[_ Old Earth _] A New Found Planet

[rthom7]

OK Barbarian, let's begin

Hypothesis: How does torah describe the authority of GOD?
Method: The word torah alone is studied in contexts because a single word is easier to study than a phrase. There are over 300 verses of context. Each context is listed appropriate to answering the hypothesis, and a discussion commentary added under each verse. The authority theme will emerge as all contexts of torah are totalled together.

Discussion:

(1) Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws (torah).

This verse is telling us Abraham knew torah. But we have no written record of torah in Abraham's time? Did oral copies of torah exist instead ? Notice the parallel suggestions that torah is
a) god's voice
b) his charge
c) his directions
d) his statutes
e) his teachings
All of this is torah....a broad concept....very first verse.

Ex 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law (torah) may be in thy mouth:

Interesting the torah is a sign upon the hand and between the eyes in our forehead. The reason is because the torah becomes the words of our mouth. Hands is a symbol of action, mind a symbol of thought, so everything we do and think is supposed to be torah based.

Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law (torah), or no.

Not only does GOD want torah in our hands and betwen the eyes, but also between our legs, how we walk in our lives is supposed to be based on torah as well.

Ex 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

Here is a parallel, torah is a simile of commandments...we are supposed to keep them

Ex 24:12 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law (torah) , and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

Here we see more parallels, an aspect of torah is that GOD Himself wrote certain commandments with his own finger, that shows supreme authority.

Ps 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
We are to delight in torah

Ps 19:7 ¶ The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

Torah is perfect , parallel with testimony of the Lord

Ps 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
The torah is our guide, our authority

Ps 119:18 ¶ Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Torah is wonderful

Ps 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever.
Torah is eternal

Pr 1:8 My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
Notice a parallel here, the torah is our source of authority and instruction

Pr 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light;
Notice a parallel here, the torah is our light

Isa 8:16 ¶ Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Torah is bound in testimony among disciples

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Obviously a disciple and a testimony of that disciple must agree with torah

Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable


A prophecy that YHWH would send Jesus to magnify torah, (not abolish torah)

continued with the NT equivalent

 

[rthom7]

NT study of torah (Greek nomos)

Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Jesus did not destroy torah, He came to complete torah

Mt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law ?

Notice torah is our authority, here Jesus quotes torah as an answer

Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The Jews had a poor concept of torah

Joh 7:23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
The Jews had a poor concept of torah

Joh 7:51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

The Jews had a poor concept of torah....

Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Some Jews believed a man was justified by keeping torah, but keeping torah alone does not save you....

Ac 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Notice the battle over torah's role in salvation

Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Seems like torah does justify...(I add this to give balance)

Ro 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,

Torah is our witness in our conscience

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace

Some ordinances of torah Jesus removed, such as animal sacrifice

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully
Torah is good and holy...

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient
Torah's role is to keep us from straying off the correct path

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law

Jesus became our priest and so torah about priests changed.

Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
The perfect torah of liberty must be a special class of torah...

Jas 2:8 ¶ If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
The royal torah, the ten commandments
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
James defines this special torah
1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law
The last verse of torah is important with authority too. Torah defines sin.


Summary continued

 

[rthom7]

Summary of torah

(1) Man made traditions is not a source of authority

So what can be learn of torah...torah is huge in Scripture...

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

Verses like these tell us man made traditions are not torah...

Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do

The Jews destroyed torah by adding their own traditions. Jesus did not like that.
SO disciples witness must agree with torah, otherwise he is a false disciples.

(2) Science reveals God's invisible hands, based on torah

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

They changed the glory of GOD, into naturalism.....instead of worshipping a Creator, they worship the Creation...

Ro 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman,

Is there a naturalism concept with religious implications changing the way humans live ?
Yes it's called evolution.

(3) Church decisions must be based on torah

Notice the first ever Christian church meeting....

Ac 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

The disciples did not add torah or remove torah, they simplified torah for new becoming gentile believers.

Shalom

 

[Barbarian]

Um, Matthew 18:16 says:
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that bin the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

KJV:
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Douay:
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

New English Translation:
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

New International Version:
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

 

[Barbarian]

(1) Man made traditions is not a source of authority

However, God-inspired tradtion is a source of authority, as is nature itself, as St. Paul tells us.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

So God himself shows us that the Bible is not the only authoritative source about God. From His creation, His power and divinity are clearly seen, so that men are without excuse.

Is there a naturalism concept with religious implications changing the way humans live ?

Young Earth Creationism.

it's called evolution.

Nope. Evolution is an observed phenomenon. Evolutionary theory explains it. God made evolution, man makes evolutionary theory.

"Torah" does not mean "imaginative pilpul."

 

[Lewis]

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Barbarian that is true.

 

[rthom7]

Barbarian

"Torah" does not mean "imaginative pilpul."

Pilpul - Jewish Virtual Library
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/.../ejud_0002_0016_0_15773.html

PILPUL (Heb. פִּלְפּוּל), a collective term denoting various methods of talmudic study and exposition, especially by the use of subtle legal, conceptual....

Why speak in riddles ? you know I will not understand you....

I didn't expect you to agree on "torah" , you have quickly gone back to quoting phrases...

I will ask you a simple question, about evolution.... where do weeds come from ?

Shalom

 

[turnorburn]

However, God-inspired tradtion is a source of authority, as is nature itself, as St. Paul tells us.

Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

So God himself shows us that the Bible is not the only authoritative source about God. From His creation, His power and divinity are clearly seen, so that men are without excuse.



Young Earth Creationism.



Nope. Evolution is an observed phenomenon. Evolutionary theory explains it. God made evolution, man makes evolutionary theory.

"Torah" does not mean "imaginative pilpul."

Barbarian you can't justify the doctrine of evolution using that verse, Paul went on to say..

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Changing Gods supernatural character to fit mans natural model doesn't work.. never has and it never will..

tob

 

[Barbarian]

Why speak in riddles ? you know I will not understand you....

"Pilpul" can be clever teasing out of truth, or it can be elaborate justifications for new doctrines that are not scriptural. I see your previous post as the latter.

I didn't expect you to agree on "torah" , you have quickly gone back to quoting phrases...

Arguments that are not grounded in scripture, apostolic tradition, or those "invisible things, clearly seen", are not useful, and will lead you astray.

I will ask you a simple question, about evolution.... where do weeds come from ?

You'll have to be more specific. "Weed" is not a scientific term, and applies to any plant we find annoyingly persistent in growing where we don't want it to grow. And there's not general agreement on which plants are weeds. Which "weed" do you want to know about?

Or if you want to know the origin of plants, I could show you what we know of that. Let me know what you'd like to know.

 

[Barbarian]

However, God-inspired tradition is a source of authority, as is nature itself, as St. Paul tells us.

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

So God himself shows us that the Bible is not the only authoritative source about God. From His creation, His power and divinity are clearly seen, so that men are without excuse

Barbarian you can't justify the doctrine of evolution using that verse,

There is no doctrine of evolution. Evolution is an observed phenomenon. Evolutionary theory explains it. God made evolution, man makes evolutionary theory. That verse is merely Paul pointing out that there are authoritative sources regarding God that are not in scripture. The Bible itself rejects sola scriptura. There are those who will argue to the contrary, rejecting what Paul told us, but he has an answer for them, too. Paul went on to say..

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Changing Gods supernatural character to fit YE creationism doesn't work.. never has and it never will.

 

[turnorburn]

I'm not changing Gods character to fit YE creation I'm confirming it, that's the glory of the Lord Barbarian.. Let the holy spirit explain Genesis to you not Darwin..

tob

 

[Barbarian]

I'm not changing Gods character to fit YE creation

It's at odds with the way Christians have always seen it. Even evangelicals, prior to the 1900s, accepted a very old Earth, millions of years at least.

The great Baptist minister Spurgeon:
But if you will look in the first chapter of Genesis, you will see there more particularly set forth that peculiar operation of power upon the universe which was put forth by the Holy Spirit; you will then discover what was his special work. In Ge 1:2, we read, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” We do not know how remote the period of the creation of this globe may be—certainly many millions of years before the time of Adam. Our planet has passed through various stages of existence, and different kinds of creatures have lived on its surface, all of which have been fashioned by God.
http://www.oldearth.org/spurgeon/spurgeon.htm#sthash.Jg2DsTE9.dpuf

Let the holy spirit explain Genesis to you

He has. And not just me, millions of Christians, long before YE creationism was invented.

not Darwin..

As Galileo observed, scripture tell you how to go to Heaven. Science tells you how the heavens go. Darwin's great discovery was how God actually created the diversity of living things, not how He created the universe.

 

[turnorburn]

Men these are examples put forward by men, I'm talking about Gods power the power to speak and its done, that's something no human can testify to, there is such a thing as denying that power, you can find it in II Timothy, that's something man has always been testifying to..

tob

 

[Barbarian]

Which is why man's invention of creationism is denying His power. That modern doctrine cannot replace God's creation.

 

[turnorburn]

Creation affirms his glory and his power, remember when Jesus turned water into wine, when he spoke and Lazarus came forth, that's the power of God I'm talking about and its not new, the story begins in Genesis..

tob

 

[Barbarian]

Why not just accept it His way, then?

 

[turnorburn]

Your comment didn't address what i said, matter of fact it doesn't make sense Jesus spoke Lazarus rose Jesus spoke Adam was created, its the difference between natural and supernatural can't have it both ways..

tob

 

[Barbarian]

Your comment didn't address what i said, matter of fact it doesn't make sense

Well, let's think about that...

Jesus spoke Lazarus rose Jesus spoke Adam was created, its the difference between natural and supernatural can't have it both ways..

God doesn't have to do miracles. He does them only when He wants to teach us something. Most everything here, he created by natural means. That's why we have nature. And as Augustine said, it's a more wonderful thing than many miracles.

 

[turnorburn]

He doesn't have to do anything he just does it, Jesus spoke nature into being on the third day..

Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

If you prefer mans interpretation that's your affair..

tob

 

[rthom7]

Barbarian, you have an interesting an complex reply

View attachment 6122

Here are the top 10 worlds worst weeds, some I recognize...number 1 is nutgrass,
2 is windmill grass, 3 is barnyard grass, 5 is paspalum grass, 6 Johnson grass, 7 is Blady grass, And 10 is Fat Hen. Then there's CockGrass or Cheat grass or the smooth rye grass that mimic's wheat and becomes the worst weed with wheat.

My question is where do weeds come from? Are they just normal plants taking advantage of a man made habitat ?

Shalom