S
Soma-Sight
Guest
What is your reasoning of worship and rest on Sunday?
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O
Orthodox Christian
Guest
I don't find your poll choices reflect Eastern Christian sensibility. Sunday is not our Sabbath- Saturday is. But we worship on Kyriaki- the Lord's Day- and observe Sabbath (after a fashion) on Saturday-as the Church did from the beginning.
We maintain the Hebrew observation, illumined as it is in the light of Christ and His Holy Resurrection. Saturdya is for a day of rest because Christ rested on that day. It is a day when we anticipate the joy that comes in the morning. Sunday is not solemn for us, but radiant. As Justin martyr wrote, Sunday is for us both 1st day and 8th day- the Day of New Creation, the Lord's Day: for through the Cross, life has come to us; and by His Holy Resurrection, we are also quickened and made alive.
We agree that every day is a new Sabbath of rest for us, just as we see every day is a day of resurrection. We see eternity breaking into time by the ministry of Christ, the etrnal One, breaking into time and taking captivity captive. We also see ourselves continuing in the cycles of life. Therefore, to us, Sabbaton (Saturday) is a day of solemnity and reflection, seasoned by hope, and Sunday is a time of jubilant coporate worship.
We maintain the Hebrew observation, illumined as it is in the light of Christ and His Holy Resurrection. Saturdya is for a day of rest because Christ rested on that day. It is a day when we anticipate the joy that comes in the morning. Sunday is not solemn for us, but radiant. As Justin martyr wrote, Sunday is for us both 1st day and 8th day- the Day of New Creation, the Lord's Day: for through the Cross, life has come to us; and by His Holy Resurrection, we are also quickened and made alive.
We agree that every day is a new Sabbath of rest for us, just as we see every day is a day of resurrection. We see eternity breaking into time by the ministry of Christ, the etrnal One, breaking into time and taking captivity captive. We also see ourselves continuing in the cycles of life. Therefore, to us, Sabbaton (Saturday) is a day of solemnity and reflection, seasoned by hope, and Sunday is a time of jubilant coporate worship.
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
Orthodox Christian,
Then my question for you is whether Sunday "observance" in any form is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY Biblically and outside of tradition?
That is, are those that Keep the Saturday Sabbath as a Day of Worship and rest contradicting scripture in any way?
Is Sunday necessary?
Then my question for you is whether Sunday "observance" in any form is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY Biblically and outside of tradition?
That is, are those that Keep the Saturday Sabbath as a Day of Worship and rest contradicting scripture in any way?
Is Sunday necessary?
O
Orthodox Christian
Guest
Soma: Show me the mandate to meet on Saturday. The Sabbath was to be spent in homes. Worshipping on Sunday takes nothing away from Sabbaton, except in those places where inaccurate teaching has prevailed. In the West, we have the extremes that would do away with one or the other. This is a truncated liturgical/worship life.
But the a priori position that you take- "show me outside of tradtion"- is not one that I share. The Holy Scriptures are what they are because of tradition. The only ones that made it in the canon are those that had traditional support for their authenticity and apostoli origin. They had no carbon dating or literary analysis, no linguistic regression or archeological validation: what made it in the canon was that which had the support of tradition.
But the a priori position that you take- "show me outside of tradtion"- is not one that I share. The Holy Scriptures are what they are because of tradition. The only ones that made it in the canon are those that had traditional support for their authenticity and apostoli origin. They had no carbon dating or literary analysis, no linguistic regression or archeological validation: what made it in the canon was that which had the support of tradition.
S
Soma-Sight
Guest
I see,
If the evidence of no archeological and no carbon dating etc is true than you have a point.
At any rate your Orthodox Church still Keeps the Sabbath Holy so I see no contradiction in scripture there.....
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
Soma-Sight said:
Sputnik: I don't believe that the majority of Christians actually use too much 'reasoning' when it comes to this issue. Most know that Sunday is 'church day' and that's as far as their reasoning takes them.
If not for Sabbatarians (Jews, Adventists, 7th-day Baptists, Worldwide Church of God - any more?) who observe Saturday and claim it to be a binding commandment of God, the majority of mainstream Christians would never have considered whatever Paul may or may not have had to say on this issue.
Sunday is the day that most churches open their doors for worship. It really IS as simple as that.
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
As an addendum to the above ...if one could read the scriptures without the influence of preconceived notions and traditional beliefs, Christians of today would NOT be observing Sunday as a holy day at all.
I guess everyone at some time or another has heard the classic tale of The Mutiny On The Bounty. The actual mutiny was instigated by second officer in command, Fletcher Christian, who was acting in the crew's best interests. The Commander of the H.M.S Bounty, Captain William Bligh, was a callous and a cruel man. As a consequence for his 'over the top' discipline toward his crew, he drove them to the point where there was no other alternative but than to mutineer. (Watch the movie sometime - I personally prefer the 1960's version starring Marlon Brando and Trevor Howard ...but, to each his own).
