A Important Marriage Question Curious To What You Think

[Lewis]

I just want to see what you guy's have to say about this. When you get divorced before you become Saved. And get married again is that honorable ? Jesus did not condemn the woman at the well. Some theologians teach that, God will not honor this marriage, and I do know what the Bible says about this. But I think that Biblical divorce equals a Biblical remarriage. Now Moses allowed it because of the hardness of some men's hearts. Now in the case of men beating on their wives and just plain treating them cruel. They should not have to stay married to such a man, and God is not a cruel God, to where he would want that person to stay unmarried for the rest of their life and not be happy, and have human companionship. So if she remarries is she committing adultery because she is still married to the first man ? If your heart is no longer with this person, you just plain do not love them anymore, should you stay unmarried after you leave them ? I know what the criteria is in the Bible for a divorce, but there are situations that are specific and the Bible does not expound on. Beating your wife up, the Bible says God does not like it Malachi 2:14-16. Now I am in my second marriage of 7 years, the first one in 1978 I messed up badly, it was not her it was me, and I also was not saved, I cheated on her to the max. I am just using myself as an example, for one part of this post of questions. And when you cheat you actually marry every time you have sex, because sex is for marriage, the only sin that is actually against your own body. But anyway back to the main subject, do some of you look down on a Christian who has been married more than once ? Do you think that their marriage is not honorable ? I myself feel secure in my marriage as being honorable under God. Yes marriage is a contract with God and your spouse.And because we are humans, things don't always work out. And remember Jesus did not condemn the woman at the well, and He told her she had 5 husbands because she was having sex with 5. And I saw some of the comments about a pastor remarrying in one thread here, they are still human too. I think if a marriage is fixable, fix it. But in some cases they are not with certain people. So what are these people to do ?

 

[Rick W]

Those under the law are judged by the law.
What I mean is a secular marriage doesn't recognize biblical doctrine. Nor does a secular marriage proclaim Christ at the forefront. But then, rejecting Christ has it's own condenmation doesn't it?
As for the professing christian well, I think it goes without saying that Christ is first in any relationship and the commitment made at the altar requires the same faithfulness to each other in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer until death do us part.
Yes, divorce is wrong but the world these days doesn't see it that way as the many excuses to rid oneself of a spouse who no longer instills interest testifies. But then, faithfulness and a lifetime commitment aren't at the forefront with Christ either.

 

[Scott]

And when you cheat you actually marry every time you have sex

I disagree. Marriage is a covenant before God. Sex does not represent marriage, it is only a benefit of marriage. Sex outside of marriage is adultery. God does not recognize adultery as marriage, but as sin. Why?? Sex does not represent the marriage covenant.

 

[Rick W]

The way I saw that quote is with the union becoming one which is a reflection of our union with Christ.

I do see your point though Scott. ;)

 

[Lewis]

And when you cheat you actually marry every time you have sex

I disagree. Marriage is a covenant before God. Sex does not represent marriage, it is only a benefit of marriage. Sex outside of marriage is adultery. God does not recognize adultery as marriage, but as sin. Why?? Sex does not represent the marriage covenant.

Yes you do marry them, and I will prove it later, right now I have to go to work.

 

[Scott]

Yes you do marry them

Adultery is in fact anti-marriage. Adultery is the defamation and defilement of the covenant of marriage. It is not polygamy.

 

[Lewis]

Sex is the ultimate climatical union between a man and women, it is a gift from God, for procreation, and pleasure, it was designed for marriage only. Unless someone is raped, when you commit adultery, you make conscious choice to have a union sexually with that person, that was only made for the married covenant with God, Therefore commiting this act is a Biblical illegal marriage, because of the intimate union that you two have done. I am trying to explain it like I heard Dr.Tony Evans of Dallas Texas explain it, I am not doing the great job that he did explaining it, but I tried. He did a great job and backed it up.
It is not on his site at this time, but here is his site anyway, great sermons on this site.
http://www.tonyevans.org/

 

[Scott]

I still disagree with the premise that sex represents marriage. I do agree with you that sex is a gift (a benefit) exclusively in marriage for procreation and pleasure.

Consider John 4:16-18. The Samaritan woman had been divorced 5 times and was at the time just living with the current man. Think about this, if each of the 5 men she divorced were at one time considered her husband, why is not the 6th man considered her husband as well?

 

[Solo]

I understand marriage to be when a man and a woman cleave together and form one flesh. Sex is the physical display of a spiritual oneness. The ceremony, license, cultural traditions, etc. are all trimmings and vary according to the various cultures, but when a man and a woman cleave together to form one flesh they are married.

