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A Question....

whirlwind

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  • Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

How? The flood the dragon cast out of his mouth is a flood of lies, deception, twisted scripture as he pretends to be Jesus. The woman, if the woman is the body of Christ, is helped by the earth opening her mouth. The earth is symbolic of those that don't believe in Jesus. So, what is the verse telling us?

I have wondererd if the woman mentioned there is not the body of Christ but is the "other woman."

Your thoughts.....
 
whirlwind said:
  • Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

How? The flood the dragon cast out of his mouth is a flood of lies, deception, twisted scripture as he pretends to be Jesus. The woman, if the woman is the body of Christ, is helped by the earth opening her mouth. The earth is symbolic of those that don't believe in Jesus. So, what is the verse telling us?

I have wondererd if the woman mentioned there is not the body of Christ but is the "other woman."

Your thoughts.....

How? The flood the dragon cast out of his mouth is a flood of lies, deception, twisted scripture as he pretends to be Jesus.

Have you ever thought the flood might be just more then lies and deception??????? If waters in revelation represent people then its a good chance these waters have some connection to people also,,,,surely kenties.....

If this is true the only way the earth could help the woman is to control the population of these people(kenites) and in a big way it has,,,there is not many of them and a part of that is do to the peoples of earth......

Kinda just shooting options here........But every time I see animals mentioned I like to check im out ,,,,

Serpents are relatively little and hunt little things things they can easily grab and run of with...

Dragons hunt anything
 
(THE) said:
whirlwind said:
  • Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

How? The flood the dragon cast out of his mouth is a flood of lies, deception, twisted scripture as he pretends to be Jesus. The woman, if the woman is the body of Christ, is helped by the earth opening her mouth. The earth is symbolic of those that don't believe in Jesus. So, what is the verse telling us?

I have wondererd if the woman mentioned there is not the body of Christ but is the "other woman."

Your thoughts.....

How? The flood the dragon cast out of his mouth is a flood of lies, deception, twisted scripture as he pretends to be Jesus.

Have you ever thought the flood might be just more then lies and deception??????? If waters in revelation represent people then its a good chance these waters have some connection to people also,,,,surely kenties.....


:salute So, my brilliant friend, the waters from his mouth could be the people, the antichrists, Kenites, he sends out with his lies? The locust army?

If this is true the only way the earth could help the woman is to control the population of these people(kenites) and in a big way it has,,,there is not many of them and a part of that is do to the peoples of earth......

Kinda just shooting options here........But every time I see animals mentioned I like to check im out ,,,,

Serpents are relatively little and hunt little things things they can easily grab and run of with...

Dragons hunt anything


I'm not seeing the population control being how the earth helps...but I'll think about it. I LOVE your thought on the waters being people! :approve
 
whirlwind said:
(THE) said:
whirlwind said:
  • Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

How? The flood the dragon cast out of his mouth is a flood of lies, deception, twisted scripture as he pretends to be Jesus. The woman, if the woman is the body of Christ, is helped by the earth opening her mouth. The earth is symbolic of those that don't believe in Jesus. So, what is the verse telling us?

I have wondererd if the woman mentioned there is not the body of Christ but is the "other woman."

Your thoughts.....

How? The flood the dragon cast out of his mouth is a flood of lies, deception, twisted scripture as he pretends to be Jesus.

Have you ever thought the flood might be just more then lies and deception??????? If waters in revelation represent people then its a good chance these waters have some connection to people also,,,,surely kenties.....


:salute So, my brilliant friend, the waters from his mouth could be the people, the antichrists, Kenites, he sends out with his lies? The locust army?

[quote:dcfanad4]
If this is true the only way the earth could help the woman is to control the population of these people(kenites) and in a big way it has,,,there is not many of them and a part of that is do to the peoples of earth......

Kinda just shooting options here........But every time I see animals mentioned I like to check im out ,,,,

Serpents are relatively little and hunt little things things they can easily grab and run of with...

Dragons hunt anything


I'm not seeing the population control being how the earth helps...but I'll think about it. I LOVE your thought on the waters being people! :approve[/quote:dcfanad4]

lol im trying to figure out how in the world can the "earth" help stop the people or a certain people,,,,,I dont see anything out there... :confused ..I know the earth longs for the return of Christ,,,,maybe the earth itself has always been in alliance with trying to restore the true order of things....