In 1790, The H.M.S. Bounty, its crew of mutineers and their Tahitian companions, finished up at an unchartered and uninhabited South Pacific island. Though small, the island was a virtual paradise and appeared to cater for all of their needs. Pitcairn, as the island was called, eventually became a British colony.
An interesting thing occurred after the mutineers set up home on the island. Among many other items that they salvaged from the Bounty before eventually sinking the ship, was a Bible. These men had no preconceived religious beliefs prior to this time. But, they somehow felt a spiritual need in their lives. So, they read the Bible from cover to cover, studied The Word, and chose to follow Jesus Christ.
They set aside a certain day each week on which to worship ...just as the Bible asked them to. That day was the seventh-day or Saturday. They were sailors. They knew which day of the week it was. No one had told them about Sunday. Consequently they had no tradition to follow. Just the Bible.
To this very day, the inhabitants of Pitcairn Island are Seventh-day Adventists. I wonder how many of you on this forum would care to tell them that they've got it all wrong?
I guess everyone at some time or another has heard the classic tale of The Mutiny On The Bounty. The actual mutiny was instigated by second officer in command, Fletcher Christian, who was acting in the crew's best interests. The Commander of the H.M.S Bounty, Captain William Bligh, was a callous and a cruel man. As a consequence for his 'over the top' discipline toward his crew, he drove them to the point where there was no other alternative but than to mutineer. (Watch the movie sometime - I personally prefer the 1960's version starring Marlon Brando and Trevor Howard ...but, to each his own).
In 1790, The H.M.S. Bounty, its crew of mutineers and their Tahitian companions, finished up at an unchartered and uninhabited South Pacific island. Though small, the island was a virtual paradise and appeared to cater for all of their needs. Pitcairn, as the island was called, eventually became a British colony.
An interesting thing occurred after the mutineers set up home on the island. Among many other items that they salvaged from the Bounty before eventually sinking the ship, was a Bible. These men had no preconceived religious beliefs prior to this time. But, they somehow felt a spiritual need in their lives. So, they read the Bible from cover to cover, studied The Word, and chose to follow Jesus Christ.
They set aside a certain day each week on which to worship ...just as the Bible asked them to. That day was the seventh-day or Saturday. They were sailors. They knew which day of the week it was. No one had told them about Sunday. Consequently they had no tradition to follow. Just the Bible.
To this very day, the inhabitants of Pitcairn Island are Seventh-day Adventists. I wonder how many of you on this forum would care to tell them that they've got it all wrong?
R
Ruben
Guest
In view of the absents of any direct commands in the NT that clearly justifies Sunday worship, how is it that the blanket statement that ‘God should be worshiped everyday’ is considered sufficient justification? Every day Americans can celebrate their freedom (while we still have some left) but that does not negate the day set aside where America as a whole commemorates our freedom. The logic seem to be that if celebrated every day then the annual day set aside is no longer of any significance, just another day like all the rest.
Every day should be a day of recognition to our Creator but the seventh day observance represents a weekly commemoration of creation and the God of Creation. The OT laws clearly states that the seventh day should be observed. No where and I mean no where in the Bible does it state that Sunday is the new day of worship replacing the seventh day. The best defense for the change to Sunday worship is vague and can only be arrived at as a matter of personal interpretation and conviction, right or wrong.
Every day should be a day of recognition to our Creator but the seventh day observance represents a weekly commemoration of creation and the God of Creation. The OT laws clearly states that the seventh day should be observed. No where and I mean no where in the Bible does it state that Sunday is the new day of worship replacing the seventh day. The best defense for the change to Sunday worship is vague and can only be arrived at as a matter of personal interpretation and conviction, right or wrong.
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
Ruben said:
Sputnik: Right. It's ludicrous. There is no way that EVERY day can be devoted to God for the majority of people who have to work or go about their daily routines. God never asked that of us anyway. We were actually commanded to work the first six days of the week and rest on the seventh. 'Grace', to many it would seem, allows them to make up their own commandments.
And, the one thing that most Christians don't realize is the fact that God not only initiated the 7th-day Sabbath way before the first Jew at Creation ...He also blessed and sancified the 7th-day before the fall of man! And so the Sabbath could NEVER have been a 'shadow' pointing to the Savior.
Ruben said:
Sputnik: That's right. The command to change the day is just not there. The truth of the matter is that it takes forums such as this to raise the topic in people's minds in the first place. The majority of average church-going Christians wouldn't even give the matter any thought. When some of the more theologically minded are confronted with the issue between Saturday and Sunday, however, then they somehow try to justify 'Sunday observance' from scriptures that are conspicuous by their absence.
