A question about Charismaticism.

[Lance_Iguana]

the urging to speak in an unknown tounge out loud and not be interpreted is merely the bad habits of charismatic friends
if its not an interpretation of that unkown tounge then its tween man and God, when its to be interpretated then yes i believe that the urging to speak is very strong but the person that must open the mouth is never ever forced to say it.

Maybe that urge to speak is a complete feeling of awe, but we can't completely comprehend that said awe or feeling of said emotion, so we just output?

 

[Lance_Iguana]

dont need to, we do that ourselves:
the holocaust
the war on terrror in response to 9-11.
korea , vietnam. etc

But what for those who heal and did everything they could to end pain and suffering and did amazing things or asked the questions that we needed? Like Gahndi, FDR, Martin Luther King Jr., Siddhartha, or even Aristotle?

Do these men and to even women not show our greatest empathy and wanting to be good, even defying what we think we ourselves can do?

 

[jasoncran]

Maybe that urge to speak is a complete feeling of awe, but we can't completely comprehend that said awe or feeling of said emotion, so we just output?

not awe at all. i have done that gift tounges once, it was an urge followed by hearing but not understanding what to say. no emotions just that you need to speak up.

in my church often (it has been a while) i would know when that gift would operate and when,lately its been when the elder that does it alot speaks i will feel that God has something to say and the pastor will intepret that.

with the prayer language that is used only for edification of the indivual praying that isnt an urge but an exercising what is already there,ie i can speak that without a strong urge and i used to do so for hours.

 

[theLords]

But what for those who heal and did everything they could to end pain and suffering and did amazing things or asked the questions that we needed? Like Gahndi, FDR, Martin Luther King Jr., Siddhartha, or even Aristotle?

Do these men and to even women not show our greatest empathy and wanting to be good, even defying what we think we ourselves can do?

I think this boils down to a, which came first the Chicken or the Egg, type question. You make a good point, but if we were created by God, then our empathy is His gift to us. If God is man made then empathy is purely a human emotion.

I'm not sure about the others on your list but MLK, Jr. was a Christian man, all the good he did was a direct result of his relationship with God.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

What I was trying to get at is, that possibly, its not God that the person is against, but the logic or inconceivable nature God has. Meaning, the God the evangelist is trying to convey, may be flawed but the evangelist might not see it based on a lack of comprehension or innocent ignorance about a subject they are conveying.

Elaborate...

An example is that I'm a biology student and know great details about Evolution, when I hear an evangelist try and explain evolution is a way that I know is seriously wrong, I have a hard time taking them at a serious level when they talk about God.

Another would be from when I was evangelized to by a person who didn't know some basic scripture, or that Jesus possibly lived a few hundred years after the Buddha and the Greek Masters of Philosophy.

That is when I start wondering if possibly, maybe its not God that is wrong, but the vehicle ( religion) that we use to define him/her/it? Maybe we have yet to even comprehend exactly what it is that is our governance and that all our fighting is over misconceptions we cling to by our own pride of not wanting to say we might just be wrong?

Just thoughts. Thanks guys, you are giving me a mental work out and marathon.

 

[Oats]

But what for those who heal and did everything they could to end pain and suffering and did amazing things or asked the questions that we needed? Like Gahndi, FDR, Martin Luther King Jr., Siddhartha, or even Aristotle?

Do these men and to even women not show our greatest empathy and wanting to be good, even defying what we think we ourselves can do?

no answer?

 

[Lance_Iguana]

not awe at all. i have done that gift tounges once, it was an urge followed by hearing but not understanding what to say. no emotions just that you need to speak up.

in my church often (it has been a while) i would know when that gift would operate and when,lately its been when the elder that does it alot speaks i will feel that God has something to say and the pastor will intepret that.

with the prayer language that is used only for edification of the indivual praying that isnt an urge but an exercising what is already there,ie i can speak that without a strong urge and i used to do so for hours.

