A Question For Jewish Believers in Christ

[Randy]

None of that says that Paul taught that the believers should not practice Jewish custom and traditions, on the contrary, history shows that the believers were keeping most custom and traditions for quite some time. The importance of the Gospel is the Son, the literal Word of God, but that still does not mean that keeping the Law as believers is not of value. Just because we don't have to do something does not mean we should not.

If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

7But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in a Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

Acts 15 settled that question.

 

[Beit Avraham]

Everything is garbage compared to Yeshua. But that still does not mean it is not good to practice the parts of the Law that may be edifying to us. Acts 15 settled what is required, not what may be good. I am required to not kill people, but it is good for me to be nice and kind to them. Doing the next level is a good thing and pleasing to oneself and we hope to G-d.

Further, Acts 15 definitely seems to indicate that there is more than just the simple requirement to refrain from certain acts such as from eating "strangled and from blood". This indicates a requirement to eat kosher slaughtered animals so as to not eat blood - not just to refrain from drinking blood as it would read on a superficial level.

The Didache expounds on these teachings for us and indicates that while not required, it is good to take on any part of the Law that helps us on our path. Yeshua taught us to follow teachings and celebrated the feasts. Zechariah indicates we will all be celebrating Sukkot in the future.

 

[Randy]

Everything is garbage compared to Yeshua. But that still does not mean it is not good to practice the parts of the Law that may be edifying to us. Acts 15 settled what is required, not what may be good. I am required to not kill people, but it is good for me to be nice and kind to them. Doing the next level is a good thing and pleasing to oneself and we hope to G-d.

Further, Acts 15 definitely seems to indicate that there is more than just the simple requirement to refrain from certain acts such as from eating "strangled and from blood". This indicates a requirement to eat kosher slaughtered animals so as to not eat blood - not just to refrain from drinking blood as it would read on a superficial level.

The Didache expounds on these teachings for us and indicates that while not required, it is good to take on any part of the Law that helps us on our path. Yeshua taught us to follow teachings and celebrated the feasts. Zechariah indicates we will all be celebrating Sukkot in the future.

If you can show Paul taught people to keep even Jewish customs please show so.

Instead he was clear in the gospels message he preached and never backed down from "grace"

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

I'm not kosher.
I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.

 

[Beit Avraham]

I don't have to show that Paul said it was OK to keep the customs. Paul argues against the Law being salvific, not against choosing to keep some of it, he doesn't even address it. Paul was fighting against the heresy that the new gentile believers HAD to convert to Judaism and keep the whole Law.

You are missing the point, the point is that Grace alone is sufficient, and we should not judge one another on how we keep the customs. However, keeping them is good as they were also things commanded by G-d. The point is that while the "Jewish" festivals are not sinful to skip, they were the ONLY festivals kept by followers of Yeshua until new ones were created or usurped. So while it may not be a sin to choose to not celebrate them, it certainly is good. We know that Jesus did not come to take away the Law, but to fulfill it. But I will add some verses regardless.

• 1 John 2:3-5: "By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments".
• Romans 7:12: "The law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good".
• Proverbs 28:4: "Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law strive against them".
• John 14:15: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments".

Gentile followers don't have to keep the whole of the Law, but at the same time we can keep it as a benefit to ourselves and our walk with Yeshua. Again, let me make it clear, we ONLY receive salvation because of the work of Yeshua on the cross - not the keeping of any Law.

 

[Randy]

I don't have to show that Paul said it was OK to keep the customs. Paul argues against the Law being salvific, not against choosing to keep some of it, he doesn't even address it. Paul was fighting against the heresy that the new gentile believers HAD to convert to Judaism and keep the whole Law.

You are missing the point, the point is that Grace alone is sufficient, and we should not judge one another on how we keep the customs. However, keeping them is good as they were also things commanded by G-d. The point is that while the "Jewish" festivals are not sinful to skip, they were the ONLY festivals kept by followers of Yeshua until new ones were created or usurped. So while it may not be a sin to choose to not celebrate them, it certainly is good. We know that Jesus did not come to take away the Law, but to fulfill it. But I will add some verses regardless.

• 1 John 2:3-5: "By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments".
• Romans 7:12: "The law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good".
• Proverbs 28:4: "Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law strive against them".
• John 14:15: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments".

Gentile followers don't have to keep the whole of the Law, but at the same time we can keep it as a benefit to ourselves and our walk with Yeshua. Again, let me make it clear, we ONLY receive salvation because of the work of Yeshua on the cross - not the keeping of any Law.

Keeping customs is not forbidden. Neither were gentiles "encouraged" to take up Jewish customs and observe Jewish religious holidays/observances. Nor be circumcised or be kosher. The Theocracy of Israel was disbanded. We serve God in the new way of the Spirit and not the old way of the written code.



We are not free to sin.
Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

One objection I hear from Jews is that Jesus did not fulfill all of the prophecies when He came. Therefore, he can't be the Messiah. But Christians believe these remaining prophecies will be fulfilled at the Second Coming.

So why do Jews rule out the possibility of a Second Coming? There seem to be two versions of the Messiah: 1) the suffering servant, and 2) the conquering king. The Christian belief in the Second Coming solves those apparent contradictions, but Jews reject that belief. Why?

The word "messiah" in Hebrew and its equivalent "christos" in Greek was NOT a unique title for Jesus the Savior, it simply means "annointed one", any king or high priest, even gentile king could be such a messiah, it's kind of like "inaugurated one" as in presidential inauguration ceremony. Therefore, this cultural understanding had effectively precluded the "suffering servant" version, the Messiah must be the conquering king. "Suffering servant", on the other hand, was applied onto the Roman-occupied nation of Israel, so essentially the concept of "suffering servant", son of Joseph, was spiritualized. This was the common expectation of the Messiah among the Jews, including the twelve disciples. The grassroot peasants hoped he could liberate them from the Romans like God delivered them from Egypt, whereas the elites perceived him as a threat to their throne, neither side really understood the Scripture and took it seriously, they only thought of their Messiah in a military and political sense.

