A new Heart... Jeremiah 17:9

[smaller]

More about Romans 7 and why it cannot be describing the Christian. Here is one thing Paul writes in Romans 7:

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out

A Christian who cannot do good deeds, eh?

Hmmmm....

We know clearly from a wide range of scriptures that, of course, the believer is indeed enabled through the Holy Spirit to do good things.

This is one of many reasons to conclude that the person described in Romans 7 cannot be a believer.

The person in Romans 7 described therein is Paul, POST salvation. He now SEES what his prior problems were and 'how' that continues to work in himself. Blindmen CAN'T see these matters. They are intentionally BLINDED by the facts that Paul depicts.

 

[Drew]

The person in Romans 7 described therein is Paul, POST salvation.

Not only do you have no evidnence for this statement, it cannot be true. Was Paul present at Mount Sinai when the Law of Moses was given? No he was not. And yet the "I" here refers to this very thing - the delivery of the Law of Moses (exemplified by the commandment about coveting):

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

So since the "I" cannot be Paul - Paul was not born when the "commandment came" what options are left?

Paul uses the "I" in Romans 7 to identify himself with Israel - remember his grief expressed in Romans 9. If Paul wants to make an argument about Israel being in slavery to sin here – and I think that he does – the last thing he wants to do is use the term “they†with the strong implication of himself, as a Christian, standing over against them. They are his people and he does not to drive a wedge between himself and them. Thus the use of the “Iâ€.

But there are other more compelling reasons to see that Paul is not speaking of himself as an individual but rather as a representative of his people, Israel:

I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Paul refers to the event "when the commandment came". That is a clear reference to Sinai and the delivery of the Torah to Moses, more than 1000 years before Paul was even born. You effectively have him saying "when I developed awareness of the commandment". But that is not what Paul is saying - beware the tendency to deform what Paul is saying.

A reference to the commandment "coming" means what it means – a commandment being delivered. And that happened at Sinai (e.g. “do not covet†as part of the 10 commandments), not in Paul’s lifetime. If Paul had meant to say "when I became aware of the commandment", that's what he would have said. Would we say “when the commandment to not hit our brother came†to denote our developing awareness, say at age 8, that it was not OK to hit our baby brother? No, we would not, and neither does Paul.

The reader may object that I am being too strict here and that Paul could have used such an expression to denote the moment when he became aware of the law. Fine. But this text clearly cannot work with the notion that the “I†is Paul as an individual:

What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

If the "I" here is Paul we have a huge problem. Note the tense. Paul, in the present as he writes Romans 7 is a wretched man who needs rescue? Of course not - Paul in the present has already been rescued (see Romans 8). I suggest this text alone undermines the possibility that the “I†in Romans 7 is Paul the individual.

But note how this problem disappears if we understand the "I" to be the nation of Israel - even as Paul writes, almost all of them stand outside of the gospel, needing rescue from death as the text says.

I suspect that you will suggest that I am guilty of the very same deforming of Paul’s words that I have criticized when I suggest that Paul uses the term "I" to denote the nation of Israel. Well, we have evidence of Paul using a reference to a single Jew in order to actually refer to the whole nation:

So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

This is an argument about one Gentile and one Jew - at least literally. And yet it is otherwise clear that the Jew here being judged is a representative of Jews in general.

So there is indeed precedent for Paul speaking this way.

 

[smaller]

No. This assertion of yours cannot be reconciled with Romans 8 as per the argument I have provided. The person described in Romans 7 cannot be a Christian. You simply assert here that Paul's status did not change post-salvation. You need to provide a supporting argument.


Who said the believer no longer sins? I will join in you in critiquing such a position. You seem to think that I hold this position. Well, you did not get that from my post - I never suggested that the believer never sins. I suggested that the believer is no longer enslaved to sin. Important difference.


No. As Paul says in Romans 8, the believer has been set free from the enslaving power of that "law of sin and death". He could really not be clearer:

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

The fact that believers do sin now and then is not the same thing as being "enslaved to sin". I drink a beer now and again. Am I "enslaved" to beer? Obviously not.

I do not follow the rest of your argument. To me, it is simple: the person in Romans 7 is described as being enslaved to sin, Jesus then delivers that person:

Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord

And then in Romans 8, we get more about the believer - he is set free from the bondage that the person in Romans 7 is under.

Paul in Romans 7 refers to himself in the forms of I, me, my and myself nearly 50 times from v. 7 on, and is clearly speaking of himself, Paul, not SAUL, his OLD BLINDED MAN.

IF you claim you still sin, which apparently you DO claim that fact, then the case is put to rest, degrees of DOMINATION notwithstanding.

Paul as a fact NEVER claimed the sinless perfection of the flesh/mind EVER. Paul existed as a CHILD OF GOD immersed WITH those conflicting powers IN HIS OWN MORTAL BODY, and taught that we are in fact sown in CORRPUPTION, WEAKNESS, DISHONOUR and a NATURAL BODY.

s

 

[smaller]

Not only do you have no evidnence for this statement, it cannot be true. Was Paul present at Mount Sinai when the Law of Moses was given? No he was not. And yet the "I" here refers to this very thing - the delivery of the Law of Moses (exemplified by the commandment about coveting):

The LAW that Paul described in Romans 7 was just as applicable to arouse the powers of indwelling sin as THE DAY that Law was delivered. Paul's being PRESENT at Mt. Sinai IN ORDER for applicability? Surely you JEST?!

