A new Heart... Jeremiah 17:9

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Sorry guy. I do not like to see others without a new heart, but I do have immense Joy over the one He gave me. Peace that passes all understanding.

I am sorry guy, I will not excuse MY sin as coming from the devil. He is a tempter. But the simple fact is it is MY sin, not his that he 'inserts' into me.

Say what you want about your sin. This connection is not about to EVAPORATE for 'yours.'

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

The cover up is that man can excuse his own sin by saying that it comes from Satan and he cannot 'help' but sin. I am not too worried. I believe that God has His hand on this very topic, and that those who are not hardening their hearts will hear the truth.

No believer likes to make the connection above. When they can NOT it only shows their denial of the fact.

If David can call sin his own, and not try to excuse it, and then be called a 'man after God's own heart'...then I will not excuse my sin on something that is unable to be avoided. It is my sin, not Satan's sin.

1 Chronicles 21

1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

Tell me...where in the 51 Psalm does David ever acknowledge Satan? Where does he even allude to Satan being 'involved' in it?

NO SIN is disconnected from THE DEVIL.

s

 

[Nathan]

Say what you want about your sin. This connection is not about to EVAPORATE for 'yours.'

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil



No believer likes to make the connection above. When they can NOT it only shows their denial of the fact.


1 Chronicles 21

1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.



NO SIN is disconnected from THE DEVIL.

s

Connection and involvement are two separate things. That is why there are different words for them. I realize that all sin originates from Satan. No one said it did not. But responsibility lies on the one who partakes in it. You are trying to say that he is responsible for sin you commit. If that were the case then you have an excuse. If that were the case then you do not have to claim full responsibility. If you have no choice to sin, then that makes you not responsible for the actions of the sin. You cannot say that I did not want to lie, but I did anyways because I have to because Satan made me. You cannot say I had to lie because Satan is in me and there was no way I can tell the truth.

If the case is that sin is always present with you, then why should anyone listen to you? Seriously. If you will always sin, then how does someone know whether or not you are telling the truth?

What you are proposing is a paradox of; "I always lie. In fact; I am lying to you now".

What you are saying is, "I always sin. In fact, I am sining right now as I am trying to communicate this truth".

It just does not line up with Scripture. But, just because I am curious, why does one that believes they are responsible for their own sin, have their eyes blinded? What negative outcomes do you foresee as one having claimed responsibility for all sin they commit?

 

[Drew]

Paul was being very honest about these matters, as offensive as that may seem to you.

enjoy!

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Here is what you are saying smaller: if you believe that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian, you get this:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I, the Christian am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

What kind of Christian is sold in slavery to sin? Have you not read this:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

A new creation that is "sold in slavery to sin". Hmmmmm.

Sounds very much like the old creature, doesn't it?

And there's more. I really am scratching my head on this one - a Christian who is sold in slavery to sin? Excuse me?? Do you realize what you are asserting?

Do you not realize that the Christian is delivered from this state. How can I put this....? Oh, here, how about this:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

What do you know - the very state that you think is descriptive of the Christian, Paul describes as the state from which Jesus delivers.

Do you still stick with your belief that the Christian is sold in slavery to sin. If you do, you disagree with Paul, because this text from the end of chapter 7 shows that he believes Jesus delivers a person from such a state.

 

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Here is what you are saying smaller: if you believe that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian, you get this:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I, the Christian am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

What kind of Christian is sold in slavery to sin? Have you not read this:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Paul was abundantly clear about this as well Drew:

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

A new creation that is "sold in slavery to sin". Hmmmmm.

Sounds very much like the old creature, doesn't it?

Paul put that as a warning to serving the FLESH, which ANY believer can fall into. Even worse is a denial of FACT imo. The fact is it is NOT just a one way street to LA LA land for the entirety of believers who remain ATTACHED to a corruptible, weak, dishonourable and natural BODY and that EXISTS because of the presence of SIN therein.

Deny it til the cows come home. It doesn't matter to the facts.

And there's more. I really am scratching my head on this one - a Christian who is sold in slavery to sin? Excuse me?? Do you realize what you are asserting?

The only alternative Drew is sinless flesh and mind. You are welcome to make that claim. I am just as welcome to deny that claim on the basis of what Paul wrote of. See it however you please to reflect as to FACT.

Do you not realize that the Christian is delivered from this state. How can I put this....? Oh, here, how about this:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

What do you know - the very state that you think is descriptive of the Christian, Paul describes as the state from which Jesus delivers.

I can read what Paul said about the law of sin that applies to sin indwelling the flesh Drew.

Do you still stick with your belief that the Christian is sold in slavery to sin. If you do, you disagree with Paul, because this text from the end of chapter 7 shows that he believes Jesus delivers a person from such a state.

Those who are led of the Spirit are not led that direction. Any believer can deny the realities of those workings within their flesh any way they please. The path of the flesh remains a present tense reality of walking DEATH for ANY believer, particularly if they can't yield up the fruit of TRUTH.

A fruit of the Spirit is TRUTH. There is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are IN CHRIST. I have nothing to fear from THE TRUTH of these matters.

enjoy!

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Connection and involvement are two separate things.

Ah, but you see there is no way logical way to DISCONNECT the DEVIL from sins. It is a power-principality of DARKNESS that is not quantifiable or observable to FLESH EYES. Yet divulged and revealed IN and by The WORD.

That is why there are different words for them. I realize that all sin originates from Satan. No one said it did not. But responsibility lies on the one who partakes in it.

No one is about to make the 'devil' responsible. That operation does what it does regardless of 'responsibilities.' The will of the DEVIL is not 'our' will neither do we control a WILL that is not ours.

