A Question For Jewish Believers in Christ

[Walpole]

One objection I hear from Jews is that Jesus did not fulfill all of the prophecies when He came. Therefore, he can't be the Messiah. But Christians believe these remaining prophecies will be fulfilled at the Second Coming.

So why do Jews rule out the possibility of a Second Coming? There seem to be two versions of the Messiah: 1) the suffering servant, and 2) the conquering king. The Christian belief in the Second Coming solves those apparent contradictions, but Jews reject that belief. Why?

This is not the objection Jews have to Jesus. The reason they reject Jesus is because Jews believe God would not, could not, and should not become man.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The reason they reject Jesus is because Jews believe God would not, could not, and should not become man.

Hello Walpole.
It doesn't matter, because Jesus never taught that men should worship him. He did teach that all men should worship as he demonstrated.
Also, both OT and NT prophesy how the Messiah will be worshipped by all mankind, but there are no scriptures which say when the Messiah first appears, he will demand worship as God.
In fact, properly interpreted the NT writers clearly show how the Messiah would be rejected by unbelievers.
There are Jewish people who can see how Jesus perfectly taught the Torah and believe in him for that reason. I've even heard of rabbis' who've read the NT and have no problem with anything he said.

 

[Walpole]

Hello Walpole.
It doesn't matter, because Jesus never taught that men should worship him. He did teach that all men should worship as he demonstrated.
Also, both OT and NT prophesy how the Messiah will be worshipped by all mankind, but there are no scriptures which say when the Messiah first appears, he will demand worship as God.
In fact, properly interpreted the NT writers clearly show how the Messiah would be rejected by unbelievers.
There are Jewish people who can see how Jesus perfectly taught the Torah and believe in him for that reason. I've even heard of rabbis' who've read the NT and have no problem with anything he said.

Matthew 14:33 ---> Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Matthew 14:33 ---> Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

They worshipped him as they came to know him better. He never discouraged them from worshipping him, but he never commanded them to worship him.

Jesus directed all worship to God.....as an example of how sinners should worship God.

For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 1Pet.2:19

Because of our thoughts toward God, endue suffering wrongfully.....??? Who does that?

when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 1Pet.2:20

Doing well, suffering for it patiently.....is acceptable with God??? Who does that?

here unto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21

His steps,

Who did no sin,neither was guile found in his mouth.....when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1Pet.2:22-23

Suffering wronfully...for doing right...is sin.
Sin being committed against anyone for their faith in Jesus. So when an angel says,

See thou do it not Rev.19:10

I'm sure Jesus didn't forbid men from worshipping him, cause he's not only The Sacrifice. He's The Judge,

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Walpole,
I've posted this somewhere before, but never got a reply, but I would like your view on it,

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Isa.6:1

Isaiah sees God in a vision, but John says,

That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. Jn.12:38-41

Why did John mesh Isaiahs' vision of God with the "suffering servant"?

 

[Walpole]

They worshipped him as they came to know him better. He never discouraged them from worshipping him, but he never commanded them to worship him.

Jesus directed all worship to God.....as an example of how sinners should worship God.

For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. 1Pet.2:19

Because of our thoughts toward God, endue suffering wrongfully.....??? Who does that?

when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 1Pet.2:20

Doing well, suffering for it patiently.....is acceptable with God??? Who does that?

here unto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21

His steps,

Who did no sin,neither was guile found in his mouth.....when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1Pet.2:22-23

Suffering wronfully...for doing right...is sin.
Sin being committed against anyone for their faith in Jesus. So when an angel says,

See thou do it not Rev.19:10

I'm sure Jesus didn't forbid men from worshipping him, cause he's not only The Sacrifice. He's The Judge,

FYI, Christians believe Jesus is God.

 

[Walpole]

Walpole,
I've posted this somewhere before, but never got a reply, but I would like your view on it,

In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Isa.6:1

Isaiah sees God in a vision, but John says,

That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. Jn.12:38-41

Why did John mesh Isaiahs' vision of God with the "suffering servant"?

John is demonstrating that Christ is the Logos.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

FYI, Christians believe Jesus is God.

I know that my friend, but you said Jews don believe Jesus is God and therefore don't believe he's the Messiah.
The first disciples who believed in him were all Jews, but they didn't know him that well.

Personally, I believe John referred to God as the suffering servant in Isaiahs' vision because Isaiah saw the mangled body of Jesus. I think Isaiah saw the restraint Jesus showed in not having sinners put to death.