Paul taught that the LAW was 'spiritual.' As such it's SPIRITUAL POWERS remain in ACTIVE RESISTANCE to the powers of SIN in the flesh/mind and the latter WORKS in man regardless of their state of beliefs, as you have also attested to for yourSELF.

What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

So since the "I" cannot be Paul - Paul was not born when the "commandment came" what options are left?

Stating that the LAWS of GOD were only effective for those standing at Mt. Sinai is patent absurdity. Jesus quoted and applied LAWS OF MOSES continually during His Ministrations thereby SHOWING their validity not only to ISRAEL but TO MANKIND (Matt. 4:4 & Luke 4:4, please feel free to LOOK at them!) Paul does NO different. The LAW is for the LAWLESS and ALL MEN carry same as the presence of INDWELLING SIN.

Paul uses the "I" in Romans 7 to identify himself with Israel - remember his grief expressed in Romans 9. If Paul wants to make an argument about Israel being in slavery to sin here – and I think that he does – the last thing he wants to do is use the term “they” with the strong implication of himself, as a Christian, standing over against them. They are his people and he does not to drive a wedge between himself and them. Thus the use of the “I”.

Indeed. The entirety of Romans 7 from vs. 7 to the end of that chapter is about Paul in I, me, my and myself present tense terms. What is true for Paul is true for EVERY MAN except God Himself in SINLESS FLESH of Jesus Christ, the SOLE exception to the RULE.

But there are other more compelling reasons to see that Paul is not speaking of himself as an individual but rather as a representative of his people, Israel:

You seem rather intent on getting off Paul an onto Israel, where Israel is not mentioned ONE TIME in the entire chapter of Romans 7 and Paul refers to himself nearly 50 times.

I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Paul refers to the event "when the commandment came". That is a clear reference to Sinai and the delivery of the Torah to Moses, more than 1000 years before Paul was even born. You effectively have him saying "when I developed awareness of the commandment". But that is not what Paul is saying - beware the tendency to deform what Paul is saying.

Yes Drew, that IS what Paul is stating for himself.

Drew, seriously, your claim is quite the nonsense again. That LAW did what it did IN PAUL in relationship to the presence of INDWELLING SIN. It's that simple. There are no other twists need to read and understand what was transpiring IN Paul by that LAW in relationship to the presence of indwelling sin and EVIL PRESENT with him.

A reference to the commandment "coming" means what it means – a commandment being delivered. And that happened at Sinai (e.g. “do not covet” as part of the 10 commandments), not in Paul’s lifetime. If Paul had meant to say "when I became aware of the commandment", that's what he would have said. Would we say “when the commandment to not hit our brother came” to denote our developing awareness, say at age 8, that it was not OK to hit our baby brother? No, we would not, and neither does Paul.

According to JESUS, not DREW, EVERY WORD of God is FOR MAN.

That WORD has not evaporated and IS ALIVE AND WELL AND WORKING RIGHT NOW in this present environment.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I am not of the HABIT of ERADICATING Gods Words on the basis of the point of delivery or the impositions upon certain people for certain periods and then eliminations.

Jesus advised us this and HIS WORDS are TRUTH:

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Those who ELIMINATE ANY WORD OF GOD as applicable TO MAN need only READ Jesus' statements to find THE TRUTH and see that they are IN CONFLICT with Jesus when they ELIMINATE ANY WORD OF GOD as applicable TO MAN...

The reader may object that I am being too strict here and that Paul could have used such an expression to denote the moment when he became aware of the law. Fine. But this text clearly cannot work with the notion that the “I” is Paul as an individual:

Seriously man, you have a stretch that simply isn't there on a LOT of counts. All have SIN and the LAW is against ALL SIN, period, end of conversation.

 

[Nathan]

you guys done? :D

 

[Drew]

The LAW that Paul described in Romans 7 was just as applicable to arouse the powers of indwelling sin as THE DAY that Law was delivered. Paul's being PRESENT at Mt. Sinai IN ORDER for applicability? Surely you JEST?!

You should know by now that I do not jest. And I am confident my position on this matter is Biblically defensible.

Paul taught that the LAW was 'spiritual.' As such it's SPIRITUAL POWERS remain in ACTIVE RESISTANCE to the powers of SIN in the flesh/mind and the latter WORKS in man regardless of their state of beliefs, as you have also attested to for yourSELF.

I am not sure how you defend this. My argument is what it is. As I work through the rest of your post, we'll see if you actually engage it.

Stating that the LAWS of GOD were only effective for those standing at Mt. Sinai is patent absurdity.

Well if I had actually said such a thing, then you would be right. But I never said this. Paul uses the "I" as a linguistic device to denote the nation of Israel that received the Law of Moses at Mount Sinai.

Jesus quoted and applied LAWS OF MOSES continually during His Ministrations thereby SHOWING their validity not only to ISRAEL but TO MANKIND (Matt. 4:4 & Luke 4:4, please feel free to LOOK at them!)