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? 4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. Matthew 19:3-9

 

[Lewis]

Solo my brother thank you.

 

[Solo]

Solo my brother thank you.

Lewis my brother, you are welcome to my understanding of God's Word anytime. I have spent many a thoughtful moment contemplating marriage and the oneness of a husband and wife, not only for my wife and my marriage, but in raising my five sons. :wink:

 

[Scott]

Thats great that you both have found comfort in similar thinking but neither one of you have thought this out thoroughly from a Biblical perspective. Neither of you answered the questions I've raised from John 4.

The Samaritan woman had been married to 5 and presumably had sexual relations with all 6 men she was involved with. Her current man was not a husband and Jesus recognized her answer of having "no husbands" as correct. Yet you say sex represents marriage to another despite the fact that the Bible never does say that.

Furthermore, you are both essentially saying that paraplegics and quadraplegics cannot be married. Does the name Joni Eareckson Tada sound familiar? Is she not married?

Most importantly how then were Joseph and Mary married in Matthew 1 when they did not have sex until after Jesus was born, if marriage is signified by sex as you say?

I'll simplify for you, marriage is taking a vow before God and man. A vow represents the covenant, not sex. A promise is what represents marriage. It doesn't matter how elaborate or how simple, a promise is a promise. As Jesus says in Matthew 5:37, let your yes be yes and your no be no.

I do not believe in annuls, which is certainly something your position leaves room for considering you believe marriage to be signified by sex. An annul is a broken promise, no different than a divorce.

 

[Lewis]

I don't think she had five ceremonies, she was having sexual relations with five.No way could the common folk back then have five weddings unless, you went miles and miles away each time where people did not know you. They would have stoned you to death for sure. But this woman was apparently sneaking around. And in the omniscience of Jesus He knew it.

 

[Solo]

Thats great that you both have found comfort in similar thinking but neither one of you have thought this out thoroughly from a Biblical perspective. Neither of you answered the questions I've raised from John 4.

The Samaritan woman had been married to 5 and presumably had sexual relations with all 6 men she was involved with. Her current man was not a husband and Jesus recognized her answer of having "no husbands" as correct. Yet you say sex represents marriage to another despite the fact that the Bible never does say that.

Furthermore, you are both essentially saying that paraplegics and quadraplegics cannot be married. Does the name Joni Eareckson Tada sound familiar? Is she not married?

Most importantly how then were Joseph and Mary married in Matthew 1 when they did not have sex until after Jesus was born, if marriage is signified by sex as you say?

I'll simplify for you, marriage is taking a vow before God and man. A vow represents the covenant, not sex. A promise is what represents marriage. It doesn't matter how elaborate or how simple, a promise is a promise. As Jesus says in Matthew 5:37, let your yes be yes and your no be no.

I do not believe in annuls, which is certainly something your position leaves room for considering you believe marriage to be signified by sex. An annul is a broken promise, no different than a divorce.

Scott,
You make some very good points. At which point did Joseph and Mary become one flesh as Jesus mentioned in Matthew 19? Also, what is meant by the term "consummated"? What is it that designates that a man and wife go from being single to being married? The State License, the Church Approval, the Synagog Ceremony, Words between man and woman before God designating commitment, or ....?

 

[Scott]

I don't think she had five ceremonies, she was having sexual relations with five.

Then why didn't Jesus say 6 husbands instead of 5? (John 4)

The words Jesus' uses aren't mistakable. He acknowledges she has no current husband but has had 5 husbands in the past. He then went on to say she is not married to man she was currently with.

They would have stoned you to death for sure.

Apparently that was not the case. The Pharisee in Matthew 19:3 and Matthew 19:7 reveals a bit more understanding about how divorce was viewed by most people in those days. Jesus addresses that common thought in Matthew 19 and also in Matthew 5:31. In that verse He addresses common thought about divorce and reveals what is the only acceptable cause for divorce. Also, the Disciples in Matthew 19:10 don't give the impression of familiarity with clear perspective Jesus gave regarding marriage and divorce. They seem to be responding to a teaching that seemed different from what they were accustomed.

 

[Scott]

At which point did Joseph and Mary become one flesh as Jesus mentioned in Matthew 19?

In Matthew 19, Jesus reveals the intimacy and oneness sex creates in a marriage. Sex is a part of the majority of marriages and that is what Jesus is speaking about. That union is not easily broken without consequence. In context He is answering a question about whether divorce is acceptable for any reason. Jesus is telling us why a marriage cannot so easily be ripped apart.