 

[Walpole]

I know that my friend, but you said Jews don believe Jesus is God and therefore don't believe he's the Messiah.
The first disciples who believed in him were all Jews, but they didn't know him that well.

Personally, I believe John referred to God as the suffering servant in Isaiahs' vision because Isaiah saw the mangled body of Jesus. I think Isaiah saw the restraint Jesus showed in not having sinners put to death.

Right, the first disciples and converts were Jews. But when Jews convert to Christianity (including the first disciples), they cease practicing Judaism and instead embrace and practice Christianity (i.e. they believe in Jesus Christ).

 

[journeymanisnothing]

John is demonstrating that Christ is the Logos.

And the Logos says Gof gives sinners who despise his Logos time to rethink our position. We should thank him for never changing,

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Mal.3:6

 

[Walpole]

And the Logos says Gof gives sinners who despise his Logos time to rethink our position. We should thank him for never changing,

For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Mal.3:6

I am not following the point you are tying to make.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I am not following the point you are tying to make.

The point is, the written logos of God was transgressed when the Logos in flesh was sinned against.
You can see how God patiently endured sin against himself by his earthly example in Christ, right?

 

[Walpole]

The point is, the written logos of God was transgressed when the Logos in flesh was sinned against.
You can see how God patiently endured sin against himself by his earthly example in Christ, right?

I still do not understand your point.

Christ is the Logos. The Logos is not written. The Logos is a Person.

"In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." - John 1:1-5

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Christ is the Logos. The Logos is not written. The Logos is a Person.

Logos also means written or spoken word,

Jesus said some rabbis' made "the word (logos) of God of none effect through your tradition." Mk.7:13

Jesus was referring to the law of Moses as the logos of God.

"In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." - John 1:1-5

The light of Gods' Word says be like our Father. The Messiah showed us his Father,

he that hath seen me hath seen the Father Jn.14:9

Those in darkness cannot comprehend the love God showed to people filled with hate.

 

[Corn Pop]

Alot of Jews dont acturally know that the new convenant gospel was written by Jews, so thats one reason many dont take it seriously.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Alot of Jews dont acturally know that the new convenant gospel was written by Jews, so thats one reason many dont take it seriously.

When I was growing up, I didn't know it was written by Jews either. I thought Christianity was a different religion from what "the Jews" believe. One Jewish guy told me Jews believe many different things within Judaism, like different denominations within Christianity. He also acknowledged that the 1st Christians were all Jews and wrote the NT. He said all sects of Judaism consider the NT writers heretic Jews.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

I still do not understand your point.

Christ is the Logos. The Logos is not written. The Logos is a Person.

"In the beginning was the Word (Logos), and the Word (Logos) was with God, and the Word (Logos) was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." - John 1:1-5

Yes, Christ the anointing (teaching) Holy Spirit of God dwelt in the Son of man, Jesus . Jesus did his will of the Holy Father the one with power to raise the dead. Yoked with the father the promised ministry of two, came into effect .

Two is the witness our unseen God has spoke The faith (power of God) needed to believe God . .comes from God. . . not from the imaginations of a hard heart.

 

[Beit Avraham]

Zeal for the Son not zeal for Jewish customs and traditions is what Paul taught.

Paul taught that gentiles did not need to become Jewish (to halachically convert) in order to be a part of the body of Messiah, but he did not have an issue with the customs and traditions. Those traditions and customs are not salvific, but that is a different issue.

 

[Randy]

Paul taught that gentiles did not need to become Jewish (to halachically convert) in order to be a part of the body of Messiah, but he did not have an issue with the customs and traditions. Those traditions and customs are not salvific, but that is a different issue.

A "shadow" of things to come. Paul taught the importance is found through faith in the Son. Christ crucified is what he preached. Otherwise he would have not received 40 lashes minus 1 5 times from the so called Jews. And Paul preached the same gospel messages to the Jews as he did to the gentiles. Most Jews were offended. Many gentiles received his message with joy.

 

[Beit Avraham]

A "shadow" of things to come. Paul taught the importance is found through faith in the Son. Christ crucified is what he preached. Otherwise he would have not received 40 lashes minus 1 5 times from the so called Jews. And Paul preached the same gospel messages to the Jews as he did to the gentiles. Most Jews were offended. Many gentiles received his message with joy.

None of that says that Paul taught that the believers should not practice Jewish custom and traditions, on the contrary, history shows that the believers were keeping most custom and traditions for quite some time. The importance of the Gospel is the Son, the literal Word of God, but that still does not mean that keeping the Law as believers is not of value. Just because we don't have to do something does not mean we should not.