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A new thing

golfjack,

You sound very defensive, but give no information to support your sketchy contentions.

If you are serious about this 'new thing', I would expect more from you than thinly veiled accusations.
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
...One new thing would be another Azuza street revival...

eh..golfjack, this is just my opinion. Another Azusa Street revival would be an old thing. It was a wonderful thing for its time. I have done some praying over the entire 'revive The Azusa revival' move. It happened, it was good, and it is over.

You were speaking of asking God to do a new thing. He is able to do something brand new, like has never happened before. As long as the Azusa folks are trying to make that happen again, they are doing it on their own strength and own power. The attempt is a work of the flesh, and that is why it is not working. I don't believe that God has said anything to anybody about wanting to repeat Azusa.

Those involved have prayed for another Azusa Street revival. Now they need to be still before the Lord, and listen to what He has to say. No doubt God is all for revival. He has a time and a place for it. What he needs is leadership that will follow him.

A couple of decades ago I was part of a Christian organization that was considered to be extremely radical for the things that they were doing. I had no doubt that God was in it. But there came a time in prayer that God said to me that the things that were happening were not because of the leadership, but in spite of it.

I have watched in this forum while the body of Christ is trying to convert the body of Christ. The hand is insisting that the foot be exactly like it is. Only when the body begins to function properly, will we be able to impact the world with a revival of any kind.

Amos 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

To be agreed: going in the same direction, at the same pace, at the same time.

The body of Christ is too busy going in different directions.

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Mark 16:15 ...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


It will only be when we decide that our priorities need to be the same as Gods, that revivals will begin to happen again. As long as we are playing "Who is the greatest in the kingdom", don't expect to see a lot of fruit growing on the tree.
 
Did I miss something?

I have never heard of Azuza Street Revival, and I have no clue what non-denomination Jack is part of...

Destiny wrote: Golfjack, you are still in the "non-denomination" that I came out of. A friend of mine left a few months ago because they were teaching the children how to communicate with angels during sunday school.

:o I have never heard of this either. Where is the Scripture found on such a teaching?

Destiny wrote: This is exactly what they did at our old church.
They got rid of the 'old' preaching methods that caused self examination and conviction of sin. (this is more serious than hymms, btw)
The results were of course disastrous, the church became just like the world in a short time. But hey, they are comfortable, tolerant, and no longer have to face reality, because there is no one left who will tell them what reality really is.


I don't understand...What were the old preaching methods that were done away with, and who was it that got rid of them?

I apologize for being dense, but I took the OP at face value.
Jack, I don't understand what the denomination of the posters has to do with you responding.(?)

I'm unclear about much of this, sorry. In light of my confusion, perhaps you should all disregard my first post in this thread. The Lord bless all of you.
 
GJack - I've attended many churches over the years, and I've seen most there is to see in whatever environment you care to name. I've seen the old, the new, traditional, non, the anointed, the not, those with faith, those without, the whole, the infirmed, the denominational, the non, pentecostal, charismatic, apostolic . . .

Really, there is nothing that surpises me about those who want to cling to the old and those who desire the new. So you want revival? OK - how do you think revival will come? Moreover, what is the church clinging to that hinders it? I'd really like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks
 
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Mutz. About old hymns. Some are not even Biblical. I have entered into many Baptist Churches and thought I was going to a funeral. Some go up to the throne of grace and I am just a poor old sinner that doesn't deserve healing or forgiveness. Do you get my drift? Oh by the way, Martin Luther and Charles Spurgeon believed that Jesus had to suffer spiritual death before we can be saved. At least they got that right. Now we have people like Chuck Smith who have written books about us word of Faith people, and after one checks out what he wrote, he doesn't know what he is talking about. For all who disagree with me, How does it feel to be critized?


May God bless, golfjack
 
lovely said:
Destiny wrote: Golfjack, you are still in the "non-denomination" that I came out of. A friend of mine left a few months ago because they were teaching the children how to communicate with angels during sunday school.