Ironically, many modern churches have a reversed version of this kind of spiritualization - the Messiah only came in the first century as a suffering servant who died for the sins of mankind, the second coming had already taken place in 70 AD/CE, or it's the spiritual ascension into "higher consciousness", or we the church are the messiah we've been waiting for.

 

[gordon777]

Gentile followers don't have to keep the whole of the Law, but at the same time we can keep it as a benefit to ourselves and our walk with Yeshua. Again, let me make it clear, we ONLY receive salvation because of the work of Yeshua on the cross - not the keeping of any Law.

The first to remember about the law is that it is not of faith.




Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.





The law brings us to faith.

When faith is come, ( that which is perfect, as the law could never make anyone perfect, even though holy just and good, because it lacked faith, plus it had to fulfilled by Jesus Christ, to show what the law of faith is.) we are no longer under a school master ( which is what the law is, now the ONE MASTER IS CHRIST.)

Now being a man, you put away foolish things, ( when all are brothers) you are learned of your Father, and we see the things of God are always misunderstood by all without the Spirit yet. ( see the Apostles misunderstandings until given the Spirit.)



Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.



The point of the law for all is this, it has no benefit compared to faith, also if the law ( which it does) confuses faith in Jesus Christ, as Apostle Paul has shared lots of troubles made for Jewish believers with it, then the law cant be chosen rather than the simplicity that is in only the faith of Jesus Christ, and laying HIs life down for us replaced the law, became a curse for us, which before that, killed all who trusted in it. ( cursed be he who continues not in all the things of the law to do them.)

Belief in Jesus Christ dyeing and rising again for our sins saves us from what the law cant do, it is the only place where justice is, and it is how to glorify the Father through the Son, otherwise the law cant glorify the Father through the Son, but it can instead blaspheme and dishonour, because it is then denying how belief in Jesus Christ alone, is justice without any so called good deeds of the law.

This establishes the law of faith, ( for the law that is not of faith to not be included/continuing to give confusion.) and God, is the God of all, justifying both the circumcision and uncircumcision through faith, but only if there is agreement consenting, confession and acknowledgement, and not denial of the truth.



Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Galatians 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 

[gordon777]

That is what the scriptures are for, so everything is acceptable, and what understanding/belief ,is seen in people who strive with one another, and cant get answers, always have questions, have no agreements ?

I never see anyone agree with me on this forum, ( or any forum) but that is how Jesus Christ did bring peace to the world, God knows all He has established, it is confessed by Him, and anyone who denies it, only denies their part in it.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

None of that says that Paul taught that the believers should not practice Jewish custom and traditions, on the contrary, history shows that the believers were keeping most custom and traditions for quite some time. The importance of the Gospel is the Son, the literal Word of God, but that still does not mean that keeping the Law as believers is not of value. Just because we don't have to do something does not mean we should not.

Exactly there must be heresies personal commentaries of what we think the Holy Spirit is teaches us called oral traditions .

There can differences (oral traditions) as long as they do not do despite the fullness of grace the whole cost of salvation .

Catholicism is one that does do despite to the fulness the price of salvation .

They must teach a female deity that they have named Mary as queen mother after of sister in the lord, Mary that she alone received the fullness while the rest of the planet a unknown remnant of Grace and they must after taking the last breath of oxygen . .the breath of life.. . . continue to suffer wonder, suffer wonder with no end of faith in sight

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

The first to remember about the law is that it is not of faith.

Yes not ours His faith by which we are born agin from above. . The creative faithfull law "let there be" and the testimony "it was God good"

Satan would have some to think God does not need faith .. .an abomination of desolation making the faith of Christ without effect or void of His understanding .Can't serve two teaching masters.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes not ours His faith by which we are born agin from above. . The creative faithfull law "let there be" and the testimony "it was God good"

Satan would have some to think God does not need faith .. .an abomination of desolation making the faith of Christ without effect or void of His understanding .Can't serve two teaching masters.

Faith and work are the two sides of the same coin. Faith motivates work, work substantiates faith.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

That is what the scriptures are for, so everything is acceptable, and what understanding/belief ,is seen in people who strive with one another, and cant get answers, always have questions, have no agreements ?

I never see anyone agree with me on this forum, ( or any forum) but that is how Jesus Christ did bring peace to the world, God knows all He has established, it is confessed by Him, and anyone who denies it, only denies their part in it.

I'll agree with you as long as you interpret the NT with the OT.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Faith and work are the two sides of the same coin. Faith motivates work, work substantiates faith.

Yes, the faith of Christ (God's faith) works in us to both give us ears to hear his wild and a new born again heart to work it out to His good pleasure.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, the faith of Christ (God's faith) works in us to both give us ears to hear his wild and a new born again heart to work it out to His good pleasure.

There's this saying from a saint: "pray like there's no one but God; work like there's no one but yourself." Case in point, the Torah lesson is Ex. 16 where God supernaturally provided manna in the wilderness to feed the Israelites, but there was a caveat - this tasty wafer didn't appear in their tents. All Israelites, men and women, young and old, great and small, all must go out and gather their own portions, and they did it for 40 years! God provides the necessary resources, knowledge and assistance, and then we must do the job. Think about the three servants in the parable of talents, the two faithful ones multiplied the talents given to them, the lazy one laid it in waste.