A Load Of Garbage

[Milk-Drops]

Some atheists will definitely use the study as something to boast and rag on Christians about, but other than that I do see it as just a study. It matches with scripture, too, if you think about it. Anything that enables you to make it on your own, intelligence, wealth, etc, makes you more likely to think "I don't need God". It does make you more likely to question God, too.
I can actually understand the thinking behind atheism, I think. In the end it wasn't evidence that kept me from leaving Christianity (although I do believe evidence is there), it was God revealing Himself to me. God doesn't want us to lean on our understanding, He wants us to come to Him in need, we need to be in a position where we need Him. For me, that position was a crisis of faith.

This is pretty much how I feel. Its just a study. I think the study uses IQ in place of education as Aardvark mentioned. I've met stupid and intelligent people from all walks of life. I will say that those more educated in the sciences are less likely to believe in any religious doctrine. However as Questdriven mentioned there are other reasons to believe. I'm an agnostic atheist for the reason that I don't believe in any specific deity, but I open myself up to the possibility of one existing and understand I don't know everything. I don't think there is any real reason to get mad at the study.

 

[WIP]

Another thought occurred to me. What is the basis for determining IQ? Is it based on Godly criteria or worldly criteria? The basis for measurement certainly slants the outcome.

What would be Godly criteria for determining IQ?

Couple ideas come to mind.
What God expects from us. Does God expect us to have a certain level of intelligence and if so, what is the basis to be compared to? God is so far superior to any of us we the differences between us is insignificant to non-existent.

Here's an example. Suppose my job pays me $5.00 per day and your job pays you $5,000.00 per day. Now if it costs $5.00 per day for food to stay alive, you are far more wealthy than I am and much more capable of feeding yourself. On the other hand, it it costs $5,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.00 per day to feed ourselves, is either one of us really any better off?

 

[Claudya]

Couple ideas come to mind.
What God expects from us. Does God expect us to have a certain level of intelligence and if so, what is the basis to be compared to? God is so far superior to any of us we the differences between us is insignificant to non-existent.

God of course doesn't expect us to be super intelligent in order to gain His love; and I suppose we really can't compare our wits to His superior mind.
So from His perspective we're all pretty dumb.
But with that premise we couldn't really calculate correlations between intelligence and other traits (like religion). So if you don't want to forgoe the concept of intelligence alltogether in research (let alone forgoe reearch alltogether) there is no other way but to compare humans to another in order to make a scale.

However, intelligence is a construct with a huge range of various definitions. If you want to go all biblical you could just look for all Bible passages that describe a smart and wise person and construct a concept of "Biblical intelligence", which you measure by observing the kinds of behaviour related to smartness in the Bible (behaviour types that are religious per se, like praying and scripture reading would have to be excluded if you want to use your Biblical Intelligence scale on atheists). And then you can calculate a correlation between you Biblical Intelligence and religious faith.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Another thought occurred to me. What is the basis for determining IQ?

That thought has occurred to me as well. If two people have the same numerical I.Q., it says nothing about the unique individuals that they are. The two people will still be very different, and the two will still excel and struggle in different areas.

Having said that, it might be that I just don't know enough about I.Q. :dunno

 

[Claudya]

Having said that, it might be that I just don't know enough about I.Q.

What you said was about right. IQ is a mathematically constructed measure for a persons analytical problem solving capabilities or their skill with handling language, and such (you know, the typical IQ test tasks...) While some concepts of intelligence include things like creativity or emotional intelligence those things are hard to test quantitatively, so the typical IQ tests are usually testing for math skill, language, pattern recognition, and stuff like that. It's relevant for academics and various kinds of jobs, but totally incomplete in describing what real life demands of us.

The numerical IQ is then calculated through a linear transformation of the numerical test result via a z-Value standarisation method so the mean is always 100 and a thhe standard deviation is 15 (in some cases 10). I suppose that wasn't a very understandable explanation.... suffice it to say that it's a mathematical construct and you are right it doesn't say much about a person's success in life. Although intelligence has some predictive value for life success, other variables like confidence, self discipline and emotional intelligence seem to have a higher impact.
So there's guys with average IQ being greatly successfull in life because they have such warm and attractive personalities; while there's also people like me scoring high numerical IQ but still completely failing in life because they totally lack the other 3 things I mentioned two sentences ago.