Jesus never does anything of the kind in these two texts.

It is true that Jesus uses the term "man" here, without explicitly referring to Jews. But that does not give you warrant to conclude that Jesus believes the Law of Moses is universal. It most certainly is not: both the Old Testament and Paul are clear - the written code of the Law of Moses was given to Jews and Jews only.

The case for this is overwhelming - Paul repeatedly speaks of the Law of Moses as applicable to Jews and Jews only. I could bury you, and probably will, in the relevant textual evidence.

If your claim is correct - that the Law of Moses is for Gentiles - then Paul has a huge error in his theology. For there is no doubt: Paul sees the Law of Moses as being given to Jews only.

 

[Drew]

you guys done? :D

Nope. But if you are reading our to and fro, please tell us what you think of our respective arguments.

 

[Elijah674]

Here we see one with the 100% New Heart, FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST of Acts 7:55. It is His Holy Spirit Inspired Testimony! The 32 verse [ETERNALLY TELLS WHO 'ONLY' HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT] or the NEW HEART TRANSPLANT. (The Born Again First created Birthing with No flaws) And it seems that some say that Paul is telling us that this New Birth was flawed?? It was the body only that is still flawed, And Paul tells how he being carnal before the Born Again life.. could not DO GOOD! (See Romans 7:23-25 + 1 Cor. 6:9-11 and verse 11, with Paul's wording of 'WERE SOME OF YOU' in past/tense)

So if that is still you??? see more of the first requirements below..

Acts 7
[30] The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
[31] Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
[32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
[33] When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

So bottom/line.. NO ONE has the Holy Spirits New Birth or New Heart Transplant without 100% Submission to all of the Holy Spirits Word of Christs CONDITIONS! And God's WORD was & is Conditional from Gen. 1 to Rev. 22 Ending!

--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

Nope. But if you are reading our to and fro, please tell us what you think of our respective arguments.

I was just playing around drew. Sometimes the kid in me comes out. :D

Let me think on this for a bit and I will get back on here.

 

[Nathan]

I see. After going over this I am amazed at the similarity of the two opposing sides of this topic. What I mean is 'smaller' is presenting the side of the "desperately wicked" heart as perceived by those who would make "excuses" for their sin. No offense smaller, it is just that simple. You are saying that there is no way for us to ever leave sin. So, we might as well be "truthful" and say that we cannot stop sinning. But that leaves out so much Scriptural evidence.

I understand what you are saying drew, and I agree. To quote, or rather paraphrase someone that I have come to understand has a good grasp on these things,

"The law of MOSES contained in the ordinances and such was put into the SIDE of the ark of the covenant. The Law of God, the ten commandments, were placed INTO the ark. We know for a FACT that the ark was symbolic of none other than Christ Himself. He took the Law of MOSES and nailed it to the cross. But we who are IN Christ contain the Law of God within us still."

I have come to the conclusion of the previous understanding I have always held to. That the heart we receive is indeed a new heart. Free from wickedness. So that in "truth" we can say that the desires of our hearts is to follow Him. Unless someone can just absolutely overwhelm me with some contextual scriptural evidence, there is just no other way around this.

 

[Nathan]

Here we see one with the 100% New Heart, FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST of Acts 7:55. It is His Holy Spirit Inspired Testimony! The 32 verse [ETERNALLY TELLS WHO 'ONLY' HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT] or the NEW HEART TRANSPLANT. (The Born Again First created Birthing with No flaws) And it seems that some say that Paul is telling us that this New Birth was flawed?? It was the body only that is still flawed, And Paul tells how he being carnal before the Born Again life.. could not DO GOOD! (See Romans 7:23-25 + 1 Cor. 6:9-11 and verse 11, with Paul's wording of 'WERE SOME OF YOU' in past/tense)

So if that is still you??? see more of the first requirements below..

Acts 7
[30] The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
[31] Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
[32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
[33] When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.

So bottom/line.. NO ONE has the Holy Spirits New Birth or New Heart Transplant without 100% Submission to all of the Holy Spirits Word of Christs CONDITIONS! And God's WORD was & is Conditional from Gen. 1 to Rev. 22 Ending!

--Elijah

Thanks Elijah, very well put and very clear to understand.

 

[Drew]

The person in Romans 7 described therein is Paul, POST salvation. He now SEES what his prior problems were and 'how' that continues to work in himself. Blindmen CAN'T see these matters. They are intentionally BLINDED by the facts that Paul depicts.

Your claim cannot be reconciled with what Paul actually says about his present state - if the "I" is Paul "post-salvationb" as you claim.

What does Paul say about himself "post-salvation", if you are right? He says this:

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out

Clearly this statement cannot be predicated of a believer! How can you possibly believe that "Paul post-salvation" cannot do good! Please - a little respect for the text.

It says what it says! The "I" here cannot do good. How can that possibly be a description of a new creation that is being conformed to the likeness of Jesus.

 

[smaller]

Your claim cannot be reconciled with what Paul actually says about his present state - if the "I" is Paul "post-salvationb" as you claim.