S
Servant_2000
Guest
What you are claiming is that the 10 are the eternal laws of God, they began with God. This would mean they have no beginning and no ending. The existence of an eternal law of God would be to who? It can’t be the Ten Commandments. How can the 10 be eternal laws if they include “thou shalt not†to man? There was no man until God created him! Whom would they be for? They couldn't be for God, God does not sin; which is the very reason the law was given ! Deuteronomy says to keep the law that it may be well with you, God doesn’t give the law for His sake, but ours. Neither could the Sabbath be an eternal commandment for mankind since the Sabbath was made for man. There could be no Sabbath commandment before the creation of a human race.
However, there was no Sabbath command given to man to observe after the creation because only God created and rested.
God rested only once, while the Sabbath command to Israel is to rest every 7th day, once a week. The Sabbath day appears to have been made for man, but in the book of Exodus it shows that it was specifically given at Sinai incorporated in the 10, not at creation. When God rested from His work of creation on the seventh day He sanctified it afterward, set it apart, which it was later to be given to Israel (to man). In other words, the Sabbath day was made for man in the respect of a future gift not for man in the garden. And not for all men, since no one ever kept it or was ever punished for not keeping it, until Exodus 16. It was given as a gift to Israel after their bondage for 400 years.
The word for Worship in the Strong's Concordance in Greek is proskuneo #4352); from 4314 and a derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): WORSHIP. The act of paying honor to a deity; religious reverence and homage. The rendering of the following Heb. and Gk. words: (from New Unger's Bible Dictionary)
The worship of God is nowhere defined in Scripture as one certain thing. It can be many things; to praise; to sing from the heart in praise and thanksgiving it can be regarded as the direct acknowledgement to God, of His nature, attributes, to submit to his ways and claims, or by how one lives their life. In Acts 17:25 therapeuo, “to serve, do service to†is rendered “is worshipped.â€Â
WORSHIP (VERB AND NOUN), WORSHIPING
1. proskuneo #4352, “to make obeisance, do reverence to†(from pros, “towards,†and kuneo, “to kissâ€Â), is the most frequent word rendered “to worship.†It is used of an act of homage or reverence (a) to God, e. g., <att. 4:10; John 4:21-24; 1 Cor. 14:25; Rev. 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 11:16; 19:10 (2nd part) and 22:9; (b) to Christ, e. g., Matt. 2:2,8, 11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9,17; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6>, in a quotation from the Sept. of Deut. 32:43, referring to Christ's second advent; “At the word `worship' in Matt. 2:2, etc., add the marginal note `The Greek word denotes an act of reverence, …
2. sebomai 4576, “to revere,†stressing the feeling of awe or devotion, is used of “worship†(a) to God, Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:7; Acts 16:14; 18:7,133. sebazomai ^4573^, akin to No. 2, “to honor religiously,†is used in Rom. 1:25 4. latreuo ^3000^, “to serve, to render religious service or homage,†is translated “to worship†in <Phil. 3:3>, “(who) worship (by the Spirit of God),†RV, KJV, “(which) worship (God in the spirit)â€Â; the RV renders it “to serve†(for KJV, “to worshipâ€Â) in <Acts 7:42; 24:14>; KJV and RV, “(the) worshipers†in Heb. 10:2, present participle, lit., “(the ones) worshiping.†See SERVE. 5. eusebeo ^2151^, “to act piously towards,†is translated “ye worship†in Acts 17:23.
Here is the first time the day of worship was given to Israel (it became the unleaven bread feast). Exodus 12:14 “So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance. 15 'Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses. For whoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. 16 'On the first day there shall be a holy convocation, and on the seventh day there shall be a holy convocation for you. No manner of work shall be done on them; but that which everyone must eat-- that only may be prepared by you.17 `So you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this same day I will have brought your armies out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as an everlasting ordinance.â€Â
Exodus 34:4: “So He cut two tablets of stone like the first ones. Then Moses rose early in the morning and went up Mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him; and he took in his hand the two tablets of stone.Verse 8 So Moses made haste and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshiped.†Was this the Sabbath? Does God allow us to worship him any day and time we please or only on the day and time required.
Who changed the Sabbath? Looks like God Himself did.
Lev. 23:28-32: “And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God. “For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. “And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. “You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. “It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath.â€Â
By giving them another Sabbath rest, but they kept it just like the 7th day Sabbath. The same penalty was enforced for violating the day just as the Sabbath.
Lev. 23:36 `For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it. Just like a Sabbath another day of worship but this is on Sunday. All the feast days were Holy Convocations.
the first day there shall be a sabbath rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath rest. on the first day there shall be a sabbath rest, and on the eighth day a sabbathrest. Lev 23:41 `You shall keep it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations. You shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
Yet SDA's and most Sabbatarians break this, yet this is a command just like the Sabbath is. The fact is the Sabbath is a day of rest the other feast days were assemblies of worship. You Sabbatarians have it backwards!
However, there was no Sabbath command given to man to observe after the creation because only God created and rested.