Our society however ascribes a very high value to IQ intelligence. IQ = success, prestige, power, sexual attractiveness, and so on. That's why I guess questdriven is right, if you want to devalue christianity you can quote those correlation they found.

 

[Free Christian]

Im guessing that intelligence could be equated with wisdom by some, though I have met intelligent people who are not wise. So its wisdom that God holds highest above the two. So one could be intelligent, say there is no God and God say's "the fool has said in his heart, there is no God". To be wise, proverbs 9 v 10 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the holy is understanding".

 

[Lewis]

Hey Check this one link out it is even worse
Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else.
http://freethinker.co.uk/features/atheists-are-more-intelligent-than-religious-people/

 

[Milk-Drops]

Hey Check this one link out it is even worse
Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else.
http://freethinker.co.uk/features/atheists-are-more-intelligent-than-religious-people/

I'm just curious, why are you going out of your way to find stuff to you find insulting? I'm just curious. I'm here mostly to just have a conversation and correct some misconceptions with folks in the science forum and even correct some thougths on atheism and agnosticism.

I'm just wondering if you wanted to address some points you find wrong or misrepresented in these studies?

 

[Aardverk]

Hey Check this one link out it is even worse
Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else.
http://freethinker.co.uk/features/atheists-are-more-intelligent-than-religious-people/

Hang on a minute. What on earth makes you think this is even worse 'garbage'? Maybe you have misread it. The article is based on fact, not on belief or opinion - fact. This is what that article says.....

"Professor Lynn, Emeritus Professor of Psychology at Ulster University, said many more members of the “intellectual elite†considered themselves atheists than the national average. A decline in religious observance over the last century was directly linked to a rise in average intelligence, he claimed.

Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else.

A survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God – at a time when 68.5 percent of the general UK population described themselves as believers. A separate poll in the 90s found only seven percent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God.

Professor Lynn said most primary school children believed in God, but as they entered adolescence – and their intelligence increased – many started to have doubts......."
​

Now, you may not like the facts BUT those ARE the facts. Most of us have known that for decades. It is pointless getting angry about them. They are insulting to no-one. They are not surprising. This is not a new or controversial notion.

If you don't believe the facts you could commission your own study to challenge the Emeritus Professor of Psychology but I really wouldn't waste your time. His research results are undoubtedly correct, he is very much subject to peer review - especially as he is Irish!

"And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence." - Bertrand Russell​

There are many more excellent quotations here: http://atheistempire.com/greatminds/greatest.php Of course you may find them insulting too but they are intended by the authors to be humorous and/or perceptive. My point in referencing them is that they span history and show us that doubts among the 'educated' are nothing new.

Rather than insulting people ("garbage") for their beliefs, or lack of them, can't you just pity them or pray for them?

 

[Lewis]

Hey Check this one link out it is even worse
Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else.
http://freethinker.co.uk/features/atheists-are-more-intelligent-than-religious-people/

I'm just curious, why are you going out of your way to find stuff to you find insulting? I'm just curious. I'm here mostly to just have a conversation and correct some misconceptions with folks in the science forum and even correct some thougths on atheism and agnosticism.

I'm just wondering if you wanted to address some points you find wrong or misrepresented in these studies?

Because one of the reasons this site is here' is to learn' plain and simple.

 

[Aardverk]

Because one of the reasons this site is here' is to learn' plain and simple.

Learning is a highly laudable aim. It is sad that so many people have rigid ideas and are completely unwilling to learn.

It is worse in the USA than most places, presumably because the USA is still relatively isolated from the rest of the world. Also, the excellent 'can-do' attitude of many Americans tends to mask the fact that education standards are far from great. Yes, America has some of the best minds in the world - but also plenty of people who have no idea how ill-educated they really are.

 

[Lewis]

Hang on a minute. What on earth makes you think this is even worse 'garbage'? Maybe you have misread it. The article is based on fact, not on belief or opinion - fact. This is what that article says.....

How could you understand' when you have not the Holy Ghost' the Bible says' that the things we say is foolishness to the natural man. The natural man being you.

 

[Aardverk]

Hang on a minute. What on earth makes you think this is even worse 'garbage'? Maybe you have misread it. The article is based on fact, not on belief or opinion - fact. This is what that article says.....

How could you understand' when you have not the Holy Ghost' the Bible says' that the things we say is foolishness to the natural man. The natural man being you.

