A question about premarital sex

[just_some_guy]

Let’s keep this short and to the point:
I was raised a Christian and taught that premarital sex is a sin.
I am now at a time in my life where I want sex, but don't want to sin

So basically, I am now going to assume that tradition, social standard, misstranslations and time have changed what is taught as "right". BUT also give more knowledgeable Christians the chance to ... shall we say 'convert me back'

As a heads up for all of you who are reading this, I will NOT make this easy for you in any way. Every point you put forward I will do my very best to shoot down / find a loop whole / or simply reinterpret. So to save everyone’s time, please think carefully about what points you put forward.



So far, from looking up other forums and web pages, these are some of the arguments // counter arguments:

• the "ten commandments" argument

The Ten Commandments refer to 'adultery', which is between a married person and another person. But this argument is invalid if both the people having sex are unmarried
​

• any passage with linking the word "fortification" with sinning

This is a mistranslation of the Greek word "porneia" as "fornication".
Fornication in English means 'singles sex' (more or less)
BUT the Greek word "porneia" means "sexual immorality". And some English translations of the bible acknowledge this and use the words "sexual immoral" in place of "fortification".
This site: http://www.libchrist.com/bible/premaritalsex.htmlgoes into detail about this particular point

also, if your counter argument is "fornication is sexually immoral", then I want proof. bible passages, dictionary definition and the like
​

• STD's, unwanted babies and other non-bible reasons

Put simply, I am not after any reply along these lines. Making sensible decisions in life is a different topic to whether or not premarital sex is a sin

<li style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt; line-height: normal; mso-list: l3 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt;" class="MsoNormal">the "one flesh" argument ​

'One flesh' refers to the combining of DNA to create a baby. Such an argument is invalid if you wear a condom, don't have penetrative sex, or consider abortion to be ok (witch I do)
although it is completely off topic, AND I gave two other examples of how this argument is invalid, I will now also give a brief explanation as to why I am ok with Abortion:

pro-Abortion argument: I have been told many-a-time that abortion is murder, but by definition you can only murder living creatures. and according to the bible, "The life of a creature is in its blood". so, as long as the abortion takes play Before the embryo makes its own blood (21-22 days into pregnancy), it is NOT murder
counter argument: before this time the embryo is DIRECTLY supplied by the womans blood
counter counter argument: a tumor is also direcly supplied by the hosts blood, and has its own uniqe DNA, and is growing. yet Im sure you have no objections cutting it out ^_^
​

NOTE: this is NOT an abortion thread. this should be the last we hear of it.
​

Signed Just_Some_Guy

 

[Eventide]

Love gives... Lust takes...

Let’s keep this short and to the point:
I was raised a Christian and taught that premarital sex is a sin.
I am now at a time in my life where I want sex, but don't want to sin

Perfectly normal imo.. the flesh always 'wants' to satisfy its desires.. although there is also a conviction perhaps and a desire to not sin against God or even our brothers and sisters in Christ etc.

I think that if you can recognize where the 'want' to have sex comes from versus the 'want' to not sin.. you'll have your answer.

IMO it's the age old battle of the flesh against the Spirit.. and a brother once told me.. LOVE gives, LUST takes. It's not an easy thing to put off the deeds of the flesh and to put on Christ.. the battle is lifelong.. but that's what the flesh deisres.. to satisfy itself.. and in your heart and mind I think you should know the difference between the two desires.

The LORD knows full well our needs and our wants.. and I believe that He wants to give you the desires of your heart in a Godly way.. not in a worldly or lustful way.

 

[Former Christian]

Just Some Guy

Eventide assumes you're a Christian. Here's another way to look at it.

The Greek word translated fornication is mistranslated as you say. But not in the way you think. The Greek root word means to buy or to sell. Thus the word is referring to prostitution. Buying and selling sex.

You say you were raised a Christian. Apparently, it didn’t take or you wouldn’t be asking the question. You didn’t once mention what God himself might think. Since you obviously don’t believe in the existence of God, what are you afraid of? Why should “committing a sin” bother you? The Bible is clear as to what sin is and what sin is not. The last portion of the Bible was written a couple of millennia ago. Why would you think it would change when you’re not looking? People’s interpretations of the Bible mean nothing. And certainly shouldn’t mean anything to you.