God rested only once, while the Sabbath command to Israel is to rest every 7th day, once a week. The Sabbath day appears to have been made for man, but in the book of Exodus it shows that it was specifically given at Sinai incorporated in the 10, not at creation. When God rested from His work of creation on the seventh day He sanctified it afterward, set it apart, which it was later to be given to Israel (to man). In other words, the Sabbath day was made for man in the respect of a future gift not for man in the garden. And not for all men, since no one ever kept it or was ever punished for not keeping it, until Exodus 16. It was given as a gift to Israel after their bondage for 400 years.
The word for Worship in the Strong's Concordance in Greek is proskuneo #4352); from 4314 and a derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): WORSHIP. The act of paying honor to a deity; religious reverence and homage. The rendering of the following Heb. and Gk. words: (from New Unger's Bible Dictionary)
The worship of God is nowhere defined in Scripture as one certain thing. It can be many things; to praise; to sing from the heart in praise and thanksgiving it can be regarded as the direct acknowledgement to God, of His nature, attributes, to submit to his ways and claims, or by how one lives their life. In Acts 17:25 therapeuo, “to serve, do service to†is rendered “is worshipped.â€Â
WORSHIP (VERB AND NOUN), WORSHIPING
1. proskuneo #4352, “to make obeisance, do reverence to†(from pros, “towards,†and kuneo, “to kissâ€Â), is the most frequent word rendered “to worship.†It is used of an act of homage or reverence (a) to God, e. g., <att. 4:10; John 4:21-24; 1 Cor. 14:25; Rev. 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 11:16; 19:10 (2nd part) and 22:9; (b) to Christ, e. g., Matt. 2:2,8, 11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9,17; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6>, in a quotation from the Sept. of Deut. 32:43, referring to Christ's second advent; “At the word `worship' in Matt. 2:2, etc., add the marginal note `The Greek word denotes an act of reverence, …
2. sebomai 4576, “to revere,†stressing the feeling of awe or devotion, is used of “worship†(a) to God, Matt. 15:9; Mark 7:7; Acts 16:14; 18:7,133. sebazomai ^4573^, akin to No. 2, “to honor religiously,†is used in Rom. 1:25 4. latreuo ^3000^, “to serve, to render religious service or homage,†is translated “to worship†in <Phil. 3:3>, “(who) worship (by the Spirit of God),†RV, KJV, “(which) worship (God in the spirit)â€Â; the RV renders it “to serve†(for KJV, “to worshipâ€Â) in <Acts 7:42; 24:14>; KJV and RV, “(the) worshipers†in Heb. 10:2, present participle, lit., “(the ones) worshiping.†See SERVE. 5. eusebeo ^2151^, “to act piously towards,†is translated “ye worship†in Acts 17:23.
Here is the first time the day of worship was given to Israel (it became the unleaven bread feast). Exodus 12:14 “So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance. 15 'Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses. For whoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. 16 'On the first day there shall be a holy convocation, and on the seventh day there shall be a holy convocation for you. No manner of work shall be done on them; but that which everyone must eat-- that only may be prepared by you.17 `So you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this same day I will have brought your armies out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as an everlasting ordinance.â€Â
Exodus 34:4: “So He cut two tablets of stone like the first ones. Then Moses rose early in the morning and went up Mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him; and he took in his hand the two tablets of stone.Verse 8 So Moses made haste and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshiped.†Was this the Sabbath? Does God allow us to worship him any day and time we please or only on the day and time required.
Who changed the Sabbath? Looks like God Himself did.
Lev. 23:28-32: “And you shall do no work on that same day, for it is the Day of Atonement, to make atonement for you before the LORD your God. “For any person who is not afflicted in soul on that same day shall be cut off from his people. “And any person who does any work on that same day, that person I will destroy from among his people. “You shall do no manner of work; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. “It shall be to you a Sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath.â€Â
By giving them another Sabbath rest, but they kept it just like the 7th day Sabbath. The same penalty was enforced for violating the day just as the Sabbath.
Lev. 23:36 `For seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. On the eighth day you shall have a holy convocation, and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD. It is a sacred assembly, and you shall do no customary work on it. Just like a Sabbath another day of worship but this is on Sunday. All the feast days were Holy Convocations.
the first day there shall be a sabbath rest, and on the eighth day a sabbath rest. on the first day there shall be a sabbath rest, and on the eighth day a sabbathrest. Lev 23:41 `You shall keep it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It shall be a statute forever in your generations. You shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
Yet SDA's and most Sabbatarians break this, yet this is a command just like the Sabbath is. The fact is the Sabbath is a day of rest the other feast days were assemblies of worship. You Sabbatarians have it backwards!
G
gazzamor
Guest
For an interesting read on this subject, type into your search engine: "Rome's Challenge", and read it carefully. I found it quite interesting.
God Bless,
Gazzamor
God Bless,
Gazzamor
C
ChristineES
Guest
Your answer selection wasn't complete, there are other reasons of why people use Sunday instead of Saturday
note-these are not necessarily my own beliefs)
1. Some cultures use Monday as the first day of the week (I don't, but...)
2.Some folks don't think that God actually said a certain day, just the "seventh day". (I don't either but...)