Ah well, I suppose you are right. I can't understand how facts can be anything but facts and foolishness anything but foolishness.

 

[handy]

Hey Check this one link out it is even worse
Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else.
http://freethinker.co.uk/features/atheists-are-more-intelligent-than-religious-people/

Hang on a minute. What on earth makes you think this is even worse 'garbage'? Maybe you have misread it. The article is based on fact, not on belief or opinion - fact. This is what that article says.....

"Professor Lynn, Emeritus Professor of Psychology at Ulster University, said many more members of the “intellectual elite†considered themselves atheists than the national average. A decline in religious observance over the last century was directly linked to a rise in average intelligence, he claimed.

Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else.

A survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God – at a time when 68.5 percent of the general UK population described themselves as believers. A separate poll in the 90s found only seven percent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God.

Professor Lynn said most primary school children believed in God, but as they entered adolescence – and their intelligence increased – many started to have doubts......."
​

Now, you may not like the facts BUT those ARE the facts. Most of us have known that for decades. It is pointless getting angry about them. They are insulting to no-one. They are not surprising. This is not a new or controversial notion.

If you don't believe the facts you could commission your own study to challenge the Emeritus Professor of Psychology but I really wouldn't waste your time. His research results are undoubtedly correct, he is very much subject to peer review - especially as he is Irish!

"And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence." - Bertrand Russell​

There are many more excellent quotations here: http://atheistempire.com/greatminds/greatest.php Of course you may find them insulting too but they are intended by the authors to be humorous and/or perceptive. My point in referencing them is that they span history and show us that doubts among the 'educated' are nothing new.

Rather than insulting people ("garbage") for their beliefs, or lack of them, can't you just pity them or pray for them?

The problem I see about the "facts" (as recorded in blue letter) is that these "facts" come off more as opinion.

"Professor Lynn, Emeritus Professor of Psychology at Ulster University, said many more members of the “intellectual elite†considered themselves atheists than the national average. A decline in religious observance over the last century was directly linked to a rise in average intelligence, he claimed.

Other than the fact that Professor Lynn claimed these things, what "facts" are being spoken of here? That many more members of the "intellectual elite" considered themselves atheists? Well, who is the "intellectual elite"? How does one gain membership in that club? Is it just academics...and if so are academics the only intelligent people out there?

Also the claim that the decline in religious observance over the last century was directly linked to a rise in average intelligence... OK, he claims that, but by what measure?

It's the measure that I think is skewed here.... It all smacks of "we are the intelligent ones and we say there is no God, so therefore if someone believes in God, they are not intelligent."

 

[Aardverk]

.....The problem I see about the "facts" (as recorded in blue letter) is that these "facts" come off more as opinion........
...........It's the measure that I think is skewed here.... It all smacks of "we are the intelligent ones and we say there is no God, so therefore if someone believes in God, they are not intelligent."

I am afraid you are substituting your own opinion for the facts under discussion. You would obviously need to read his own, peer reviewed, paper in full to get all the data that he used. Fortunately for all of us, Professors simply can not get away with making unsupported statements; their colleagues take great delight in proving them wrong. That is especially so in the sciences where there needs to be a demonstrable, repeatable proof. Psychology is a science with an accepted proof rate of 95% - which isn't too bad.

However, to avoid you going to all that trouble, let us restrict ourselves simply to the blue text that you re-printed:

"A survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God – at a time when 68.5 percent of the general UK population described themselves as believers. A separate poll in the 90s found only seven percent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God."​

Now, those statistics speak extremely loudly all by themselves. We don't need anyone to explain the impact of them. If you choose to regard all of the British Royal Society fellows and all the American National Academy of Sciences fellows as ill-educated or stupid, the statistics will mean nothing to you. If, on the other hand, you accept that they are some of the best brains in the world, the statistics are truly telling.

My point was simply that setting out facts for people cannot be 'garbage'. It is obviously possible for someone to produce 'garbage' when interpreting those facts but that is not what the original article does. It simply records facts for others to interpret however they wish. You seem to feel insulted by those facts but that is just your personal inference. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Aardverk]

This seems fairly appropriate to this thread.

"When I preach I regard neither doctors nor magistrates, of whom I have above forty in my congregation; I have all my eyes on the servant maids and on the children. And if the learned men are not well pleased with what they hear, well, the door is open"​

Martin Luther