Seems to me you’ve already made up your mind. You’re just trying to kill a conscience that's telling you what you want to do is wrong. If you don’t want to believe having sex is wrong, then have at it. Nothing we can do about it. Certainly not in a culture that says you’re right to do whatever you want as far as sex is concerned. The only one who can stop you is God. And the God of the Bible is known to let people go to the limit so that they have no excuse when judgment hits. And the judgment of that God can be severe.

But just so you know, the God of the Bible also claims to have sent his own Son to deal with what you want to do. To die on your behalf. And all you have to do is believe what that God says and be baptized into his Son, Jesus Christ. So that in Christ you can have your mind renewed and be conformed as much as is possible in this life to Christ, the only one perfect person who has walked on the face of the earth since before the fall of Adam. How reasonable is that to you?

According to your post, you have one problem. And because of that problem, I certainly wouldn’t turn my back on you. You can’t feel. Never once did you mention affection for the person you would have sex with. Or how the other person might feel about it. Or how your “Christian” parents might feel about what you want to do. You only mentioned your own urging to have sex. Even some animals can feel more than you can. I pity the woman who ends up with you. But take care. You may end up with a woman who feels less than you do. A women who has no conscience and who is smarter than you’ll ever be and will constantly manipulate you to her own designs. And if she can’t manipulate you, she isn’t afraid to dump you and find someone she can. Just because you can’t see beyond the limits of your own dick certainly doesn’t mean I would have any pity on you. And I hope no one else on this forum who wants to get all gushy and “love” you to death, literally, gives you the pity you don’t deserve.

Now would be a good time to see if God does truly exist. And to find out who that God is. If you are a believer in the modern cult of science, and in the idea of evolutionism that is it’s God, then I don’t see how you could think that God exists and that you have anything to worry about as far as sin is concerned. Because the sin you’re referring to and what it means is only in relation to the God of the Bible. If you don’t agree with what that God says about sin, or if you don’t believe he’s there to disagree with, then you only have your particular culture to tell you what’s right and wrong, or worse, you only have yourself. And if you only have yourself you’re all alone in the world, no matter how much sex you have.

No one knows what it’s like
To be the bad man
To be the sad man
Behind blue eyes.

No one knows what it’s like
To be hated
To be fated
To telling only lies.

But my dreams
They aren’t as empty
As my conscience seems to be.

I have hours
Only lonely
My love is vengeance
That’s never free.

No one knows
What it’s like
To feel
These feelings
Like I do
And I blame you!

(from “Behind Blue Eyes” by the Who)

Well, you won’t have me to blame. Maybe you can find someone else to blame for doing what you’re determined to do.

FC

 

[Eventide]

Just Some Guy

Eventide assumes you're a Christian.

I would add that even a non Christian can experience conviction from the Holy Spirit.. that's what He was sent into the world to do.. convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

Other than that, your commentary is excellent imo.. a little blunt perhaps (lol, I like that) although very good reading.

 

[Former Christian]

Eventide

I agree with you about the conviction of the Spirit, which could be God's grace acting here. Which ever is being resisted, conscience or Spirit, it doesn't matter. The outcome is the same. The post just sounded like salve to me. And you know me. Sometimes my answers are more according to my understanding of common sense, than according to a Scripture I can quote.

FC

 

[Classik]

I was raised a Christian and taught that premarital sex is a sin.
I am now at a time in my life where I want sex, but don't want to sin

Sex outside marriage is an offence to God - it is still a sin. We are living in a world where people match upon the word of God - and carry out any intention they feel is justified. (I am not referring to you here)

The Ten Commandments refer to 'adultery', which is between a married person and another person. But this argument is invalid if both the people having sex are unmarried

any passage with linking the word "fortification" with sinning

Is it necessarily a missinterpretation? The instruction was not just given to married people - it was give to both married people and teenagers etc.
I believe teenage sex in those days was almost impossible. They saw sex as 'adult thing' - and for the fear of breaking the laws and receiving punishments (usual stonning one to death) they tried to abstain from the 'adult stuff'. It was to the singles a wicked and cruel act to go into it. The married ones were the ones particularly into the sins of adultery and infidelity (most likely)
So, the thought of having sex outside wedlock was abominably to them. And the actual case was rare.
That could be the reason it was as if the instruction was given to fathers and mothers. Despite the rarity, the instruction was for all.

also, if your counter argument is "fornication is sexually immoral", then I want proof. bible passages, dictionary definition and the like

Do not judge by mere dictionary definitions. Words do change Meaning!
Several years ago people avoided the use of the four-letter word. It was a taboo word. Today people use it to refer to different things. The shock associated with the use of the word is almost gone.