I have never heard of this either. Where is the Scripture found on such a teaching?
I see something similar to what some of the charasmatics are chasing in 2 Thess., it's called 'lying signs and wonders'.
This is the type of "nondenominational" church we left. They completely left the word in order to experience the 'supernatural'.
I'm not talking about healings and deliverance or true biblical miracles; I'm talking about angelic visitations, laughing fits, gold dust, feathers falling from the ceiling, getting 'drunk' in the spirit, and stuff like that.

Destiny wrote: This is exactly what they did at our old church.
They got rid of the 'old' preaching methods that caused self examination and conviction of sin. (this is more serious than hymms, btw)
The results were of course disastrous, the church became just like the world in a short time. But hey, they are comfortable, tolerant, and no longer have to face reality, because there is no one left who will tell them what reality really is.

I don't understand...What were the old preaching methods that were done away with, and who was it that got rid of them?
They stopped preaching repentance of sin or anything having to do with being born again. They only taught things that tickled the ears.
This happened at our old charasmatic church, and from what I 'know' based on my own research after leaving the movement, this has happened at most of the charasmatic churches in America.

I'm unclear about much of this, sorry. In light of my confusion, perhaps you should all disregard my first post in this thread. The Lord bless all of you.
It's ok, lovely ...most people don't realize the depth of deception within the charasmatic movement, it is usually confused as pentecostal but theres a big difference....I wouldn't hesitate to say most of it is a cult now.
 
destiny said:
It's ok, lovely ...most people don't realize the depth of deception within the charasmatic movement, it is usually confused as pentecostal but theres a big difference....I wouldn't hesitate to say most of it is a cult now.

There is so much ''new teaching'' that goes on these days, thats its a scary thing. Take for exapmple this ''NEW TEACHING''

Here is a part of what Wikipedia has to say about this...

'Little gods' Controversy

Word of Faith Ministers have been accused of teaching that believers are "little gods". Kenneth Hagin wrote that God "made us in the same class of being that He is Himself," and that the believer is "called Christ" because "that's who we are, we're Christ!"[5] According to Hagin, by being "born again", the believer becomes "as much an incarnation as Jesus of Nazareth".[6] Kenneth Copeland says Adam was "not a little like God ... not almost like God ... not subordinate to God even",[7] and has told believers that "You don't have a God in you. You are one."[8] A common theme in Word-Faith preaching is that God created man as "an exact duplication of God's kind."[9]

The promulgation of this teaching is one of the most contentious doctrines with the movement's critics, who consider it heresy. Hank Hanegraaff contends the 'little gods' doctrine is on a par with the teaching of the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and Jim Jones.[10] In response, Faith defenders have claimed the teaching is simply underscoring the biblical view of the believer's "true identity in Christ", and is no more heretical than similar-sounding claims by C.S. Lewis and the Eastern Orthodox Church.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith
 
:-D Apostasy runs amuck through the churches today just as Jesus said it would.He asked would he find any one of faith left when he returns.
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Mutz. About old hymns. Some are not even Biblical. I have entered into many Baptist Churches and thought I was going to a funeral. Some go up to the throne of grace and I am just a poor old sinner that doesn't deserve healing or forgiveness. Do you get my drift? Oh by the way, Martin Luther and Charles Spurgeon believed that Jesus had to suffer spiritual death before we can be saved. At least they got that right. Now we have people like Chuck Smith who have written books about us word of Faith people, and after one checks out what he wrote, he doesn't know what he is talking about. For all who disagree with me, How does it feel to be critized?