Drew, Paul 'the believer' assuredly had the presence of indwelling sin as depicted in Romans 7 for himself. There is no other read available.

What does Paul say about himself "post-salvation", if you are right? He says this:

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out

Indeed. Note the tense. 'Have' not 'had.' I cannot, not I could not. Those are present tense applications of the power of sin IN PAUL or IN ANY who have the presence of indwelling sin, meaning ALL.

Clearly this statement cannot be predicated of a believer!

You can certainly try to claim sinless perfect of the flesh/mind of Paul. Step right in and we'll have a ball if that's where you want to take it. Many go that path, and when they do they are in fact deceived.

How can you possibly believe that "Paul post-salvation" cannot do good! Please - a little respect for the text.

Indwelling sin and evil present NEVER do good Drew. That presence does assuredly touch and taint ALL, hence our ever pressing 'need' for GRACE.

It says what it says! The "I" here cannot do good. How can that possibly be a description of a new creation that is being conformed to the likeness of Jesus.

There is Paul and there is the presence that was NOT Paul that does what it does and it does not change what it does. Is this a difficult concept for you to grasp? No one makes indwelling sin or evil present-OBEDIENT regardless of the exterior paint applications.

Paul was being very honest about these matters, as offensive as that may seem to you.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[smaller]

I see. After going over this I am amazed at the similarity of the two opposing sides of this topic. What I mean is 'smaller' is presenting the side of the "desperately wicked" heart as perceived by those who would make "excuses" for their sin. No offense smaller, it is just that simple.

There are no excuses available for sin. Don't know how in the world you possibly picked that understanding out of my posts. Sin is and remains utterly condemned in ANY in whom it is found. Your alternative is to claim sinless perfection of flesh and mind. At that point you would be on the ground of heresy by any orthodox measures.

You are saying that there is no way for us to ever leave sin.

Paul remained in his mortal body that had indwelling sin and evil present. His conclusion was very clear. That when he wanted to do good, the FACT REMAINED that EVIL WAS PRESENT WITH him.

Paul identified that EVIL PRESENT as 'not him.' We also know that sin is of the devil and that Paul HAD A DEVIL. Do the math Nate.

We are asked not to let 'sin reign' in the mortal body because of the fact that IT IS THERE TO REIGN.

So, we might as well be "truthful" and say that we cannot stop sinning. But that leaves out so much Scriptural evidence.

Indwelling sin and evil present does not 'change it's stripes' when Jesus is painted across the lips. One must understand the DIVIDE between that working and ourselves as Gods children.

Any other angle on these facts will lead to deception. In order to be in Truth there is a requirement to be TRUTHFUL about these matters.

We cannot say we have no sin and be IN TRUTH.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Elijah674]

There are no excuses available for sin. Don't know how in the world you possibly picked that understanding out of my posts. Sin is and remains utterly condemned in ANY in whom it is found. Your alternative is to claim sinless perfection of flesh and mind. At that point you would be on the ground of heresy by any orthodox measures.


Paul remained in his mortal body that had indwelling sin and evil present. His conclusion was very clear. That when he wanted to do good, the FACT REMAINED that EVIL WAS PRESENT WITH him.

Paul identified that EVIL PRESENT as 'not him.' We also know that sin is of the devil and that Paul HAD A DEVIL. Do the math Nate.

We are asked not to let 'sin reign' in the mortal body because of the fact that IT IS THERE TO REIGN.


Indwelling sin and evil present does not 'change it's stripes' when Jesus is painted across the lips. One must understand the DIVIDE between that working and ourselves as Gods children.

Any other angle on these facts will lead to deception. In order to be in Truth there is a requirement to be TRUTHFUL about these matters.

We cannot say we have no sin and be IN TRUTH.

enjoy!

smaller

Hi, Elijah here:
Who ever even hinted that they had not sinned? The Born Again Christian [MATURES] towards PERFECTION. Any other way is presumption + being a cop/out! And you use Paul as teaching what??
He in Phil. 4:13 says that ' I CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH CHRIST THAT STRENGTHENETH ME. And again Paul penned in 2 Cor. 12

[9] And HE said unto me, [My grace is sufficient for thee:] for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

I wonder at times of ones total surrender? (as stated, Acts 5:32) But if one is Rom. 8:1's [IN CHRIST] they can quickly understand Paul in Phil. 3:12-19 And I will leave the verses for any to accept as they freely desire, one way or the other? (Gen. 4:7)

--Elijah

PS: Isa. 59:1-2 'DOCUMENTS' that your 'sin' will [SEPERATE BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD].. and HE WILL NOT HEAR].' (ones prayers even!) And this is again conditional of ones repentance or just living in open documented known sin.

 

[Nathan]

There are no excuses available for sin. Don't know how in the world you possibly picked that understanding out of my posts. Sin is and remains utterly condemned in ANY in whom it is found. Your alternative is to claim sinless perfection of flesh and mind. At that point you would be on the ground of heresy by any orthodox measures.


Paul remained in his mortal body that had indwelling sin and evil present. His conclusion was very clear. That when he wanted to do good, the FACT REMAINED that EVIL WAS PRESENT WITH him.