Il think somemore on it..... :study
 
(THE) said:
lol im trying to figure out how in the world can the "earth" help stop the people or a certain people,,,,,I dont see anything out there... :confused ..I know the earth longs for the return of Christ,,,,maybe the earth itself has always been in alliance with trying to restore the true order of things....

Il think somemore on it..... :study

The earth and the sea are symbolic of mankind, unbelievers. So how can unbelievers, the earth, help the woman? How can they "swallow the flood?" I know they'll believe Satan but how does that help the woman? Unless....the woman in that verse isn't Israel, the body of Christ?

There are two women. Is it the great whore that the earth helps by believing Satan? :chin

Does the woman change from verse 12:15 to 16 and then back to the woman Israel in verse 17? Right now I'm studying the two beasts and how the serpent/dragon are connected to them and the verses switch back and forth between them...just like the "woman." So, I don't know. I'm open to suggestions. :gah
 
whirlwind said:
(THE) said:
lol im trying to figure out how in the world can the "earth" help stop the people or a certain people,,,,,I dont see anything out there... :confused ..I know the earth longs for the return of Christ,,,,maybe the earth itself has always been in alliance with trying to restore the true order of things....

Il think somemore on it..... :study

The earth and the sea are symbolic of mankind, unbelievers. So how can unbelievers, the earth, help the woman? How can they "swallow the flood?" I know they'll believe Satan but how does that help the woman? Unless....the woman in that verse isn't Israel, the body of Christ?

There are two women. Is it the great whore that the earth helps by believing Satan? :chin

Does the woman change from verse 12:15 to 16 and then back to the woman Israel in verse 17? Right now I'm studying the two beasts and how the serpent/dragon are connected to them and the verses switch back and forth between them...just like the "woman." So, I don't know. I'm open to suggestions. :gah

I think the woman is the same,,,but I just feel like im missing something obvious concerning earth,,,,, im going to go back and read the chp again,,its one of my favorites anyhow because of the great spand of time it covers.....
 
I think if we where meant to understand it , it was be in simple easy to understand text not a deep metaphoric language that we don't know after 1,920 years.

If the message of revelation is THAT important, why doesn't God tell us verbatim what is going to happen rather then knowingly let us all have different and wrong view points.
 
ChevyRodeo said:
I think if we where meant to understand it , it was be in simple easy to understand text not a deep metaphoric language that we don't know after 1,920 years.

If the message of revelation is THAT important, why doesn't God tell us verbatim what is going to happen rather then knowingly let us all have different and wrong view points.


Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. :-)
 
whirlwind said:
Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. :-)

Excellent quote in regards to how one gains wisdom.
 
whirlwind said:
  • Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

How? The flood the dragon cast out of his mouth is a flood of lies, deception, twisted scripture as he pretends to be Jesus. The woman, if the woman is the body of Christ, is helped by the earth opening her mouth. The earth is symbolic of those that don't believe in Jesus. So, what is the verse telling us?

I have wondererd if the woman mentioned there is not the body of Christ but is the "other woman."

Your thoughts.....

So, how does the earth 'help the woman'...? It opens it's mouth and swallows the LIES that come from Korah - the house of LEVI, and from Dathan & Abiram of the house of Ruben!

The story of Korah, of the tribe of LEVI, but not in the priesthood...together with 250 leaders of the congregation, assembled against Moses and Aaron and said, ....

  • Num 16:3 ...Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD? KJV

Compare with what God had told Moses to tell the Israel....they did not like what God said, and the lies from Korah sounded quite pleasing. Words of Moses...

  • Deut 9:6 ...for thou art a stiffnecked people.
    7 ....ye have been rebellious against the LORD. KJV

Israel being 'stiffnecked' and 'rebellious' doesn't sound like they are all 'HOLY' as stated by Korah. Not only that, they were saying Moses had appointed himself to lead the congregation. Moses falls on his face and tells them God will show them who is 'HOLY'

  • Num 16:5
    ...Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him. KJV

The story continues and Moses calls Dathan and Abiram, but they won't come, so Moses goes to them.
They tell Moses...

  • Num 16:13 Is it a small thing that thou hast brought us up out of a land that floweth with milk and honey, to kill us in the wilderness, except thou make thyself altogether a prince over us? KJV
Now Moses is 'angry' - 'wroth with them' - and says, 'tomorrow' God will make a 'new thing' v30 to happen that will show who has 'provoked the Lord'.

  • Numbers 16:32-33

    32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.

    33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. KJV

The story continues as more grumbling and complaining come forth, then God sends a 'plague' that kills 14,500 before the plague is checked.

  • Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. KJV
    Matt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. KJV
    Rev 11:18 ...destroy them which destroy the earth KJV

The EARTH, the body of our Lord, swallows DEATH... and HELPS the Woman ...

  • 1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. KJV
:amen
 
Ret said:
So, how does the earth 'help the woman'...? It opens it's mouth and swallows the LIES that come from Korah - the house of LEVI, and from Dathan & Abiram of the house of Ruben!

The story of Korah, of the tribe of LEVI, but not in the priesthood...together with 250 leaders of the congregation, assembled against Moses and Aaron and said, ....

  • Num 16:3 ...Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD? KJV

Compare with what God had told Moses to tell the Israel....they did not like what God said, and the lies from Korah sounded quite pleasing. Words of Moses...

  • Deut 9:6 ...for thou art a stiffnecked people.
    7 ....ye have been rebellious against the LORD. KJV

Israel being 'stiffnecked' and 'rebellious' doesn't sound like they are all 'HOLY' as stated by Korah. Not only that, they were saying Moses had appointed himself to lead the congregation. Moses falls on his face and tells them God will show them who is 'HOLY'

  • Num 16:5
    ...Even to morrow the LORD will shew who are his, and who is holy; and will cause him to come near unto him: even him whom he hath chosen will he cause to come near unto him. KJV

The story continues and Moses calls Dathan and Abiram, but they won't come, so Moses goes to them.
They tell Moses...

  • Num 16:13 Is it a small thing that thou hast brought us up out of a land that floweth with milk and honey, to kill us in the wilderness, except thou make thyself altogether a prince over us? KJV
Now Moses is 'angry' - 'wroth with them' - and says, 'tomorrow' God will make a 'new thing' v30 to happen that will show who has 'provoked the Lord'.

  • Numbers 16:32-33

    32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods.

    33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. KJV

The story continues as more grumbling and complaining come forth, then God sends a 'plague' that kills 14,500 before the plague is checked.

  • Matt 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. KJV
    Matt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. KJV
    Rev 11:18 ...destroy them which destroy the earth KJV

The EARTH, the body of our Lord, swallows DEATH... and HELPS the Woman ...

  • 1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. KJV
:amen

I love the connections you have made with being swallowed up. Death is swallowed up in victory but when does that happen? Is that the same event being written of in Revelation? The Corinthians verse is at the end of our flesh life but the Revelation verse is before that time....

  • Revelation 12:15-17 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The historical event in [Numbers 16] showed literal earth swallowing the wicked. It was our example of what will be. However, I don't see the earth being symbolic of Jesus, the body of the Lord. The earth and the sea are where the two beasts come from. Non-believers.

I think THE is on the right path. I considered the "flood" from the dragon's mouth as lies and deception, because it was from his mouth....but in Revelation we are told....

  • Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

So if the flood is a flood of "peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues," that follow Satan and the earth is also...unsaved people, then would this be a battle taking place. Would one side, the earth, have a war with the waters? Interestingly, the first beast was from the sea while the second beast was from the earth.

  • Revelation 12:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and the worshipped the beast, saying, "Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

And...is the earth (the land) helping the woman (Israel) the Ezekiel battle of Hamon-gog?

  • Ezekiel 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that My fury shall come up in My face. For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

How does the "earth open her mouth?" Could it be in the great shaking...an earthquake that swallows the armies from the north?
 
whirlwind said:
I love the connections you have made with being swallowed up. Death is swallowed up in victory but when does that happen? Is that the same event being written of in Revelation? The Corinthians verse is at the end of our flesh life but the Revelation verse is before that time....

To me, Corinthians does NOT sound like death is 'swallowed' at the end of our 'flesh life'....
  • 1 Cor 15:51-52
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. KJV
For those 'IN Christ', death is swallowed in/at the day of judgment. For those who are NOT 'IN Christ', death is 'swallowed' when all things are made 'NEW'! Then too, it is a MYSTERY, we keep searching out!
whirlwind said:
  • Revelation 12:15-17 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The historical event in [Numbers 16] showed literal earth swallowing the wicked. It was our example of what will be. However, I don't see the earth being symbolic of Jesus, the body of the Lord. The earth and the sea are where the two beasts come from. Non-believers.
In the next life...
  • Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. KJV

This is where I believe 'earth' = the body of the Lord
Though I do believe that 'sea' = unbelief/or non-believers

Too, I also believe 'earth' is claimed by the 'anti-christ' with a big profession - 'SAVE the EARTH!
This profession denies any need for the 'blood of Christ', that was spilled upon the earth!

whirlwind said:
I think THE is on the right path. I considered the "flood" from the dragon's mouth as lies and deception, because it was from his mouth....but in Revelation we are told....

  • Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Note 'water AS a FLOOD' ...AS = LIKE, similar in characteristics of a flood!
  • Revelation 12:15
    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman,
    that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

    Isaiah 59:19
    When the enemy shall come in like a flood,
    the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. KJV

whirlwind said:
And...is the earth (the land) helping the woman (Israel) the Ezekiel battle of Hamon-gog?

  • Ezekiel 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that My fury shall come up in My face. For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

How does the "earth open her mouth?" Could it be in the great shaking...an earthquake that swallows the armies from the north?
At least, in the right direction... :thumb
 
Ret said:
whirlwind said:
I love the connections you have made with being swallowed up. Death is swallowed up in victory but when does that happen? Is that the same event being written of in Revelation? The Corinthians verse is at the end of our flesh life but the Revelation verse is before that time....


To me, Corinthians does NOT sound like death is 'swallowed' at the end of our 'flesh life'....
  • 1 Cor 15:51-52
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. KJV
For those 'IN Christ', death is swallowed in/at the day of judgment. For those who are NOT 'IN Christ', death is 'swallowed' when all things are made 'NEW'! Then too, it is a MYSTERY, we keep searching out!


But isn't that after this age ends? Isn't it saying that when the change happens, at the 7th trumpet...then death is swallowed (for those in Christ, of the first resurrection)? My point is the swallowing is at a different time than when the earth swallows the flood. Aren't they two different events?

whirlwind said:
  • Revelation 12:15-17 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The historical event in [Numbers 16] showed literal earth swallowing the wicked. It was our example of what will be. However, I don't see the earth being symbolic of Jesus, the body of the Lord. The earth and the sea are where the two beasts come from. Non-believers.

In the next life...
  • Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. KJV

This is where I believe 'earth' = the body of the Lord
Though I do believe that 'sea' = unbelief/or non-believers

Too, I also believe 'earth' is claimed by the 'anti-christ' with a big profession - 'SAVE the EARTH!
This profession denies any need for the 'blood of Christ', that was spilled upon the earth!


:lol He sure does lay claim to that. The earth is a god to be worshipped.

whirlwind said:
I think THE is on the right path. I considered the "flood" from the dragon's mouth as lies and deception, because it was from his mouth....but in Revelation we are told....

  • Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Note 'water AS a FLOOD' ...AS = LIKE, similar in characteristics of a flood!
  • Revelation 12:15
    15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman,
    that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

    Isaiah 59:19
    When the enemy shall come in like a flood,
    the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.
    KJV


Leave it to you to find the perfect back-up Scripture! The "enemy as a flood." :salute
whirlwind said:
[quote:2wv1x8x2]
And...is the earth (the land) helping the woman (Israel) the Ezekiel battle of Hamon-gog?

  • Ezekiel 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that My fury shall come up in My face. For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

How does the "earth open her mouth?" Could it be in the great shaking...an earthquake that swallows the armies from the north?
whirlwind said:
At least, in the right direction... :thumb
[/quote:2wv1x8x2]


I don't understand...do you think it could be the answer?
 
whirlwind said:
Ret said:
To me, Corinthians does NOT sound like death is 'swallowed' at the end of our 'flesh life'....
  • 1 Cor 15:51-52
    51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. KJV
For those 'IN Christ', death is swallowed in/at the day of judgment. For those who are NOT 'IN Christ', death is 'swallowed' when all things are made 'NEW'! Then too, it is a MYSTERY, we keep searching out!

But isn't that after this age ends? Isn't it saying that when the change happens, at the 7th trumpet...then death is swallowed (for those in Christ, of the first resurrection)? My point is the swallowing is at a different time than when the earth swallows the flood. Aren't they two different events?
More like one of those mysteries one needs to 'ponder' and it will become more clear.

Whirlwind said:
Ret said:
whirlwind said:
And...is the earth (the land) helping the woman (Israel) the Ezekiel battle of Hamon-gog?

  • Ezekiel 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that My fury shall come up in My face. For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

How does the "earth open her mouth?" Could it be in the great shaking...an earthquake that swallows the armies from the north?[/b]
At least, in the right direction... :thumb
I don't understand...do you think it could be the answer?