May God bless, golfjack

GolfJ - One thing I've found is that pride often gets in the way of folks who believe they have the right theology. They look down on those who sing songs with words that are not theologically sound (in their opinion) and ask, "how can God move in there?" I've been guilty of it myself but I now realise that the key to our walk with the Lord is faith. When we walk in faith and humility before Him then we are in the right place. And if this is the case, knowing that He will provide all we need, no matter where we 'fellowship' or with whatever denomination we are aligned with, is sufficient. The problem arises when someone who is walking in faith is coerced into responding to the intellect rather than the spirit.
 
Gabby,

Thanks for the link, I wasn't aware of this history of the Pentecostal denomination.

Destiny,

I have never been to a Charismatic church. I can not understand things like feathers falling, (?) or teaching little ones to talk to angels, and other such things. I have never had any of those things happen while in worship, nor has the Holy Spirit ever led me to pray for such "signs and wonders." Concerning miracles, I see them daily as I walk with God. I love Him for all His works, and wonders. The Heavens tell us of who He is, and what He is able to do, and all the layers of Truth that exists in every day common things blesses my heart from moment to moment. And our answered prayers, and directed walk...well, that's amazing. It seems to me that feathers, and angel language lessons, fall short of the beauty that enriches us daily that comes directly into our hearts by the Holy Spirit who shares with us the deep things of God, and teaches us, and conforms us to the image of Christ. I don't know enough about the Charismatic church to openly say anything against them, but I will say that to chase after such things (if that is what they are doing) is not the focus of God's children, and is NOT revival. Genuine revival is from God alone, and is born in the heart of a single believer lit up brightly, and it spreads across the world because of the Holy Spirit...it's the miracle in the heart of a lost soul, and another, and another, and another...till many are born of God, and our family grows. It is all of us learning to be of one accord in Christ, and walking in obedience as a church, and representing God in our good works as a force for Him...it is the bearing of much fruit individually, and corporately, and the witness of God to a lost world, and to all of Heaven, for His glory.

Jack,

I do not mean to offend you, but I must say that I strongly disagree with you, and perhaps you may think me guilty of the false humility that you mentioned because of that disagreement, I don't know, but I must say it none the less. I am not a god (like God), and I do not believe that Scripture teaches that I am a co-god, but rather a co-heir with Christ. I am a daughter by adoption (in no way deserving that adoption), of the most High, but I am His creation, and have no power of my own, outside of what He has given me. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me, and though I fail, I strive to walk worthy because of His love, and my responsibility to be about His business. I am thankful. I do not need to exalt myself to the status of a god to know the measure of the blessing that Christ's atonement has provided for me, or the authority with which I walk as His daughter...in fact, it would definitely have to be the other direction, because I had my eyes opened by Him alone. We are to esteem others before ourselves, and never be presumptuous about who God says we are...this does lead to the Great Temptation. I was a broken vessel, but now I am being restored, purified, made strong, and made more useful by God every day, but I have not become the Potter, or even an assistant potter, nor will I ever. I don't really know what else to say about that, except that I disagree with the article on this point, and I would walk out on any preacher who attempted to equate me with God, or even skirted such a thing, because it is walking as close to the boundary as they can, if not past it, and it does not honor God. It may also cause some young believers to stumble, and walk in self-righteousness. I think it also lays the foundation for claiming wealth and riches as some sort of entitlement here. I don't agree with that either. Those verses you mentioned are still referring to man as human, and do not equate man with God, or even as "gods" in a supernatural sense, but rather in a sense of dominion on earth, or rulers, and heirs as sons.

Psalm 82 in context shows that those in powers of position, "gods", are still subject to God, and then the next reference show that though we are the sons of God, humans, "gods" we will still die, fall, and will be judged...there is nothing in context that says we are gods, LIKE GOD, but rather gods like rulers here. This speaks to authority, or dominion, not being gods, like God.

John 10, is literally Christ quoting the above Scripture in the face of the Pharisees who were angry that He called Himself the Son of God...HE was saying that if men, who are placed in authority of this earth, men who are human can be called "gods", then how much more does Christ, whom the Father sent into the World, the Word, have the right to call Himself the Son of God. The Pharisees were keen enough to know that man was not to make himself equal with God.