Paul identified that EVIL PRESENT as 'not him.' We also know that sin is of the devil and that Paul HAD A DEVIL. Do the math Nate.

We are asked not to let 'sin reign' in the mortal body because of the fact that IT IS THERE TO REIGN.


Indwelling sin and evil present does not 'change it's stripes' when Jesus is painted across the lips. One must understand the DIVIDE between that working and ourselves as Gods children.

Any other angle on these facts will lead to deception. In order to be in Truth there is a requirement to be TRUTHFUL about these matters.

We cannot say we have no sin and be IN TRUTH.

enjoy!

smaller

I am not going to do a back and forth argument over this. We have done it once in the past and it went nowhere. But for the sake of the topic at hand I will address a couple of things.

Your alternative is to claim sinless perfection of flesh and mind.

You completely do not understand who 'we' are. We are heart/soul, spirit/mind, and flesh/body. I never claimed that we were, or could, be sinless in mind or body. But, if God indeed takes out our old heart and puts in a new one, and lives there, it MUST be a sinless heart. However, a continuance of disobedience by following after the desires of the flesh and mind, can cause our new heart to become hardened. And then there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins. For we would put to death Jesus once again on the cross.

The fact you mistaken for truth is that you, I, am not our flesh with a soul. We are a soul, that lives in flesh. Therefore, because we live in fallen flesh that has not been redeemed as of yet, we do live in the midst of wickedness. But, we ourselves, are being renewed day by day in our minds, waiting for the redemption of our bodies. By making the statement that we always have sin, we are making the statement that we always continue in sin. The Bible is extremely clear that those who continue in sin WILL NOT INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE.

1Jo 1:5-7 "This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

The math is simple. 1(God living in me through the Spirit) + 1(my 'truthful' obedience to His leading) = 2(cleansing from ALL sin)

What part of ALL sin does Jesus not cleanse us from? Is this just a hypothetical statement? Certainly not. The light is truth. If we say we have (absolute) no sin, then we lie. But if we confess our sins(plural because they happen, not because they are in and of us) then He is faithful to cleanse us from all sin.

Sin can reign in our body. But not in us. Our body is but a shell of what we live in. The physical realm.

1Jo 2:1 "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

So again, was John speaking hypothetically? Did he not mean that he desired those to understand they were not under the slavery of sin anymore to continue in it? But that there was indeed a chance that they could sin, not that they would sin?

You make the assumption that we HAVE to sin. That is not what the entirety of the NT teaches. In fact, it teaches that the ones who do CONSTANTLY sin have never been born again, and they WILL NOT INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE. You put forth the idea that because one is tempted, they will then sin. There is a big, big difference between the two. If temptation equaled sin, then Christ sinned and our faith is in vain. You sir, border on heresy with your beliefs. But that is between you and the LORD. Not my judgment.

We cannot say that "we cannot sin", and be in truth. We can say "I choose not to sin" and be in truth.

Rom 6:14-18 "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."

The terminology used here is that at one time we were "bound" by sin. We could not get away from it. It was constantly IN us and AROUND us. This is what you are trying to teach. But now, we who once were far off in sin, were brought near by the blood of Christ. We were created again, a new heart was put in us, and we became FREED from the "bondage" of sin. We are no longer "bound" to it. That is why we are not to let it have reign, because we now have control over it. We choose to sin now. It is not an outcome of our life anymore. We make the choice to sin now.

As it relates to our topic? Our new heart gives us the ability to live righteously, soberly, holy, and worshipful lives before our God and Creator now. We have peace with Him now. We can enter into the Holy places by the Blood of the new covenant. We are no longer bound by the corruptness in our spiritual lives, spiritually we are a new creation. What God has made clean let no man call unclean. We can now fulfill His desires in us, allowing Him to work through us. The curse is GONE, Jesus has conquered death, hell, and the grave. There is now no more condemnation to those of us who walk according to the spirit, and not according to the flesh. When we walk according to the flesh we obey its desires and sin, but when we walk according to the spirit we will fulfill His desires and do not sin.

Therefore, let any man that thinks He stands complete in and of himself take a good look, because he is liable to fall. For the flesh that we live in wars with our spiritual selves. There is a constant battle between us. But we have no fear because perfect love casts out all fear. And His perfect love abides in our hearts so that we do not fear. But we have confidence before Him, and we know that in our moments of temptation He will not allow us to be tempted to the point that we CANNOT REFUSE the sin that awaits us to follow after. We have confidence that with the temptation THAT WILL COME, He has made a way for us to NOT SIN, by following the Spirits leading.

Mat 15:18-20 "But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person."

When we are given a new heart, we are no longer defiled by the old heart. That is the only way that God can come and make His home with us. The Spirit of God CANNOT live in a person with a wicked and deceitful heart. It is impossible.

 

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I never claimed that we were, or could, be sinless in mind or body. But, if God indeed takes out our old heart and puts in a new one, and lives there, it MUST be a sinless heart.

