sacred Bull who was widely worshipped in the ancient Near East. Ba'al is also frequently mentioned in the Old Testament, sometimes even in proximity to Moloch. Jeremiah 32.35, for instance, refers to rituals dedicated to Ba'al in the Hinnom Valley, with the offering of child sacrifices to Moloch. Allusions made to Moloch in the context of the Canaanite fertility cult, which was headed by Ba'al, also suggest a close relationship between the two figures. Further, the Bible commonly makes reference to burnt offerings being given to Ba’al himself. While these examples could be interpreted to suggest that Moloch and Ba’al are the same god, they more likely refer to the acknowledgement of their close relationship. Again, given the fact that a distinct name is used in the context of sacrifice suggests that Moloch can only be related to Ba'al (perhaps in the faculty of a henotheistic underling) rather than equated with him.

any one know anything about the Hinnom Valley?...

Oh, and hopefully we'll never look at Solomon quiet the same... 1Kings 11 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.

Actually contrast 1 kings 9-11 with Deut 17 and zing, straight to end time theology lol! But lets not go there .

 

[Pard]

It isn't specific in practice, though! Calling murder "unlawful killing" is very vague indeed, for there are many different jurisdictions throughout the land and they all disagree over what constitutes "unlawful" killing!

Again, a law saying "don't kill unlawfully" means nothing at all if it does not specify the circumstances in which killing would be considered unlawful or what constitutes "justification" or "excuse".

And that's why the real definition of murder is probably 20 pages long... I did you a favor in giving you the very direct version but if you'd like the long version then you can go find it pretty easy. It includes that isn't murder.

But honestly I think you are just trying to be difficult here. And I highly doubt God is going to sit in His chair of judgement and fidget over the difference between murder and man slaughter. You know what murder is and it is the same thing that I know it to be. And you and I both know what unlawful killing means.

So I am going to stop entertaining you because you'll just keep up with the same retort...

 

[stovebolts]

So basically God was making them bide their time in Egypt until the point would come when it would be right for them to go and fight the Amorites? And they would fight them because they were idol worshipers? And everyone would be killed because idol-worship was something they all did?

Pard,

The purpose of Israel was to become a great nation and as a great nation, they were to be a light to the nations.

Deut 4:5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.â€

They were around 70 when they entered into Egypt and they were millions when they left. Actually, until the Pharaoh who didn't know of Joseph came around which was probably right around the time of the Hyskos, they had it pretty good in Egypt. Had the best land etc and if you recall, they didn't leave Egypt, they were driven out of Egypt. So you see, Egypt protected the Isrealites until they became a great nation. In short, and for a lack of a better word, we can look at the 400 years as an incubation period.

Here is the deal though Pard. That "idol" worship wasn't just bowing down to sticks and stones. It was burning their children as part of their sacrificial ritual because the gods they served were angry gods and humans were created as a byproduct from Tiamate (depicted as a serpent) and were despised.

As far as murder and killing, the Jews translate that verse as murder. Your case is good, but it doesn't work when an Athiest depicts YHVH as a murderer when he commands Israel to kill. And as we're learning, most don't understand why YHVH commanded them to kill, which to somebody who doesn't understand the culture, looks at it as murder.

 

[jasoncran]

Glad to know somebody is tracking!



any one know anything about the Hinnom Valley?...

Oh, and hopefully we'll never look at Solomon quiet the same... 1Kings 11 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molek the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.

Actually contrast 1 kings 9-11 with Deut 17 and zing, straight to end time theology lol! But lets not go there .

himmon valley, jezreal and har meggiddo. interesting.

 

[Jam]

But honestly I think you are just trying to be difficult here. And I highly doubt God is going to sit in His chair of judgement and fidget over the difference between murder and man slaughter. You know what murder is and it is the same thing that I know it to be. And you and I both know what unlawful killing means.

I can assure you; I'm not just "trying to be difficult". My issue is that a commandment "do not kill unlawfully" cannot mean anything when it stands alone; only when it is coupled with an explanation of what is meant by "unlawfully" can it mean something sensical. God provides no such explanation until chapter 21 of Exodus, and I was under the impression that the Ten Commandments were intended to be able to stand independently of the other commandments. It is for this reason that I think that saying that the commandment just means "do not murder" is a far too simplistic answer.

 

[stovebolts]

himmon valley, jezreal and har meggiddo. interesting.

Sounds kinda like hell to me... Solomon reinforced it too, and I mean that in both ways.

 

[glorydaz]

I can assure you; I'm not just "trying to be difficult". My issue is that a commandment "do not kill unlawfully" cannot mean anything when it stands alone; only when it is coupled with an explanation of what is meant by "unlawfully" can it mean something sensical. God provides no such explanation until chapter 21 of Exodus, and I was under the impression that the Ten Commandments were intended to be able to stand independently of the other commandments. It is for this reason that I think that saying that the commandment just means "do not murder" is a far too simplistic answer.

The Ten Commandments were not intended to stand indepenently.
They were given to the Jews based on God's Moral Law. (Notice the Sabbath was included.)

The specific rules concerning these commandments are detailed in other portions.

1And God spake all these words, saying,

2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13Thou shalt not kill.

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15Thou shalt not steal.

16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Jesus is the Sabbath rest. When He came, He spoke more fullness into the Moral Law of God by teaching that to be angry with one's brother was murder, and to even look at a woman with lust was adultery. Thus all the Commandments are summed up in the Royal Law to love God and your neighbor as yourself.

 

[jasoncran]

jeff you should post what the sages were arguing in jesus day so that the proper exegesis could be seen.

jesus corrected them on the law, he didnt add to or expound on that.

if you noticed that moses said circumise the foreskin of your heart. and jeremiah.the psalmist and host of others in the tanakh spoke of mans evil heart.

 

[stovebolts]

jeff you should post what the sages were arguing in jesus day so that the proper exegesis could be seen.

Jason,
I think it would only derail the thread... but I can say this. Our modern view of Hell isn't the same view that the 1st century church held but rather sounds more like Norse mythology. With that, and this is extremely abbreviated, but the sages believed that a good Rabbi, when he died was able to pass through Gehenna and take souls with him. I can only speculate that this view may have been formed by the innocent bloodshed that occurred there (himmon valley, jezreal and har meggiddo). Because isn't that what hell is like?


I Peter 3:18 & 19 tell us “...being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by His Spirit: By which also He went and preached unto the SPIRITS IN PRISON...”. Also Ephesians 4:9, “...He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?”.

Acts 2:31 quotes David from Psalm 16:10 saying “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in HELL, neither His flesh did see corruption.”

Luke 23:42, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise”.