The power we receive as the sons of God, is that to do His work through His Holy Spirit...it is nothing of our own, or that we deserve, as we have been grafted in to an inheritance that is not ours by birth.

Perhaps we agree to a point, I don't know, but I would never use "gods" in the context of power, but rather authority...and as sons, and as His creation, our power is from Him alone. I actually wouldn't throw the word around too much in these modern times because people would only think of it in terms of supernatural, and not as a ruling position. There is still nothing to feel exalted about, though I do agree we are to walk worthy, and boldy come before His throne of grace...this is the power of the Holy Spirit in us, and love in us being perfected, and bringing confidence. Anyway, the Lord bless you, and I am sorry that I do not agree with the bold usage of this word, nor the hint that we are something greater than what we are...humans, subject to our Creator, and in need of redemption. Again, the Lord bless you.
 
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Lovely, Thanks for your responce. I don't know why some people group us in one pot. I no nothing about gold dust dropping from heaven and anything like that. Rhema Church has a prison ministry, and gold did drop while they were praying, but My mentor said this was from the devil, and not from God.

You know, we have these heresy hunters out there, but they distort others teachings. In other words, don't give you the full testimony. I wonder why they do that? Is it because their ministries have dwindled down a bit? I don't know. Like Paul Harvey, let's hear the rest of the story.

Some comments about the god thing. Personally, I have never said I was god. Lovely, what it is all about is we know that we are an equal footing with God because of who we are in Christ. We receive our anointing from Jesus. In other words, we have been empowered by the Holy Spirit to heal the sick, cast out demons in the Name of Jesus. I see, you read the article, and why don't you investigate further about Word of faith teachings? I think you will be surprised.



May God bless, golfjack
 
Jack
I have colored your writings in Red.
I have out my writings in blue.

You are gods!

Word of faith preachers who teach that Christians are gods have gotten plenty of flak for it. Obviously, they are not teaching that we are God. Indeed, any Christian who claims to be God needs deliverance! Neither are they teaching that we are gods in the sense of an entity deserving worship.
So, what do they mean when they say: "You are gods!"? Let's begin with the creation of man.

Man was made a little lower than the angels
Psalms 8:5 (KJV)
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Some Bible translations, like the NASB, RSV and ASV, translate the verse as "a little lower than God". This is probably because the Hebrew word here for "angels" is actually "elohiym", not the usual "malak".
We know that "elohiym" means "God" or "Gods" (refering to a triune God since "elohiym" is plural, "-iym" being the Hebrew plural suffix).
Also, out of the 2,000 plus times "elohiym" appears in the KJV Bible, it is translated "angels" only once in Psalms 8:5.
But I believe that it is more accurate to translate "elohiym" here as "angels", simply because the Bible itself, or the Holy Spirit, translates it as "angels" in Hebrews 2:7,9. Also, according to Strong's, "elohiym" can also mean "angels".
Hebrews 2:7,9
7 You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
The Greek word here for angels is "aggelos", which always means "angel" or "messenger". It never means "God".


The first sense of "gods" -- dominion over the whole earth
Although man was created a little lower than the angels, the dominion and authority given to him made him a god!
The Psalmist goes on to say:
Psalms 8:6-8
6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet:
7 all flocks and herds, and the beasts of the field,
8 the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas."
The Psalmist is talking about Adam, the first man created directly by God. We see a similar account in Genesis.
Genesis 1:28,29
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
Read the verses, especially the parts in red, slowly and think about them. Imagine God saying these things to you.
It is not difficult to see that Adam was a god over the earth. He was crowned with glory and honour, and appointed ruler over God's creation.
God put everything under Adam's feet. He was given authority to fill the earth and even to subdue it. He was given authority to rule over every living creature. He was given every plant and tree for food.
God, right from the beginning, wanted man to dominate the earth and all living things in it. Man was supposed to be god over the earth. But man sinned and that authority was handed over to Satan, who is now the "god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