How many times will you vascillate with your new SINLESS HEART being LOST and then RE-INSERTED? The fact remains that we all have indwelling sin, period. Being born again does not 'change' that indwelling sin into anything else. The effort of SIN in thought, word and deed REMAINS in ALL BELIEVERS regardless of what they think they can TEMPORARILY can make themselves.

we live in fallen flesh that has not been redeemed as of yet, we do live in the midst of wickedness. -we are being renewed day by day in our minds, waiting for the redemption of our bodies.

Well, thank you for factual acknowledgements. The fact IS that we are all sown in CORRUPTION, WEAKNESS, DISHONOUR and in a NATURAL body. These facts NEVER disappear until we have OUR NEW BODIES that are 'not subject to' those very factual workings in this present life. (1 Cor. 15)

By making the statement that we always have sin, we are making the statement that we always continue in sin. The Bible is extremely clear that those who continue in sin WILL NOT INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE.

I will live with the facts of what we are IN. Sin transpires in THOUGHT. You know your own mind. No sense lying about what transpires therein and being made A LIAR by denial that it happens.

1Jo 1:5-7 "This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. -the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."

Believers do NOT have their sins counted against them. (2 Cor. 5:19) This does not mean that presence of indwelling sin has evacuated the premises or ceased it's workings. We can be cleansed. The devil who is implicated in EVERY SIN will not have that same measure. Both positions remain fully TRUE.

What part of ALL sin does Jesus not cleanse us from? Is this just a hypothetical statement? Certainly not. The light is truth. If we say we have (absolute) no sin, then we lie.

It's an interesting dilema isn't it Nate? We cannot say we have no SIN and be IN TRUTH. Yet to say WE HAVE SIN does bring us to an obvious conclusion of that presence as a PRESENT TENSE reality. My contention is and remains scriptural, that ALL SIN is in fact CONNECTED TO THE DEVIL by 1 John 3:8 and that working of the DEVIL is and remains CONDEMNED in ANY in whom it is found and it is FOUND IN ALL. Mankind is forgiven. Devils are NEVER forgiven and they NEVER CEASE to employ their efforts IN ANY. We are not to let them REIGN over us.

Sin can reign in our body.But not in us. Our body is but a shell of what we live in. The physical realm.

That is quite the gyration in logical fallacy Nate. In but not in doesn't compute.

-there was indeed a chance that they could sin, not that they would sin?

A chance to NOT sin? How about 100% failure of CHOICE to avoid SIN? All have in fact sinned and HAVE sin. There is no chance to NOT sin since ALL have.

Think of it this way. The DEVIL never ceases to STEAL WORD and to INSERT TEMPTATIONS in our MINDS. These are in fact SINS of the DEVIL that transpire nearly continually, and particularly IN believers. WHEN THOSE THOUGHTS COME is a simple question: IS THIS JUST ME? The instant you say NO, it is OF THE DEVIL, you have GAINED a victory in SEPARATION of yourself from THAT WORKING. But to say the working of the DEVIL ceases in these matters with believers is not and can not be TRUE. Believers have been moved to the FRONT LINES of these battles, not REMOVED from them.

You make the assumption that we HAVE to sin.

FALSE! I recognize the DIFFERENCE between my thoughts and the thoughts of the IMPOSITION/OPPOSITION party, at least most of the time. The fact is those TEMPTATION THOUGHTS ARE there and they ARE of the DEVIL who INSERTS them therein. I do NOT 'take ownership' of THOSE THOUGHTS. Paul found the same fact for himself when showing that when he desired to do good, that EVIL was in fact PRESENT with him. This IS the reality of our present life Nate. And there is no avoiding this fact.

You put forth the idea that because one is tempted, they will then sin.

Again FALSE!!! The TEMPTATION THOUGHT itself IS A SIN. So is THEFT OF WORD from the heart. These SINS DO HAPPEN in all and they are OF THE DEVIL and NOT of the person in whom such things happen. NO MAN can stop the insertion of TEMPTATIONs by their WILL. Any who say they do are LYING.

These are very REAL workings within ALL believers:

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

It is the workings that are described above WITHIN us that ARE NOT US.

If temptation equaled sin, then Christ sinned and our faith is in vain. You sir, border on heresy with your beliefs. But that is between you and the LORD. Not my judgment.

You can excuse the thoughts OF TEMPTATION of the TEMPTER any way you please. I wll not make such excuses for those workings. They are SINS period. Satan was COMMANDED not to TEMPT the LORD, yet DID IT ANYWAY. That TEMPTATION was SATAN'S SIN and it STILL IS everytime it happens.

IF God in Christ was NOT exempt from that working, then neither are we. And we should NOT EXPECT that DEVIL to change his operations just because the realities of these things are personally offensive or even worse, to LIE to ourselves in saying IT DOESN'T HAPPEN TO ME, ME, ME as that places us INTO A LIE and it's CHECKMATE again for SATAN. For the record I do NOT believe the TEMPTATIONS of Satan were WITHIN Him, but 'externally applied.' Satan had NOTHING 'in Him.' There is a BIG difference that the balance of us DON'T have and never will. God did NOT bind JESUS to DISOBEDIENCE.

We cannot say that "we cannot sin", and be in truth. We can say "I choose not to sin" and be in truth.