But to answer when Mary became Josephs wife is found in Matthew 1:24 which happens before Matthew 1:25. I will say (and I believe 24 & 25 makes this distinction) that sex takes the bond of marriage to a higher level of intimacy ( or oneness as the Bible says) than it would be without. But with that being said, sex is still not where marriage begins. Its also revealed in Matthew 1:19 as Joseph intended to divorce her quietly, hence they were already married.

Also, what is meant by the term "consummated"?

I've heard it said most often as consummate the marriage. Seal the deal so to speak. Consummation is the line most often used by people to seperate between an annul and a divorce. To me there is no difference.

A few questions I'd like to ask,

Can a paraplegics or quadraplegics prior to marriage actually be married?
Do you believe in annulling a marriage?
Is it possible for a future husband and wife to have pre-marital sex with each other?

 

[Solo]

At which point did Joseph and Mary become one flesh as Jesus mentioned in Matthew 19?

In Matthew 19, Jesus reveals the intimacy and oneness sex creates in a marriage. Sex is a part of the majority of marriages and that is what Jesus is speaking about. That union is not easily broken without consequence. In context He is answering a question about whether divorce is acceptable for any reason. Jesus is telling us why a marriage cannot so easily be ripped apart.

But to answer when Mary became Josephs wife is found in Matthew 1:24 which happens before Matthew 1:25. I will say (and I believe 24 & 25 makes this distinction) that sex takes the bond of marriage to a higher level of intimacy ( or oneness as the Bible says) than it would be without. But with that being said, sex is still not where marriage begins. Its also revealed in Matthew 1:19 as Joseph intended to divorce her quietly, hence they were already married.

[quote:8b640]Also, what is meant by the term "consummated"?

I've heard it said most often as consummate the marriage. Seal the deal so to speak. Consummation is the line most often used by people to seperate between an annul and a divorce. To me there is no difference.

A few questions I'd like to ask,

Can a paraplegics or quadraplegics prior to marriage actually be married?
Do you believe in annulling a marriage?
Is it possible for a future husband and wife to have pre-marital sex with each other?[/quote:8b640]
Scott,
Please answer this question as well, and then I will reply in full.
Thanks.

What is it that designates that a man and wife go from being single to being married? The State License, the Church Approval, the Synagog Ceremony, Words between man and woman before God designating commitment, or ....?

 

[Scott]

Scott,
Please answer this question as well, and then I will reply in full.
Thanks.

No problem, even though I've been asking unanswered questions for about 3 posts now.

What is it that designates that a man and wife go from being single to being married? The State License, the Church Approval, the Synagog Ceremony, Words between man and woman before God designating commitment, or ....?

In different words, marriage is designated by the vow between a man and a woman before God and man (witness(es)). It is not sex but the promise.

Notice how Jesus confirms this by one word. As Matthew 19:5 says in the KJV....
"And said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?"

Notice Jesus doesn't say cleave to the woman, nor pledged wife, nor fiance, nor girlfriend. The passage says to his wife. She is already identified as wife.

 

[Solo]

Scott,
Please answer this question as well, and then I will reply in full.
Thanks.

No problem, even though I've been asking unanswered questions for about 3 posts now.

[quote:5066b]What is it that designates that a man and wife go from being single to being married? The State License, the Church Approval, the Synagog Ceremony, Words between man and woman before God designating commitment, or ....?

In different words, marriage is designated by the vow between a man and a woman before God and man (witness(es)). It is not sex but the promise.

Notice how Jesus confirms this by one word. As Matthew 19:5 says in the KJV....
"And said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?"

Notice Jesus doesn't say cleave to the woman, nor pledged wife, nor fiance, nor girlfriend. The passage says to his wife. She is already identified as wife.[/quote:5066b]
Scott,
You have made a very good argument stating your case, and it is exceptionally well put with the scriptures that you used. I especially liked the way that you stood your ground and showed in the scripture that I used to show the man will cleave to his wife, and the twain will become one flesh. I tend to agree with your position with the addition that the two will be one flesh as being the consummation of the marriage. Sexual intercourse is not intended to occur outside of marriage because it is the flesh of two becoming one in the physical inside of the marriage relationship. I tell my sons that if they are going to have sex prior to marriage, that they are joining themselves into one flesh with another in such a way that a man and woman are to join each other in marriage.

16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 1 Corinthians 6:16

Thanks for the debate.
Nice job.
Michael

 

[Lewis]

16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 1 Corinthians 6:16

And thank you brother Solo, I had forgot about that scripture.