A new Heart... Jeremiah 17:9

[Nathan]

Ok guys/gals. Something came up in our Sunday school class today.

My teacher did a series on a pure life. And one of his verses he used for the main theme is Jeremiah 17:9.

When he was going over it today something just hit me.

I raised the question, "is this the old heart, or our new heart?". He responded and said it was a good question. And then him and others agreed that it is our same heart. I think. Because to tell the truth I started digging myself.

I have always understood it that He gives us a new heart, one of flesh, one that is not hard toward Him. Which is precisely why we are able to have our desires turned toward Him after the new birth.

But I have alway been under the impression that this heart is not a wicked or deceitful one. That because He has wrote His law onto them, we now can follow Him not only in spirit, but in truth. The truth being with our hearts.

I also look at Hebrews chapters 9 and 10, and they show us to be pure in heart because of the sprinkling of His perfect blood on us.

So my question is. Do we indeed have a new heart? Is it still deceitful and wicked?

 

[Nathan]

Ok, so I had this in the Bible study forum. Never got anyones thoughts on it. Thought that if it was moved over here there might be some people give thoughts???

 

[Tina]

.

You are attending Sunday School ?

 

[Nathan]

.

You are attending Sunday School ?

yea...

 

[Drew]

So my question is. Do we indeed have a new heart? Is it still deceitful and wicked?

The believer is a new creation and indeed has a new heart. Here is a famous covenant renewal passage from Deuteronomy 30 that Paul quotes near the beginning of Romans 10:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

The work of Jesus on the Cross constitutes the renewal of the covenant. The believer has the "law" (and what "law" means is a whole other issue) in his/her heart so that s/he can, yes, obey it.

So Jeremiah 17:9 most certainly is not describing the Christian.

One exception: In Romans 8, it is rather clear that Paul believes that the believer can indeed "revert to the old man". So, in theory, one cannot "backslide" and re-appropriate the kind of heart described in Jeremiah 17:9.

But I would suggest that the Jeremiah 17:9 text refers to the state of a person before conversion, not after it. Remember: new creation.

 

[Nathan]

Thanks drew. ;)

 

[Nathan]

Seriously...:... No one has anymore thoughts or ideas? Does the born again believer have a new heart.... If we do is it still "desperately wicked"???

I have my belief. But I have heard others say that it is still desperately wicked as in Jeremiah 17:9. I am just trying to get a feel for what others believe. I am not really looking for a debate. Just some input. :yes

 

[littlelight]

Nathaniel, I don't know if this will help but here is some old testament scripture concerning a man that God gave another heart to:

1 Sam 10:9-10
9 So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart; and all those signs came to pass that day.
NKJV

Then you can follow up by reading what happened to him in later life. God bless on your search.

 

[Tina]

.

JEREMIAH 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.


Psalm 139:23
Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties;

Psalm 19:12-13
Who can understand his errors? Cleanse me from secret faults. Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins; Let them not have dominion over me. Then I shall be blameless, and I shall be innocent of great transgression.




Though we are new creations in Christ in spirit, our carnal mind and flesh is not exempt from sinful thoughts and actions. For the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. By God's grace, we are perfected and strengthened each day.


1 Peter 5:6-11
Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you. To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.




Btw Nathanielhooper, you are a plenty smart Sunday School kid ! ...

 

[Nathan]

Thanks Tina. I am actually not very smart, but God is, and when I actually seek Him for His unlimited knowledge and wisdom He does give liberally.

 

[Nathan]

I think we do receive a "new" heart. And in my studies it is conclusive that the 'heart' of man is where desire is born. The mind of man is where motive is born. And the flesh of man is where these two get 'mixed' together and are shown forth.

So if a person was to apply Jeremiah 17:9 to the 'new' heart, then that would mean that God put into us a heart that is wicked.

But, I guess if you went off the description of our hearts being wounded then that might change the picture a little. But even still, wounded is a long way from 'desperately wicked'.

I think it might be that we confuse the different parts that make up this living, breathing, walking around, physical person we see in the mirror. I think that maybe in order to understand the whole of the matter we have to dive into the depths of the distinctiveness God makes about who we are.