'Choice' will not sway the DEVIL one iota from what he does. When we say we HAVE sin, it is an acknowledgement of that PERPETUAL PRESENCE as in HAVE, not HAD. You can say "I choose" not to sin and you can even say THOUGHTS OF THE TEMPTER in you ARE NOT SIN. I will NOT agree. Temptation IS A SIN OF SATAN that happens IN mankind.

having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."

When we understand what the presence of sin does in relationship to the law that does not CEASE it's efforts, we also understand our perpetual NEED for the Grace of God to prevail continually with us and in us.

The Good News is that working is NOT US just as Paul declared. There is the FREEDOM and the SEPARATION. But if one does not even HAVE what they are DIVIDED from and FREED from, there is NO SEPARATION or DIVISION. There remains only CONFUSION in such carriers, thinking they are TOTALLY FREE, yet continuing IN SIN at a minimum IN THOUGHT form.

The terminology used here is that at one time we were "bound" by sin. We could not get away from it. It was constantly IN us and AROUND us. This is what you are trying to teach.

And I would appreciate it if you would not infer your imaginations as my statements. I will stick to the facts as scripture has presented same.

The fact is that God bound ALL MEN to disobedience. (Romans 11:32) THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS except God Himself in Jesus Christ. Our BINDING will CEASE when our NEW BODIES arrive. Until then WE WAIT in PATIENT ENDURANCE for the deliverance of DIVINE MERCY as a REALITY. IN the meantime, the WINEPRESS TIGHTENS.

But now, we who once were far off in sin, were brought near by the blood of Christ. We were created again, a new heart was put in us, and we became FREED from the "bondage" of sin. We are no longer "bound" to it. That is why we are not to let it have reign, because we now have control over it. We choose to sin now. It is not an outcome of our life anymore. We make the choice to sin now.

I'll do a little drawing for you:

[Gods child <<JESUS IN OUR MIDST>> flesh w/indwelling sin-of the devil.]

The ABOVE is ALL in one package called A BELIEVER.

There is a constant battle between us.

Everybody wants to BLAME THE FLESH, but Paul told us we DO NOT WRESTLE FLESH. Few can bring the realities of the OTHER PARTY to the table 'in' their flesh because it is OFFENSIVE to the PRIDE OF THE DEVIL that abides in ALL FLESH. I refuse to be made A LIAR by the TRUTHS of these scriptural matters within myself, even if that TRUTH means understanding and ADMITTING that the LIAR continually works within me, that is NOT me as Gods child.

enjoy!

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[Nathan]

Everybody wants to BLAME THE FLESH, but Paul told us we DO NOT WRESTLE FLESH. Few can bring the realities of the OTHER PARTY to the table 'in' their flesh because it is OFFENSIVE to the PRIDE OF THE DEVIL that abides in ALL FLESH. I refuse to be made A LIAR by the TRUTHS of these scriptural matters within myself, even if that TRUTH means understanding and ADMITTING that the LIAR continually works within me, that is NOT me as Gods child.

You do not understand what sin is.

Jam 1:13-15 "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

You have eliminated 'desire' out of the believers heart....you say "temptation -> sin" When it is temptation -> desire -> sin.

Ohh...wait a minute...thats right...the heart of man is where desire takes place. So...by you eliminating the "new heart" that God gives, and 'confining everyone' under the old desperately wicked heart, then you do not need to have "desire" placed into the equation because the old heart will sin continually.

But, if we take into account that the new heart desires the things of God, then we have to place it back into the equation again. So that, temptation comes, we then have a 'choice' to follow our God given desire, or our sinful flesh/mind desire. If we choose the flesh/mind desire then at that point we sin.

That is precisely why we are told to renew our 'minds'. When we allow that work of renewal to take place in our minds, then when temptation comes, our renewed mind agree's with out new heart that it is not good to follow after that sinful temptation. Therefore we do not sin because the new hearts desire is to follow Christ. Christian = Christ follower.

The desires of the flesh and unregenerate mind is what brings about temptation. It is not sin till the heart confirms it. Without a new heart, the old heart continually confirms the sinful desires of the flesh and mind. So if you find yourself continually in sin, then it means that it is because your heart has not been made new. The new heart desires the things of God.

Eph 4:17-27 "Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ!-- assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil."

One who seeks after God and is being drawn by His Spirit will understand these words. One who has not had a new heart placed in him will not.

Hbr 3:12-19 "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief."

I continue this because I care. Do not let the deceitfulness of sin blind your eyes from the true light. Satan appears as an Angel of light. As a minister of truth. Do not believe that without a new heart of flesh a man will be able to enter the kingdom of God. Please, consider this, understand this, Christ came to destroy the works of the devil. To destroy the power of sin. He conquered it all. We now have freedom from the slavery of sin. We do not have to walk in sin. We have a choice to obey and follow Him who calls us without fear. Please, if you hear His voice, respond in obedience.

 

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You do not understand what sin is.

Jam 1:13-15 "Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death."

You have eliminated 'desire' out of the believers heart....you say "temptation -> sin" When it is temptation -> desire -> sin.