I don't think any HUMAN has any right to judge when a person makes a choice, only God and Yeshua have that right. Why don't you try worrying about what makes YOU a better Christian and stop worrying about everyone else. You know the quote:
Mat 7:3 And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the splinter out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.
My translation for that: Worry about YOU and your walk with Yeshua, let other Christians worry about theirs. Why don't you spend your energy witnessing to nonbelievers instead.
note-these are not necessarily my own beliefs)1. Some cultures use Monday as the first day of the week (I don't, but...)
2.Some folks don't think that God actually said a certain day, just the "seventh day". (I don't either but...)
I don't think any HUMAN has any right to judge when a person makes a choice, only God and Yeshua have that right. Why don't you try worrying about what makes YOU a better Christian and stop worrying about everyone else. You know the quote:
Mat 7:3 And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the splinter out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.
My translation for that: Worry about YOU and your walk with Yeshua, let other Christians worry about theirs. Why don't you spend your energy witnessing to nonbelievers instead.
I
Imagican
Guest
ChristineES said:Your answer selection wasn't complete, there are other reasons of why people use Sunday instead of Saturday
1. Some cultures use Monday as the first day of the week (I don't, but...)
2.Some folks don't think that God actually said a certain day, just the "seventh day". (I don't either but...)
I don't think any HUMAN has any right to judge when a person makes a choice, only God and Yeshua have that right. Why don't you try worrying about what makes YOU a better Christian and stop worrying about everyone else. You know the quote:
Mat 7:3 And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the splinter out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.
My translation for that: Worry about YOU and your walk with Yeshua, let other Christians worry about theirs. Why don't you spend your energy witnessing to nonbelievers instead.
Everyone that has posted here HAS offered sound understanding. But I must say that what is stated above IS 'the truth'. We were SERIOUSLY warned against 'judging ANYONE' on which 'days' they choose to honor.
But, there ARE 'things', such AS 'days of worship', 'holidays', etc...that we SHOULD use discernment in our deciding whether or not our participation of such, would 'please God'. Paganism, NO matter what 'name' it is given could NOT possibly 'please God'.
So, where 'ours' is NOT to judge our brothers and sisters, we, as Christians, should jUDGE THE DAYS and come to conclusions in OUR OWN HEARTS as to whether these ARE righteous or NOT. And discussion such as this are CERTAINLY a viable means to 'get to the MEAT that matters', thereby allowing the uninformed to form a more 'perfect understanding'.
MEC
C
ChristineES
Guest
You love to twist words, most of you. Did God ever say that one would go to hell if he decided to have his Sabbaths on Sunday instead of Saturday? I never recall even reading that one.
I am tired of this "I am always right and no one else is" mentality around here. It seems a lot of posters on this board are more worried about being right than worried about people's souls!
You are right about one thing- Some Christians do things that Christians should not do. Those go by individual cases, and someone (like an elder of the faith) would say something PERSONALLY to said person. That is NOT what I was saying, and you know it good and well. I was pointing out that we ALL have our problems, or misinterpretations and that we should worry about that instead of this "I am right and you are wrong" game you seem to all love to play.
I am tired of this "I am always right and no one else is" mentality around here. It seems a lot of posters on this board are more worried about being right than worried about people's souls!
You are right about one thing- Some Christians do things that Christians should not do. Those go by individual cases, and someone (like an elder of the faith) would say something PERSONALLY to said person. That is NOT what I was saying, and you know it good and well. I was pointing out that we ALL have our problems, or misinterpretations and that we should worry about that instead of this "I am right and you are wrong" game you seem to all love to play.
I
Imagican
Guest
Golly ChristineES,
I specifically picked out 'your reply' and offered that 'YOURS' was the MOST truthful of the bunch. I wasn't 'attacking your post' but agreeing with it.
And I am sorry that you feel that I must 'always' be right. I guess I can understand how this could be for I USUALLY won't even venture into discussions that I DON'T feel that I have something to offer. The things that I know NOTHING about, I usually 'don't take part in'.
While agreeing with your post and even RE-POSTING it so that 'others' MAY gain something from it, I DO feel that REGARDLESS of our INABILITY to 'judge others' righteously, we are CERTAINLY responsible for UNDERSTAND 'what we do and why'. Far too many people simply accept what someone ELSE offers without any thought as to the validity of what they accept.
No different than 'voting'. A democracy is ONLY as 'helpful' to 'the people' as the 'people' are responsible for KNOWING 'who' they choose to cast their votes 'for'. Offering EVERYONE a 'right' to vote can be EXTREMELY dangerous if those given this right do NOT do their 'homework' to KNOW what they are voting for. The majority is RARELY a very successful means of determining what's BEST in ANY situation. For the MAJORITY rarely have an inkling as to the 'true' benefits and/or consequences' of their decisions.