You are trying to say that he is responsible for sin you commit.

Show me how to DELINK this matter of SIN from THE DEVIL and you are home free. But you have already attested to the veracity of this fact above.

If that were the case then you have an excuse.

There is no 'excuse' for what the devil does Nate. None available or wanted. The devils works in ALL mankind remain under WRATH and CONDEMNATION awaiting FINAL EXECUTION.

If that were the case then you do not have to claim full responsibility. If you have no choice to sin, then that makes you not responsible for the actions of the sin. You cannot say that I did not want to lie, but I did anyways because I have to because Satan made me. You cannot say I had to lie because Satan is in me and there was no way I can tell the truth.

It is quite vastly more interesting with ALL the parties on the table isn't it? Not so easy to JUST BLAME AND ACCUSE mankind, is it?

You may even consider the DYNAMIC between GODS Perfection and Satan's resistance that DOES transpire quite APART from the mind of the 'host, the man.'

It is not just GOD dealing with US as believers, but also dealing with THAT PRESENCE. Look around you sometime and you will see this reality across the spectrum in various strifes, divisions and vile workings IN THE CHURCHES. Yet NONE will claim they are UNDER THE INFLUENCES of Satan. I can only say, sure, yeah, right...next.

If the case is that sin is always present with you, then why should anyone listen to you? Seriously. If you will always sin, then how does someone know whether or not you are telling the truth?

I expect that what is being stated is TRUE to the depictions of scripture. Let GOD BE TRUE in these matters AND EVERY MAN A LIAR. (ROMANS 3:4)

What you are proposing is a paradox of; "I always lie. In fact; I am lying to you now".

If you were to say that the presence of indwelling sin is active and of the DEVIL, I have no choice but to accept the TRUTH of your statement in light of the facts of scriptural disclosures, regardless. If you ever step onto this ground you will struggle with this reality. Otherwise ignorance remains bliss, as they say.

What you are saying is, "I always sin. In fact, I am sining right now as I am trying to communicate this truth".

The devil in MAN always sins and can do no other operations. YOU are not as a believer, IN and OF the flesh and the operations therein unless you fall victim to IT being ONLY YOU. There is a PATH OF DIVISION laid out in these matters.

We do in fact DEPART from iniquity when we see that it is NOT US as Gods children.

It just does not line up with Scripture. But, just because I am curious, why does one that believes they are responsible for their own sin, have their eyes blinded? What negative outcomes do you foresee as one having claimed responsibility for all sin they commit?

Picture Paul's statement of EVIL PRESENT with him when he wanted to do good.

Now, fast forward and see A POPE, any POPE making that same statement from the INFALLIBLE CHAIR OF ST. PETER and you will KNOW why NOBODY cares to 'fess up' to this matter. They'd be laughed right out of the group for being TRUTHFUL.

Hypocrites CAN NOT be truthful about these matters. It CAN'T happen.

Those who are not offended by Jesus and the Apostles disclosures in these matters are BLESSED and they get a front row seat to the operations of THE RESISTANCE MOVEMENT. God WILL show this resistance in ANY who care to be honest about it, not only within ourselves, but in others.

Our mutual difficulties in the various churches do not revolve around our 'doctrinal differences' but around our MUTUAL ADVERSARIES.

enjoy!

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[Nathan]

If you were to say that the presence of indwelling sin is active and of the DEVIL, I have no choice but to accept the TRUTH of your statement in light of the facts of scriptural disclosures, regardless. If you ever step onto this ground you will struggle with this reality. Otherwise ignorance remains bliss, as they say.

I could not have said it any better... Ignorance to the power of the indwelling Spirit to work in a person to bring about faith, and not sin is indeed bliss. Unfortunately, if it is bliss then it indicates a hardness of heart to the righteousness of God. Problem is that blisness is only temporary. Peace and joy are eternal.

 

[Elijah674]

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Paul was abundantly clear about this as well Drew:

Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


Paul put that as a warning to serving the FLESH, which ANY believer can fall into. Even worse is a denial of FACT imo. The fact is it is NOT just a one way street to LA LA land for the entirety of believers who remain ATTACHED to a corruptible, weak, dishonourable and natural BODY and that EXISTS because of the presence of SIN therein.

Deny it til the cows come home. It doesn't matter to the facts.



The only alternative Drew is sinless flesh and mind. You are welcome to make that claim. I am just as welcome to deny that claim on the basis of what Paul wrote of. See it however you please to reflect as to FACT.
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I can read what Paul said about the law of sin that applies to sin indwelling the flesh Drew.


Those who are led of the Spirit are not led that direction. Any believer can deny the realities of those workings within their flesh any way they please. The path of the flesh remains a present tense reality of walking DEATH for ANY believer, particularly if they can't yield up the fruit of TRUTH.

A fruit of the Spirit is TRUTH. There is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are IN CHRIST. I have nothing to fear from THE TRUTH of these matters.

enjoy!

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So what is this Inspiration saying?
Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

When the Mind has been recreated, which controls the other for you??

It sure seems like Paul told it clear in 1 Cor. 6:9-11 & verse 11 says, 'Such were some of you: but now ye are washed, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and the Spirit of our God.'

--Elijah

 

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So what is this Inspiration saying?
Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

When the Mind has been recreated, which controls the other for you??

--Elijah

Reflect how you will.

Obviously the other remains there to deal with in any case of reading.

s

 

[Drew]

About Romans 7: I really do not see how the person in Romans 7 can be a Christian and I am quite mystified that some posters think this is the case. I politely suggest that the following argument, already posted, is basically a slam-dunk against view that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian.

Now, if you do not agree, please engage the actaul argument I make and show where there is any error of logic or reasoning:

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.