Sin is assuredly OF THE DEVIL. This much is a fact. The math does get a little ugly from there when one admits to this fact. The working of the DEVIL in man will NOT allow the carriers to SPEAK THIS FACT truthfully in themselves. They will DENY to the END that THE DEVIL is 'involved' in THEIR SINS. It's a satanic coverup operation in such carriers.

And yes, a TEMPTATION is YOURS when it is inserted THEREIN, even when same is OF THE TEMPTER.

Satan was commanded to NOT tempt God, but by DOING SO it WAS a Sin of Satan. Temptation REMAINS a SIN of SATAN in ALL who have such insertions.

Ohh...wait a minute...thats right...the heart of man is where desire takes place. So...by you eliminating the "new heart" that God gives, and 'confining everyone' under the old desperately wicked heart, then you do not need to have "desire" placed into the equation because the old heart will sin continually.

We don't change what the Tempter does Nate. Sorry. And yes, that IS a sin that transpires IN the man that is NOT of the MAN in whom it transpires. The instant that beautiful woman becomes undressed in ones mind IT IS A SIN.

But, if we take into account that the new heart desires the things of God, then we have to place it back into the equation again. So that, temptation comes, we then have a 'choice' to follow our God given desire, or our sinful flesh/mind desire. If we choose the flesh/mind desire then at that point we sin.

Our hearts remain 'subject to' our present conditions. A subjected heart is not immune, but continually pierced and immersed within sufferings.

That is precisely why we are told to renew our 'minds'. When we allow that work of renewal to take place in our minds, then when temptation comes, our renewed mind agree's with out new heart that it is not good to follow after that sinful temptation. Therefore we do not sin because the new hearts desire is to follow Christ. Christian = Christ follower.

There are many things internal and external that will continue to place sufferings of various sorts in the hearts of us all. I am not immune from the sufferings in and around me in my 'heart.' Are you?

The desires of the flesh and unregenerate mind is what brings about temptation.

You saw what we wrestle with. You can blame whatever else you want but those things. It won't matter. Principalities, powers of darkness and spiritual wickedness are the matters we fight WITHIN regardless of our states of belief. Being a 'believer' guarantees that those things come to wrestle.

It is not sin till the heart confirms it. Without a new heart, the old heart continually confirms the sinful desires of the flesh and mind. So if you find yourself continually in sin, then it means that it is because your heart has not been made new. The new heart desires the things of God.

I'm sorry Nate. I do not excuse temptations. They are sins regardless and everyone has them, particularly believers. It's just a fact of our present life that I can not DENY happens AND more importantly FROM WHOM it comes.

Eph 4:17-27 "Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ!-- assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil."

One who seeks after God and is being drawn by His Spirit will understand these words. One who has not had a new heart placed in him will not.

The fact remains that our hearts remain in both temptations and suffering and 'subject to' these things. A subjected heart is what it is no matter the declarations of freedom. I can not say I have such freedom when I 'feel' the sufferings of others.

Hbr 3:12-19 "Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. As it is said, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief."

I continue this because I care. Do not let the deceitfulness of sin blind your eyes from the true light. Satan appears as an Angel of light. As a minister of truth. Do not believe that without a new heart of flesh a man will be able to enter the kingdom of God. Please, consider this, understand this, Christ came to destroy the works of the devil. To destroy the power of sin. He conquered it all. We now have freedom from the slavery of sin. We do not have to walk in sin. We have a choice to obey and follow Him who calls us without fear. Please, if you hear His voice, respond in obedience.

That destruction is YET TO COME Nate. In the meantime we are extracting the virtues of patience in waiting for our truest desires.

IF we are not in suffering in this present life, and claim immunity in the name of Jesus, we are only being hardened in heart to and by the realities of weakness, corruption and dishonour and the deceits of this present wicked world.

I can not party in joy while the world and its occupants turn to and fro in wickedness.

Can YOU?

enjoy!

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[Nathan]

Sin is assuredly OF THE DEVIL. This much is a fact. The math does get a little ugly from there when one admits to this fact. The working of the DEVIL in man will NOT allow the carriers to SPEAK THIS FACT truthfully in themselves. They will DENY to the END that THE DEVIL is 'involved' in THEIR SINS. It's a satanic coverup operation in such carriers.

Sorry guy. I do not like to see others without a new heart, but I do have immense Joy over the one He gave me. Peace that passes all understanding.

I am sorry guy, I will not excuse MY sin as coming from the devil. He is a tempter. But the simple fact is it is MY sin, not his that he 'inserts' into me. The cover up is that man can excuse his own sin by saying that it comes from Satan and he cannot 'help' but sin. I am not too worried. I believe that God has His hand on this very topic, and that those who are not hardening their hearts will hear the truth.

Psa 51:2-10 "Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin! For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. Behold, you delight in truth in the inward being, and you teach me wisdom in the secret heart. Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones that you have broken rejoice. Hide your face from my sins, and blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me."

If David can call sin his own, and not try to excuse it, and then be called a 'man after God's own heart'...then I will not excuse my sin on something that is unable to be avoided. It is my sin, not Satan's sin.

Tell me...where in the 51 Psalm does David ever acknowledge Satan? Where does he even allude to Satan being 'involved' in it?