But that is another subject. My thoughts are really the whole idea of the new heart verses the old heart. If there is a actual change in them. If anyone else see's them as the source of desire in a person. And if it is possible to have a desperately wicked desire.

I know that when you put things that way, it kind of jumps up off the page as a big NO. But I know people that I 'trust' somewhat, and they believe otherwise. Or maybe they just have not thought it through all the way??

Just working things over in my mind. Thanks for the feedback. please do not think I am diving over the deep edge with evil desires running rampant in my mind. lol.

 

[Elijah674]

Seriously...:... No one has anymore thoughts or ideas? Does the born again believer have a new heart.... If we do is it still "desperately wicked"???

I have my belief. But I have heard others say that it is still desperately wicked as in Jeremiah 17:9. I am just trying to get a feel for what others believe. I am not really looking for a debate. Just some input. :yes

Adam needed NO New Heart at creation. Adam sinned and then Needed The New Birth. The same as all of us! Adam did not loose all of the Lords traits (image) at once even bodywise. But he was eternally [GONE] without the plan of salvation being followed out.

OK: The body was still dieing even after he was reborn, (and is desperately wicked!) sick with sin, & as time went on we know its results, it was (the body) not Born Again. BUT THE BORN AGAIN MIND WAS TO RULE THE CARNAL BODY & not the other way around. Phil. 4:13

And the New Heart?? We are made the Epistle Letter of Christ with His Moral Character recreated in our heart & Mind. 2 Cor. 3:3 + Heb. 10:15-16 & Heb. 8:10, [BUT], we MUST UNDERSTAND the ETERNAL CONDITION to Being Born Again! Acts 5:32's [CONDITION].

--Elijah

 

[Elvispelvis]

Nathaniel Abraham is in the kingdom he does not have a new heart.
Isaac is in the kingdom he does not have a new heart.
Jacob is in the kingdom he does not have a new heart.
The phrase a new heart is symbolic language not literal. A metaphor is not to be taken literally.
You are mixing literal heart with symbolic heart.
When people say that man has a big heart is that literally or symbolically.
When someone says that team played with heart is that literally or symbolically.
See what I mean !
So is Jeremiah talking about This or that we have to decide first.
To prove any theory you must have at least 28 bible verses scattered hear a little there a little. a line in one book
and a line in another book agreeing with each other. Never ever take just a couple of verses and try to make
a doctrine out of it . This is why there are ""4,203 churches all collecting money for God"".

So scripture must agree with scripture.

Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a man can make him ‘unclean’ by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him ‘unclean.’ ” [fn6]

17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? 19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”)

20 He went on: “What comes out of a man is what makes him ‘unclean.

’ 21 For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery,

22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’ ”

You see giving us a new heart can not mean what people would like to believe , because even Yeshua
says in the new testament mans heart is evil.

Open our eyes and take a close look at he world and tell me we are getting better or worse.

ARMAGEDDON is coming because mans heart is desperately wicked AND WHO CAN KNOW IT?

May God bless your study of His Holy Bible

ps nathaniel let me know if you would like more on this subject

 

[Elvispelvis]

Bye the way Tina all the members of our church attend Sunday School every week of our lives.

We all, are hungry to eat God's word for breakfast.

I love Sunday School where as a 62 year old man I was chosen
to play King David in our Sunday School play.

We have classes for all ages for we are all God's children.

We are commanded to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Sunday school is fun.

 

[Sinthesis]

Ok guys/gals. Something came up in our Sunday school class today.

My teacher did a series on a pure life. And one of his verses he used for the main theme is Jeremiah 17:9.

When he was going over it today something just hit me.

I raised the question, "is this the old heart, or our new heart?". He responded and said it was a good question. And then him and others agreed that it is our same heart. I think. Because to tell the truth I started digging myself.

I have always understood it that He gives us a new heart, one of flesh, one that is not hard toward Him. Which is precisely why we are able to have our desires turned toward Him after the new birth.