I've had the same kind of feeling, but it was when I contemplated the meaning behind "Om", and saw massive pictures of part of the universe.


The idea that I am a part of something so grand and beautiful, yet so ugly and destructive left so speechless and felt so small.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

I think this boils down to a, which came first the Chicken or the Egg, type question. You make a good point, but if we were created by God, then our empathy is His gift to us. If God is man made then empathy is purely a human emotion.

I'm not sure about the others on your list but MLK, Jr. was a Christian man, all the good he did was a direct result of his relationship with God.

I'm actually of the idea that God was created simultaneously as everything that is, and there is no real creation or end, so both are eternal and feed off each other, because without each other, both would cease to exist.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

no answer?

Sorry. I tried answering your questions, but I felt I already did in some ways to others asked questions. I'm trying to keep up with them all, but I get swamped sometimes.

Sorry.

 

[theLords]

I'm actually of the idea that God was created simultaneously as everything that is, and there is no real creation or end, so both are eternal and feed off each other, because without each other, both would cease to exist.

So you believe that God needs man to exist? and that God is a created being? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Lance_Iguana]

So you believe that God needs man to exist? and that God is a created being? Is that what you're saying?

I'm saying that God is beyond any concept we could think of, and our universe has always existed and both feed off each other creating an equilibrium, and our minds have created the separation between the 2, and in a way created both ourselves and God.

 

[theLords]

I'm saying that God is beyond any concept we could think of, and our universe has always existed and both feed off each other creating an equilibrium, and our minds have created the separation between the 2, and in a way created both ourselves and God.

Okay, fair enough, but if the Charismatics believe in the God of the Holy Bible, then we are looking at two different gods from two different perspectives, so they each invalidate the other.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Okay, fair enough, but if the Charismatics believe in the God of the Holy Bible, then we are looking at two different gods from two different perspectives, so they each invalidate the other.

Yeah, sorry I went on a little brain dump there. My mind tends to do that when I go into philosophy mode. :p

 

[theLords]

Maybe that urge to speak is a complete feeling of awe, but we can't completely comprehend that said awe or feeling of said emotion, so we just output?

One problem here is that while tongues is a heavenly language, at times it can be earthly languages as well. So it's more than an emotional feeling of awe and emotion.

This thread is fun Lance

 

[theLords]

Yeah, sorry I went on a little brain dump there. My mind tends to do that when I go into philosophy mode. :p

That's okay, I love it! I only caught that because I tend to look at things mathematically (coincidentally, I hate math) and that component totally unbalanced my equation! Hehehe :D

 

[Lance_Iguana]

One problem here is that while tongues is a heavenly language, at times it can be earthly languages as well. So it's more than an emotional feeling of awe and emotion.

This thread is fun Lance

You are basically seeing my train of thought and how I am as a person in this thread.

This is my mind in a nutshell. Curious and on a straddling line of mindless brain dumps and instances of intelligent noisy clicks. XD

 

[theLords]

You are basically seeing my train of thought and how I am as a person in this thread.

This is my mind in a nutshell. Curious and on a straddling line of mindless brain dumps and instances of intelligent noisy clicks. XD

Well, may the Lord Jesus bless your neurons, friend ;)

 

[jasoncran]

thats ok, lance knows how i get when i type too fast.

 

[PouringRain]

Mujahid, thanks for sharing your observations. I skimmed through and did not see that anyone directly commented to you, so I will.

Now, since I am also a member of a sufi tarriqa, I am familiar with the spiritual science, and I took with me an interesting observation - for the sufis who resemble charismatics, their goal is not the manifestation of "The Giftrs" as charismatics would say, but to move beyond that and obey the law to the fullest and control oneself when one is bestowed "A Gift" - for the sufis, "The Holy Spirit" if you will, bombards them with the tajaliyat - but their goal is to be a calm guiding vessle for such tajalliyat, not to writhe on the floor or speak in tongues, but to calmly become one with God - so that every step they take is in the name of God, and every word they speak is the word of God.