It's NO different with 'religion'. Most find themselves putting their 'faith' in the hands of their 'teachers' rather than in a 'personal belief and understanding of God'. This places them at the mercy of the whims of their mentors. If ALL such teachers were 'guaranteed' of ONLY offering that which IS TRUTH, then this would STILL be a very 'shaky' subject. But, that there ARE many that would choose to lead people astray for the sake of personal gain or power IS a fact of life and so prevalent that we MUST beware of it and make EVERY effort possible to protect ourselves from this. The ONLY way that I know that this IS possible is to put one's faith in God rather than a 'church', pastor, priest, etc.............
As the 'purpose' of this thread illustrates, there are MANY things that 'mainstream' Christianity has 'bought into' and MUCH without EVER even offering a 'thought' as to 'WHY'? This is VERY dangerous. Following tradition simply for the 'sake of' tradition is one of the LAST ways that one can come to KNOW The Father. Especially IF this tradition MAY have been designed SPECIFICALLY to lead one AWAY from The Father. And don't think for a second that this is NOT the case concerning MANY of the 'church traditions' that exist. (for the sake of those that prefer 'short posts', this is to be continued for those that 'don't mind'.
MEC
I specifically picked out 'your reply' and offered that 'YOURS' was the MOST truthful of the bunch. I wasn't 'attacking your post' but agreeing with it.
And I am sorry that you feel that I must 'always' be right. I guess I can understand how this could be for I USUALLY won't even venture into discussions that I DON'T feel that I have something to offer. The things that I know NOTHING about, I usually 'don't take part in'.
While agreeing with your post and even RE-POSTING it so that 'others' MAY gain something from it, I DO feel that REGARDLESS of our INABILITY to 'judge others' righteously, we are CERTAINLY responsible for UNDERSTAND 'what we do and why'. Far too many people simply accept what someone ELSE offers without any thought as to the validity of what they accept.
No different than 'voting'. A democracy is ONLY as 'helpful' to 'the people' as the 'people' are responsible for KNOWING 'who' they choose to cast their votes 'for'. Offering EVERYONE a 'right' to vote can be EXTREMELY dangerous if those given this right do NOT do their 'homework' to KNOW what they are voting for. The majority is RARELY a very successful means of determining what's BEST in ANY situation. For the MAJORITY rarely have an inkling as to the 'true' benefits and/or consequences' of their decisions.
It's NO different with 'religion'. Most find themselves putting their 'faith' in the hands of their 'teachers' rather than in a 'personal belief and understanding of God'. This places them at the mercy of the whims of their mentors. If ALL such teachers were 'guaranteed' of ONLY offering that which IS TRUTH, then this would STILL be a very 'shaky' subject. But, that there ARE many that would choose to lead people astray for the sake of personal gain or power IS a fact of life and so prevalent that we MUST beware of it and make EVERY effort possible to protect ourselves from this. The ONLY way that I know that this IS possible is to put one's faith in God rather than a 'church', pastor, priest, etc.............
As the 'purpose' of this thread illustrates, there are MANY things that 'mainstream' Christianity has 'bought into' and MUCH without EVER even offering a 'thought' as to 'WHY'? This is VERY dangerous. Following tradition simply for the 'sake of' tradition is one of the LAST ways that one can come to KNOW The Father. Especially IF this tradition MAY have been designed SPECIFICALLY to lead one AWAY from The Father. And don't think for a second that this is NOT the case concerning MANY of the 'church traditions' that exist. (for the sake of those that prefer 'short posts', this is to be continued for those that 'don't mind'.
MEC
I
Imagican
Guest
Satan is working OVERTIME in his efforts to gain AS MANY as possible. He knows that his time is limited and he has influence in places and ways that many are completely OBLIVIOUS to. Yes, there are MANY churches that 'THINK' they do the will of God but in reality they have chosen to worship a 'different' father. All one need do is read The Word to KNOW that this has ALREADY been warned of and not just far into the future, but AT THE TIME THAT THE WARNING WAS OFFERED. The 'falling away' BEGAN from the moment that The Church was formed. Yes, there has ALWAYS remained a remnant, but for the masses, the 'falling away' has been accomplished to the point that MOST are not even aware of it's existence any longer.
So, Sunday worship..............where did it 'come from', 'why was it 'changed', and, is it OK to follow this 'man-made' tradition? These ARE questions that SHOULD be answered and understood BEFORE one simply ACCEPTS it because; 'that's the way my family did it', or 'everybody ELSE is doing it', (or the WORSE); 'THAT'S the WAY 'I' LIKE IT'. Without the answers to these questions and others, HOW is one capable of discernment one way or the other?
And does it 'really' NOT MATTER? Are we REALLY free to do EVERYTHING 'our way'? Or IS there a 'right way' and a 'wrong way'? Each must determine the answer to these questions that BEST suits 'their needs'. Yet we HAVE The Word, and The Spirit IS there to lead those that are willing to humble themselves to It. Most, however, will simply take the 'path of least resistance', unwilling to 'rock the boat' for the shear fear of being persecuted by those that they have come to know and love, REGARDLESS of whether it's RIGHT OR WRONG..