You are gods
One may now agree that God wants man to have dominion and authority over the earth. But does that mean that we can go so far as to call ourselves "gods"?
Believe it or not, the Bible does call us gods!
Psalms 82:6
6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
The Hebrew word here for "gods" is "elohiym", and it is translated "gods" both here and in the New Testament (John 10:34).
Are Christians "sons of the Most High" or children of God? Yes!
John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

So, it follows that we are "gods" according to Psalms 82:6 and John 1:12.




Jack John 1:12 says we became ‘’children of God, not little gods. In verse 1:12 Jesus offers Himself to all mankind again and to those who receive Him, He gives the right or authority to become children of God, it does not say little gods like the mormons teach….

Now lets look at the context of Ps 82:6
82 A PSALM OF ASAPH.
1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods ( This word gods should have been translated “rulers†the NASB has it right….) he holds judgment: It is God Himself. He has called a special session of the divine council in order to reprove the rulers and judges of the earth.

2 “ How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked? Here God is rebuking the rulers and judges..
3 Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;
maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.†In verse 3 and 4 God is reminding them that They should be the helpers of all who are poor and needy….

5 They have neither knowledge nor understanding,
they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
Despite all of Gods warnings, there seems to be no hope of improvement. As if in an aside, He sighs that they fail to act with knowledge and understanding. Since they themselves are groping about in darkness, there is scant hope of their helping others who need direction. And as a result of their failure to act righteously and wisely, the foundations of society are unstable. Law and order have all but vanished.



6 I said, “You are gods,
sons of the Most High, all of you;
7 nevertheless, like men you shall die,
and fall like any prince.â€Â
The fact that God calls them gods (ʾělohîm) and children of the Most High does not grant them immunity from judgment. Go back to the first 5 verses… These men who were rulers; have made themselves gods…God, is saying to them;''So you want to play God ha :-? OK, You will be subject to the same treatment as other men, and fall like a prince…..

Jesus quoted verse six in one of His confrontations with His ‘’enemies’’
John 10:32–38. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?†33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.†34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God cameâ€â€and Scripture cannot be broken 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.â€Â


In John They had just accused Him of blaspheming because He claimed equality with God. Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are godsâ€Â’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?â€Â

To the average mind, the argument might not seem clear or convincing, but it obviously had massive power on His hearers. They understood that Jesus was arguing from the lesser to the greater. In Psalm 82, rulers and judges are addressed by God as gods. Actually they are not divine, but because of their position as God’s ministers, they are dignified with the name of gods. Why, because these rulers and judges ''made themselves'' out to be gods…in the same way many of the WOF preachers do today...:-? Their greatest distinction is that the word of God came to them, that is, they were officially ordained by God as higher powers concerned with government and justice (Rom. 13:1).
The Jews understood perfectly that He was claiming equality with God, and they sought to apprehend Him but He eluded them (John 10:39).


8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
for you shall inherit all the nation


Jack
So far this is far as I have gotten. I am not sure i really need to go any further than this.
 
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Jg. I think we pretty much agree about this. You may interpret it a bit different, but that's OK. What I am trying to say is people like Hank Hannegraff have distorted what my mentor has taught me. He and others have left certain important words out of a book like the Zoe kind of life that say we are Christ, but it if you read all the words, you will see In Christ. Pretty deceiving HUh? Whether they do it on purpose, I don't know. To me, these heresy hunters are disgusting and way out of line. The early heresy hunters like let's say Origion fought to keep out Gnostics. Also, I ccan respond to Chuck Smith's book about positive confessions and healing.


May God bless, golfjack
 
Lovely
I just saw your post. I wish I had seen it before I posted mine. It would have saved me some time. I am happy to see that we basically saw the same thing in those scriptures.
God bless
 
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