Fornication is a sin. Cases of it could be found in the bible. Fornication, from your judgement, is premarital sex. Right?
If so, see:
:..................:............:..................:............:...........
Mattew1 NKJV:
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly.
20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
:..................:............:..................:............:...........
*Was Mary married before her pregnancy? The answer is NO!
*By your judgement of premarital sex is this fornication (assuming it wasn't of the Spirit)?
The answer is YES!
* Was that a sin (assuming it wasn't of the Holy Spirit)?
The answer is YES! See verse 19
See Genesis 19 NKJV:

4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house.
5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally. â€

6 So Lot went out to them through the doorway, shut the door behind him,
7 and said, “Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly!
8 See now, I have two daughters who have not known a man; please, let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you wish; only do nothing to these men, since this is the reason they have come under the shadow of my roof.â€

9 And they said, “Stand back!†Then they said, “This one came in to stay here, and he keeps acting as a judge; now we will deal worse with you than with them.†So they pressed hard against the man Lot, and came near to break down the door.
10 But the men reached out their hands and pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door.
11 And they struck the men who were at the doorway of the house with blindness, both small and great, so that they became weary trying to find the door.

###########################
Which People were involved? There were adults and children and teenagers etc, both married and unmarried.

*Another issue of fornication - and immorality? YES!

* How?
They came to lie with the angels whom they had thought were mere men
* Was that another case of fornication?
Yes - both married and unmarried men and women were there. (Both fornication and adultery). see Verse 4
*Was it a sin?
Yes! That Was the reason the Holy angels attacked them. (otherwise they could have not bothered, mainly about the teenagers)
Why was Lot's daughters virgins while the others were not? See Verse 6. It was a corrupt nations! Does that not suggest to you that fornication or adultery was a sin? It was! Premarital sex was forbidden - and was a sin.

I have been told many-a-time that abortion is murder, but by definition you can only murder living creatures. and according to the bible, "The life of a creature is in its blood". so, as long as the abortion takes play Before the embryo makes its own blood (21-22 days into pregnancy), it is NOT murder

counter argument: before this time the embryo is DIRECTLY supplied by the womans blood
counter counter argument: a tumor is also direcly supplied by the hosts blood, and has its own uniqe DNA, and is growing. yet Im sure you have no objections cutting it out

I do not want to go off topic here. Every stage of Abortion is a sin. It is also murder. Abortion could be necessary when the life of the mother is endangered by a risky pregnancy. Here save the life of the mother - rather than losing both

you said:

so, as long as the abortion takes play Before the embryo makes its own blood (21-22 days into pregnancy), it is NOT murder

This is funny. Bring out the content of a womb at this stage and let it remain outside for some hours. Does it die? Was it originally having life?
Could People have sex and deliver Tumour as a baby? Maybe I did not understand what you were trying to say here

 

[Classik]

Another interesting encounter is that of the Samaritan woman John4 NKJV

16 Jesus said to her, Go, call your husband, and come here.

17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband.

Jesus said to her, You have well said, I have no husband,
18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.

19 The woman said to Him, Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.
20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.

21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

25 The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming (who is called Christ). When He comes, He will tell us all things.

26 Jesus said to her, I who speak to you am He.

The Whitened Harvest

################################
here is Another case. She had no husbands. Was it adultery or fornication? Did she sin? What did Christ say about her? Read the entire chapter.

 

[th1b.taylor]

While the truth is seldom used today, it is invaluable in this case that rears itś ugly head in every church and Church. there simply is no such thing, in the eye of God as extra marital sex! When a male and a female couple (enter into a sexual relationship) they are, in the eye of God, married! Read the first three chapters of Genesis and then go a few thousand years forward to the marriage of Isaac and to the marriages of Jacob. They went into the lass and, in the marriage bed, became One Flesh!