I see a 'billboard' the other day 'advertising a church'. It's little 'slogan' is; ''You're gonna LOVE this church''. It almost made me 'sick' when I read it. Most are probably thinking, 'so what'? And I am quite sure that to 'most', my offering here makes "NO SENSE'' whatsoever. See what I mean about the 'falling away'? Most are unable to EVEN UNDERSTAND it when it's STARING them in the face.
The advertisement had NOTHING to do with God or Christ but was directed SOLELY at THE PEOPLE. An outright ENTICEMENT for those that are IN NEED of a 'place' to feel 'welcomed', REGARDLESS of God or Christ. Focusing on the FLESH rather than The Spirit.
And THAT, my friends, is where we SEE the churches NOW DAYS. Pleasers of MEN rather than God by offering what the FLESH desires and BOWING to the carnal 'wishes' of the congregation RATHER than standing FIRM in The Spirit. And ALL for the sake of 'bragging rights', 'money', 'power'? IS ALL VANITY? So sad.
For there IS a God that wishes to love us and be loved. Willing to offer ALL that He is able to bring us to an understanding OF His Love. Begging and waiting for those that are willing to LET HIM INTO THEIR HEARTS. Constantly offering His Love but rarely even acknowledged for WHAT He IS. Taking a 'back seat' to the wishes of even those that proclaim to KNOW Him. And STILL waiting, and waiting, and waiting................................Hoping against hope that ONE DAY..................
MEC
So, Sunday worship..............where did it 'come from', 'why was it 'changed', and, is it OK to follow this 'man-made' tradition? These ARE questions that SHOULD be answered and understood BEFORE one simply ACCEPTS it because; 'that's the way my family did it', or 'everybody ELSE is doing it', (or the WORSE); 'THAT'S the WAY 'I' LIKE IT'. Without the answers to these questions and others, HOW is one capable of discernment one way or the other?
And does it 'really' NOT MATTER? Are we REALLY free to do EVERYTHING 'our way'? Or IS there a 'right way' and a 'wrong way'? Each must determine the answer to these questions that BEST suits 'their needs'. Yet we HAVE The Word, and The Spirit IS there to lead those that are willing to humble themselves to It. Most, however, will simply take the 'path of least resistance', unwilling to 'rock the boat' for the shear fear of being persecuted by those that they have come to know and love, REGARDLESS of whether it's RIGHT OR WRONG..
I see a 'billboard' the other day 'advertising a church'. It's little 'slogan' is; ''You're gonna LOVE this church''. It almost made me 'sick' when I read it. Most are probably thinking, 'so what'? And I am quite sure that to 'most', my offering here makes "NO SENSE'' whatsoever. See what I mean about the 'falling away'? Most are unable to EVEN UNDERSTAND it when it's STARING them in the face.
The advertisement had NOTHING to do with God or Christ but was directed SOLELY at THE PEOPLE. An outright ENTICEMENT for those that are IN NEED of a 'place' to feel 'welcomed', REGARDLESS of God or Christ. Focusing on the FLESH rather than The Spirit.
And THAT, my friends, is where we SEE the churches NOW DAYS. Pleasers of MEN rather than God by offering what the FLESH desires and BOWING to the carnal 'wishes' of the congregation RATHER than standing FIRM in The Spirit. And ALL for the sake of 'bragging rights', 'money', 'power'? IS ALL VANITY? So sad.
For there IS a God that wishes to love us and be loved. Willing to offer ALL that He is able to bring us to an understanding OF His Love. Begging and waiting for those that are willing to LET HIM INTO THEIR HEARTS. Constantly offering His Love but rarely even acknowledged for WHAT He IS. Taking a 'back seat' to the wishes of even those that proclaim to KNOW Him. And STILL waiting, and waiting, and waiting................................Hoping against hope that ONE DAY..................
MEC
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
ChristineES said:Your answer selection wasn't complete, there are other reasons of why people use Sunday instead of Saturday
1. Some cultures use Monday as the first day of the week (I don't, but...)
2.Some folks don't think that God actually said a certain day, just the "seventh day". (I don't either but...)
I don't think any HUMAN has any right to judge when a person makes a choice, only God and Yeshua have that right. Why don't you try worrying about what makes YOU a better Christian and stop worrying about everyone else. You know the quote:
Mat 7:3 And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the splinter out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.
My translation for that: Worry about YOU and your walk with Yeshua, let other Christians worry about theirs. Why don't you spend your energy witnessing to nonbelievers instead.
Christian ...this IS a discussion forum and topics such as the 7th-day Sabbath/Sunday are what keeps the forum alive.