But I have alway been under the impression that this heart is not a wicked or deceitful one. That because He has wrote His law onto them, we now can follow Him not only in spirit, but in truth. The truth being with our hearts.

I also look at Hebrews chapters 9 and 10, and they show us to be pure in heart because of the sprinkling of His perfect blood on us.

So my question is. Do we indeed have a new heart? Is it still deceitful and wicked?

It appears you have a mild case of prooftexting. When did Jeremiah live? Who is Jeremiah talking about in Chapter 17? What has happened since Jeremiah's time?

 

[smaller]

I think we do receive a "new" heart. And in my studies it is conclusive that the 'heart' of man is where desire is born. The mind of man is where motive is born. And the flesh of man is where these two get 'mixed' together and are shown forth.

So if a person was to apply Jeremiah 17:9 to the 'new' heart, then that would mean that God put into us a heart that is wicked.

But, I guess if you went off the description of our hearts being wounded then that might change the picture a little. But even still, wounded is a long way from 'desperately wicked'.

I think it might be that we confuse the different parts that make up this living, breathing, walking around, physical person we see in the mirror. I think that maybe in order to understand the whole of the matter we have to dive into the depths of the distinctiveness God makes about who we are.

But that is another subject. My thoughts are really the whole idea of the new heart verses the old heart. If there is a actual change in them. If anyone else see's them as the source of desire in a person. And if it is possible to have a desperately wicked desire.

I know that when you put things that way, it kind of jumps up off the page as a big NO. But I know people that I 'trust' somewhat, and they believe otherwise. Or maybe they just have not thought it through all the way??

Just working things over in my mind. Thanks for the feedback. please do not think I am diving over the deep edge with evil desires running rampant in my mind. lol.

No person with the presence of indwelling sin has a PURE SINLESS HEART, regardless of their 'states' of belief.

One can easily look at Paul and say this is probably the present condition of ALL believers IF this was true for Paul:

Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

No person is 'presently exempt' from THIS LAW.


To come before God IN TRUTH...this TRUTH can not be denied for one to be IN TRUTH.

In TRUTH we can say that EVIL IS PRESENT WITH US. It is for us, as for Paul, NO LONGER I. That EVIL is the ever present operations of indwelling sin and it's reactions to GODS WORDS, particularly of LAW. The LAW continually PROVES this presence to be WITHIN our hearts.

That operation will CEASE when SIN is TAKEN AWAY from within mankind. This has not yet transpired for us who are presently here, or were there at the time Paul penned that writing.

The facts remain that as Paul taught, we are ALL presently sown in CORRUPTION, WEAKNESS, DISHONOUR and in a 'natural body.' These are PRESENT FACTS from 1 Cor. 15, as much as MANY BELIEVERS do not like to acknowledge these 'facts' personally, as it is an assualt on their PRIDE. But these are facts nevertheless, and as such these things are meant to KEEP US in a present state of both READINESS and HUMBLENESS with HEAD BOWED and COVERED IN WAITING for the elimination of these things through PERMANENT CHANGE into INCORRUPTIBLE, STRENGTH OF POWER and HONOUR in a SPIRITUAL BODY that is no longer PLANTED or SOWN, but RAISED FROM THE DEAD. This is in fact the essence of the Gospel. That we will RISE from these matters into a PERMANENT STATE OF BEING with God and APART from all of those very real and present workings.

The heart then? Yes, DECEIPTFULLY WICKED STILL.

Why? Because of the LAW of EVIL PRESENT with ALL. There is no use carrying A LIE within ourselves in DENIAL of these facts of evil present and indwelling sin.

That stray EVIL THOUGHT? It is of a presence that is NOT YOU as a believer but IS of the DEVIL who still has 'thought access' to the hearts of ALL mankind.

There is no exception to this RULE OF LAW other than God Himself in Jesus Christ while here 'in the flesh.'

There is a PROMISED LAND...that of a SPIRITUAL BODY that is our own and FREE from CORRUPTION, WEAKNESS and DISHONOUR.