From the position you have chosen to take here, I know this will rub you and almost everyone that read this, absolutely, raw, it has every time I have taught or preached this truth but the truth is just that, itś the truth! So the real question is, ¨How many girls do you want to be responsible for their sins?¨ Every young Maiden you couple with becomes you flesh and you take the responsibility, as God´s Priest in the marriage, for all of her future sin.

My advise... wait!

 

[Former Christian]

Th1b.taylor

Interesting. Perhaps right according to the way it reads. As ritualistic as the Jews were, there is no recorded wedding ritual in the whole Bible so far as I know. New Testament included. Only wedding receptions as the one Jesus went to and turned water into wine.

Yes, very interesting indeed.

Surely you must realize that a whole lot of married Christians are living in adultery and don’t even know it by your view.

What say you?

FC

 

[elijah23]

Premarital sex is a sin:

[20] And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man.
[21] For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery,
[22] coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
[23] All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man." Mark 7:20-24 RSV

But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matt 5:28 RSV

Jesus was not misquoted.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Th1b.taylor

Interesting. Perhaps right according to the way it reads. As ritualistic as the Jews were, there is no recorded wedding ritual in the whole Bible so far as I know. New Testament included. Only wedding receptions as the one Jesus went to and turned water into wine.

Yes, very interesting indeed.

Surely you must realize that a whole lot of married Christians are living in adultery and don’t even know it by your view.

What say you?

FC

Well, I like your comments and I say you are correct. And most refuse to fall on their face and simply repent! Most responses on the web, in class and in church are very inflammatory to the point of splitting Church Families and piting them against one another, causing them all to sin further.

Today, there are far to few that are willing to plant their feet, solidly on the truth, and let God handle the fall out.

 

[Classik]

Premarital sex is a sin:

[20] And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man.
[21] For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery,
[22] coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.
[23] All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man." Mark 7:20-14 RSV

But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matt 5:28 RSV

Jesus was not misquoted.

Elijah Elijah ! Simple and short. Thanks!
Gold medal

 

[Rhea]

Excellent point by Former:

According to your post, you have one problem. And because of that problem, I certainly wouldn’t turn my back on you. You can’t feel. Never once did you mention affection for the person you would have sex with. Or how the other person might feel about it. [...] You only mentioned your own urging to have sex. Even some animals can feel more than you can. I pity the woman who ends up with you.
[...]

If you don’t agree with what that God says about sin, or if you don’t believe he’s there to disagree with, then you only have your particular culture to tell you what’s right and wrong, or worse, you only have yourself. And if you only have yourself you’re all alone in the world, no matter how much sex you have.

This is an excellent point. Even from a secular perspective, sex involves two humans and both of their interpretations and feelings must be considered for it to be a Good Thing.

I suggest you stay away from partners until it becomes natural to think of it as a meeting of equals. That way you are neither sinning nor being a jerk.

 

[felix]

I was raised a Christian and taught that premarital sex is a sin. I am now at a time in my life where I want sex, but don't want to sin

You can have concubines (who you don't marry) or have multiple wives (polygamy). All these are perfectly 'legal' according to scriptures.

Please check your country law if these are allowed for you, to escape the country's jurisdiction. You can engage in all these things and hide from your country authorities which is still not a sin because, scripture does not declare having concubines or polygamy as a sin.

Hope my wife doesn't check this post :o

 

[Levi]

Corinthians 6

"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."

Sums it up for a Christian really.

Unfortunately Felix's argument for what constitutes immorality is countered by Jesus' teaching about adultery where He said that looking at a woman other than your wife in a manor of potential sex partner is adultery.

This means that if she is not your wife then she is not a moral sex partner. This would include concubines.

I'm not sure about the polygamy part but the law of the land is valid and scripture teaches conformity to it.

Jesus stated that in the beginning God create one man and one woman when He was teaching about marriage divorce and faithfulness.

One wife is hard enough, why on earth anyone would want more I cannot fathom??

 

[Rhea]

looking at a woman other than your wife in a manor of potential sex partner is adultery.

Can't resist - is that a fancy bordello?