Furthermore, I don't know that people are necessarily 'judging' others when they make pertinent points about the Sabbath/Sunday and their relationship to the Bible. God DID bless and sanctify the seventh-day at Creation whether you like it or not. Mainstream Christianity HAS replaced that holy day with Sunday and this is a (genuine?) concern to some other Christians. They DO have a point, Christine. This should not mean, of course, that they stand in judgment of others. But, as mentioned, I don't think that the majority are doing this. They are merely drawing attention to the fact that the seventh-day and NOT Sunday is God's Sabbath and, therefore, should Christians perhaps be acknowledging this fact ...? The texts you give above have no relevance to this issue UNLESS someone IS judging others.
Also ...remembering the Sabbath (4th-commandment) and reminding others IS most definitely witnessing to others.
C
ChristineES
Guest
I am sorry, Imagican. I wasn't actually directing my post at you, but really at the whole thread (I know it seemed that way, which is why I apologized). I think I should clarify what I say: my posts are off-topic, as you can tell, I should have started a new thread about it, but since I did not... well you know.
I am not talking about judging, I am talking about worrying about what everyone else believes. For example: What would it matter to a SDA if another denomination chose to go to Church on a Sunday instead of Saturday? If you don't want to worship on Sunday then of course you would go to the denomination that worships on Saturday. But why would someone worry about the denomination who believes the Sabbath is Sunday? I have seen this topic come up time and again, and I can't understand why everyone is so worried about it. Each one is KEEPING their Sabbath, keeping the commandment. I don't believe that Yeshua is too troubled about it as long as we do keep it. This is a personal opinion of mine, and no one has to take it as fact (that is the great thing about opinions)
I am not talking about judging, I am talking about worrying about what everyone else believes. For example: What would it matter to a SDA if another denomination chose to go to Church on a Sunday instead of Saturday? If you don't want to worship on Sunday then of course you would go to the denomination that worships on Saturday. But why would someone worry about the denomination who believes the Sabbath is Sunday? I have seen this topic come up time and again, and I can't understand why everyone is so worried about it. Each one is KEEPING their Sabbath, keeping the commandment. I don't believe that Yeshua is too troubled about it as long as we do keep it. This is a personal opinion of mine, and no one has to take it as fact (that is the great thing about opinions)
S
SputnikBoy
Guest
Christine, this is not a game of 'Choose Your Own Sabbath'. There is only ONE Sabbath and that's the 7th-day Sabbath. If you check your dictionary you will find the correct definition as #1, that is, Saturday. THEN, definition #2 will tell you that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath. And this is true, Sunday HAS become the official Christian Sabbath ...thanks to the RCC. And it is THIS mental acceptance that sabbatarians are objecting to more so than one's 'physically' worshipping on Sunday. While you regard this in a casual manner, some believe that this is blasphemy.
C
ChristineES
Guest
Sputnik, if you saw me and talked to me you would probably wonder how you could have ever said I was "casual" about faith. I am a t-totaller, a goodie two shoes, and etc. 
:
I never said anything about "choose your own Sabbath". I wasn't actually talking about the Sabbath, I was and still am talking about MINDING YOUR OWN BUSINESS. If someone does something you think is totally wrong, such as having Sabbath on Sunday, then it is between that person and GOD. I am also not saying that you CANNOT say that the Sabbath HAS to be Saturday or even debate about it.
Let me repeat: If a person chooses to worship on what you say is the wrong day, and you tell them that it is the wrong day and they don't listen to you, then they are making a decision. Whether you are right or the other is right is irrelevant at this point. You have to let that person make their own decisions. As I said earlier, it is between that person and God. Worry about what you do, when you observe Sabbath and don't worry if another one observes on a different day. If I expected everyone to accept my belief that you cannot lose your salvation, then I would keep beating my head up against the wall because there are many who believe you can lose your salvation. So I keep my belief, tell my belief, and accept that others have a different view.
If it really matters, I have my Sabbath on Saturday, but go to church on Sunday because that is when services are for my churches. I worship at home in my own way. 8-)
: I never said anything about "choose your own Sabbath". I wasn't actually talking about the Sabbath, I was and still am talking about MINDING YOUR OWN BUSINESS. If someone does something you think is totally wrong, such as having Sabbath on Sunday, then it is between that person and GOD. I am also not saying that you CANNOT say that the Sabbath HAS to be Saturday or even debate about it.
Let me repeat: If a person chooses to worship on what you say is the wrong day, and you tell them that it is the wrong day and they don't listen to you, then they are making a decision. Whether you are right or the other is right is irrelevant at this point. You have to let that person make their own decisions. As I said earlier, it is between that person and God. Worry about what you do, when you observe Sabbath and don't worry if another one observes on a different day. If I expected everyone to accept my belief that you cannot lose your salvation, then I would keep beating my head up against the wall because there are many who believe you can lose your salvation. So I keep my belief, tell my belief, and accept that others have a different view.
If it really matters, I have my Sabbath on Saturday, but go to church on Sunday because that is when services are for my churches. I worship at home in my own way. 8-)