This is what we 'patiently await.' In the meantime we DEAL with our present realities.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Drew]

No person with the presence of indwelling sin has a PURE SINLESS HEART, regardless of their 'states' of belief.

One can easily look at Paul and say this is probably the present condition of ALL believers IF this was true for Paul:

Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

No person is 'presently exempt' from THIS LAW.

This bit of Romans 7 does not refer to the believer, so it does not refute the position that the Jeramiah 17:9 heart has been left behind (for the believer).

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.

 

[smaller]

This bit of Romans 7 does not refer to the believer, so it does not refute the position that the Jeramiah 17:9 heart has been left behind (for the believer).

Romans 7 is Paul, the Apostle speaking of his OWN CONDITION, which same did not change POST salvation. Paul DID EVIL and had EVIL PRESENT within himself, period. That is what THAT LAW he found and described to us is and speaks of.

To say that the BELIEVER no longer SINS is patently FALSE. The fact of SIN in thought, word and deed PROVES the validity of THAT LAW and the validity of EVIL PRESENT and indwelling sin IN the believer.

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

What was TRUE FOR PAUL is 'NOT TRUE' for evil present or the power of indwelling sin. Paul advised NOT to have that presence REIGN in the mortal body because IT IS THERE to REIGN.

If you say you have NO SIN, then you are under deception and NOT IN TRUTH.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

Paul did a sufficient job in DIVIDING HIMSELF as NOT being that working. Yet still CARRIED it in his mortal body.

Most believers can NOT come to grips with these simple teachings BECAUSE of the power of sin and evil present within themselves. They are FORCED into DENIAL and LIES by that power that is WITHIN themselves and can NOT stand under this FACT.

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent.

That is because you insist on seeing PAUL the same as the indwelling sin and evil present. Paul did NOT describe that working or operation AS himself, but DENIED it was him, even when in operations of Paul doing EVIL.

Paul did not say EVIL I DID, but EVIL I DO.

Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.

Evil present and indwelling sin REMAIN fully operational in ALL people regardless of their claims of immunity. Immunity claim is a common LIE.

No one can claim they HAVE NO SIN and be IN TRUTH. (1 John 1:8)

WE as believers CAN and ARE forgiven of those matters. EVIL PRESENT however will NOT have that same measure.

enjoy!

s

 

[Drew]

Romans 7 is Paul, the Apostle speaking of his OWN CONDITION, which same did not change POST salvation. Paul DID EVIL and had EVIL PRESENT within himself, period. That is what THAT LAW he found and described to us is and speaks of.

No. This assertion of yours cannot be reconciled with Romans 8 as per the argument I have provided. The person described in Romans 7 cannot be a Christian. You simply assert here that Paul's status did not change post-salvation. You need to provide a supporting argument.

To say that the BELIEVER no longer SINS is patently FALSE.

Who said the believer no longer sins? I will join in you in critiquing such a position. You seem to think that I hold this position. Well, you did not get that from my post - I never suggested that the believer never sins. I suggested that the believer is no longer enslaved to sin. Important difference.

The fact of SIN in thought, word and deed PROVES the validity of THAT LAW and the validity of EVIL PRESENT and indwelling sin IN the believer.

No. As Paul says in Romans 8, the believer has been set free from the enslaving power of that "law of sin and death". He could really not be clearer:

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

The fact that believers do sin now and then is not the same thing as being "enslaved to sin". I drink a beer now and again. Am I "enslaved" to beer? Obviously not.

I do not follow the rest of your argument. To me, it is simple: the person in Romans 7 is described as being enslaved to sin, Jesus then delivers that person:

Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord

And then in Romans 8, we get more about the believer - he is set free from the bondage that the person in Romans 7 is under.

 

[Drew]

More about Romans 7 and why it cannot be describing the Christian. Here is one thing Paul writes in Romans 7:

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out

A Christian who cannot do good deeds, eh?

Hmmmm....

We know clearly from a wide range of scriptures that, of course, the believer is indeed enabled through the Holy Spirit to do good things.

This is one of many reasons to conclude that the person described in Romans 7 cannot be a believer.