Some of your observation is probably due to the type of church you attended, which sounds as though it was quite demonstrative. There are many pentecostal churches that you would observe individuals being calm and controlled, as you describe the sufi.

You comment that it seems to you that for those who speak in tongues the goal is the speaking, or the gift, rather than to move beyond that and seek to become one with God. Again, I think part of this could be the congregation you were in. There are churches where the emphasis is on the "gift", and sometimes in churches it is quite uncontrollable and disorderly. It is no wonder in the NT that Paul discussed proper and improper ways to use the gift in the church. The gift is not intended to cause confusion but to edify the body, edify the individual, serve as a sign, etc. But other churches do not place the emphasis on the tongues, but rather you would be seeing that there is a moving beyond that to a oneness with God. Let me explain further, because part of the difference is also in the difference between Islam and Christianity. You have to remember that in Christianity, unlike Islam, there is the idea of "God in us", and people not only invite Jesus in their heart, but they ask the Holy spirit to fill them to overflowing. The manifestation of tongues is sometimes viewed as a result of the Holy Spirit filling man to overflowing, so that it pours out of him. So, while the sufi is seeking a oneness with God, the Christian already views God as being within. When the tongue is used it is often believed to be the Holy Spirit interceeding on man's behalf and helping him communicate God's words with man or man's words with God. So, the tongue being the goal, is really more than it seems.... the focus is really not on the tongue, but on the Holy Spirit.

Since there are such great differences in beliefs regarding tongues and the use of tongues, it can be difficult to generalize-- which is what I am trying to do, give a more generalized explanation. But certainly, you will find great differences from church to church, and from individual to individual.

The charismatics seem to stop with the "gift" - and then do nothing to move past this gift - their goal seems to be symptom and not the Source.

I should have left this with your previous quote, since I answered it above. Just to say it again, the goal is really with having the source (the holy spirit) inside and speaking on behalf of man and God.

But yes, in some churches there is too much emphasis on the gift. Sad, imo.

I got this impression talking to various people I saw who spoke in tongues during the service - they seemed to feel as if the speaking in tongues was the highest level - that nothing laid beyond that. Where as when you speak to sufis who go into simalr states during gatherings, they apologize and vow to control this state next time.

In some churches it is seen as the "highest" level. Some churches even view it as essential for salvation.

I wonder if jason or pard or someone else could maybe shed some light on that for me since I did not really go too in depth with the people I spoke to.

Are the tongues or interpretation of tongues the highest point, or stoping point, or do you guys teach that one can be given the "gift" without losing control - like a person who has moved to higher station and is able to prophesise or speak in tongues at will?

As far as speaking at will vs. losing control. If you look at research, individuals often report being not in control during tongues, but studies have actually shown that they are able to control it. Depending on what church you attend you may see it very controlled. It sounds as though the one you attended was not. I have been in churches where people have stopped on command. For example, I was in a church that will remain unnamed, and there were thousands in the auditorium, and near the end of the praise and worship time when people were speaking in tongues, one woman began to very audibly call out a "message" in tongues. As soon as she barely began, the pastor pointed at her and commanded her to stop. She stopped instantly, even though I am sure her eyes were probably closed and she could not see him pointing at her. The fact that her tongue stopped instantly is one demonstration of the ability of an individual to stop the tongue at will. (As a side comment, pastors will stop a tongue is 1) it is out of order or 2) it is not from God........... now you will ask how they know it is not from God. )

Research on the trance hypothesis of tongues has also not found support.



I will say that charismatic churches are often quite demonstrative, and what you describe is certainly not outside the norm, but it is also not representative of the whole.




Lance, I hope we were not going too far off.... if so, maybe one of the mods can split the thread.

 

[jasoncran]

this will sound circular on when the gift of toungues is to be used.The pastor and others that the lord will tell will know when that gift is about to happen or is happening.