One wife is hard enough, why on earth anyone would want more I cannot fathom??

What? Having a spouse is hard? I'm sorry to hear that. My anniversary is today and I was just telling a friend that my darling husband, my very best friend, has made me happy every single week of our marriage (676 weeks, so far). I could not imagine ever wanting a day without him. I would cheerfully have two of him.

 

[felix]

Corinthians 6

"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body. 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."

Sums it up for a Christian really.

Unfortunately Felix's argument for what constitutes immorality is countered by Jesus' teaching about adultery where He said that looking at a woman other than your wife in a manor of potential sex partner is adultery.

This means that if she is not your wife then she is not a moral sex partner. This would include concubines.

Law regarding concubines:
(Lev 19:20) 'Whoever lies carnally with a woman who [is] betrothed to a man as a concubine, and who has not at all been redeemed nor given her freedom, for this there shall be scourging; [but] they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

Adultery is when you desire someone else's wife not your own. A concubine is also like a wife but also your slave or servant.

I'm not sure about the polygamy part but the law of the land is valid and scripture teaches conformity to it.

Jesus stated that in the beginning God create one man and one woman when He was teaching about marriage divorce and faithfulness.

One wife is hard enough, why on earth anyone would want more I cannot fathom??

(2Sam 12:8) I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

When was this said to David by God? God is saying to David, He would have given more wives.

Note: I am not advocating polygamy or concubines etc. I am merely saying, it's not a sin according to scriptures.

 

[Levi]

Law regarding concubines:
(Lev 19:20) 'Whoever lies carnally with a woman who [is] betrothed to a man as a concubine, and who has not at all been redeemed nor given her freedom, for this there shall be scourging; [but] they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.

That's in regards to a woman who has been betrothed to another man but who does not have the statis of 'free'. Under the Hebrew culture this meant she was basicllay a slave, therefore they would not be put to death on the following provisions:

a: The woman would have had to comply as a slave to the man

b: The man would not have been put to death because he had slept with a sub class or slave. (if she was a free woman the penalty would have been death)

Adultery is when you desire someone else's wife not your own. A concubine is also like a wife but also your slave or servant.

Yes that is true, that is one form of adultery but not the only one.

Clearly you have missed the point of what Jesus was saying! He never mentioned other men's wives He was talking about you looking at another woman with the view to divorcing your existing wife so that you may marry this new one you are eying up or lusting after to make your own.

That was the whole point of Jesus' expose on the seventh commandment. The question was about 'divorce'

(2Sam 12:8) I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.

When was this said to David by God? God is saying to David, He would have given more wives.

Note: I am not advocating polygamy or concubines etc. I am merely saying, it's not a sin according to scriptures.

It's not strictly sin I agree, but it is not recommended in view of the teachings of Christ (Paul backs this up a couple of times) and if it goes against the established laws of the land then technically speaking it is sin.

"“Haven’t you read,†he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.â€

In the beginning God only made one man and one woman.

 

[Levi]

Can't resist - is that a fancy bordello?

Prostitution puts me off something chronic. Its gross, physically and mentally damaging behavior that turns a person into a heartless shell.

And living in a country where prostitution is legal I find it a joke that women would think I would part with my hard earned money to become a victim of their lewd and unfaithful behaviors.

Yuuuuuuuuck! There are hardly any good woman left here. Most New Zealand males are traveling overseas looking for faithful wives now.

What? Having a spouse is hard? I'm sorry to hear that. My anniversary is today and I was just telling a friend that my darling husband, my very best friend, has made me happy every single week of our marriage (676 weeks, so far). I could not imagine ever wanting a day without him. I would cheerfully have two of him.

Its a lot harder than doing what you like when you like I can tell you that much!

Hmmm think I'll pack up and hit the tropics shortly, I'll spend all my money and come back broke !

 

[BobbyKing]

Hi

When God restricts a certain action, and in this case premarital sex, it is to:

1. To protect us from harm
2. To bless us

If you truly want sex outside marriage and if you want it badly enough, you will definitely find a way in, even to the point of justifying your action against God's word. You see, it is not about what God says, rather it is about your choice.

Why don't you pray and ask Him? He will speak to you but you must be willing to listen.