While we look for some outward manifestation of 'the great shaking' - take FEAR, total helplessness, be it flood, tornado, earthquake, fire, war, famine, plague, etc., God has many ways to accomplish His purpose in 'shaking' what needs to be shaken. AND, with every fear, God also remembers His elect that need 'mercy'. When the FLOOD comes, the 'woman' cries to the Lord for help...He hears her cry! So, when the 'earth opens it's mouth' ....it does so - to HELP the WOMAN.

  • Ps 116:1 I love the LORD, because he hath
    heard my voice and my supplications. KJV

    Habakkuk 3:2 ...in wrath remember mercy. KJV

    Daniel 11:34 Now when they shall fall,
    they shall be holpen with a little help:
    but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. KJV
 
Ret said:
While we look for some outward manifestation of 'the great shaking' - take FEAR, total helplessness, be it flood, tornado, earthquake, fire, war, famine, plague, etc., God has many ways to accomplish His purpose in 'shaking' what needs to be shaken. AND, with every fear, God also remembers His elect that need 'mercy'. When the FLOOD comes, the 'woman' cries to the Lord for help...He hears her cry! So, when the 'earth opens it's mouth' ....it does so - to HELP the WOMAN.

  • Ps 116:1 I love the LORD, because he hath
    heard my voice and my supplications. KJV

    Habakkuk 3:2 ...in wrath remember mercy. KJV

    Daniel 11:34 Now when they shall fall,
    they shall be holpen with a little help:
    but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. KJV


I'm going back and forth on whether this is spiritual or literal. One of those "ponder" things. :-)
 
Man, the gainsay of Korah sure fits the 'TYPE' Rev.12 is talking about involving deception to another way and doctrine. I think the Isaiah 8 idea is very relative especially for Rev.12 example. Look more closely at the Rev.12 example...

Rev 12:15-16
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
(KJV)

I see the metaphor of the flood (of lies) being more linked to the time of Noah and the ark. Who were carried away by the flood waters in Noah's day? It wasn't Noah and those aboard the ark, for they were preserved THROUGH the flood, God Himself having sealed them inside the ark. (Remember the sealing by God of His servants in Revelation).

And what happenned to the waters of the flood when they were abated? Even though Gen.8 does not say the earth literally swallowed up the waters, I think one can safely assume a good portion of the waters were taken in by the earth. That event of the waters being abated off the earth I think represents the event of Rev.12:16 with the earth helping the woman (Israel). The earth swallowing up the gainsayers of Korah also fits that as a symbol (very well I must say).

Let's not forget the plagues of Revelation, their timing, because when all the seals, trumpets, and vials are compared together, the picture is that the vials happen within the trumpet timing, like in between trumpets. In other words, Satan's flood is defeated little by little during, until the dragon becomes angry and tries to destroy God's people all at once at the end (when he brings the armies of Gog and Magog upon Israel in final, and God pours out His cup of wrath upon them, with the "last trump" change happenning at the same time ushering us into Christ's Milennium reign).

So the situation of Rev.12 involving the flood as a symbol for Satan's lies, shows two groups of people, those taken in by the flood, and those of God's people preserved through it, like those in the ark.


Now about the timing of when death is swallowed up in victory, that is when the "last trump" (7th) sounds at Christ's return, and ALL on earth are changed at a twinkling of an eye, the vail of Isaiah 25 being removed, and the Heavenly being revealed to all nations. That's supposed to happen at an instant. The very last verse of Rev.12:17, with the dragon becoming wroth at the woman shows his coming up against Israel in final to destroy.

Deeper study of 1 Cor.15 reveals death is swallowed up in victory for those in Christ Jesus. But the Isaiah 25 version (where Paul was pulling from), is not as specific, pointing to the vail cast upon all nations being removed. 1 Cor.15 (per the Greek) reveals all will go through the change from our present bodies to the "spiritual body", but with one major difference for some. Some will still be in a condition ("this mortal") that's liable to perish, still subject to the "second death" of casting into the lake of fire at the end of Christ's reign. Can't really say death is swallowed up in victory for them, because they will still be under the power of death, the "second death". But with their change to a body of incorruption, would that be a type of death being swallowed up in victory for them? (but not the one that counts unto Eternal Life through Christ Jesus).
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veteran said:
Man, the gainsay of Korah sure fits the 'TYPE' Rev.12 is talking about involving deception to another way and doctrine. I think the Isaiah 8 idea is very relative especially for Rev.12 example. Look more closely at the Rev.12 example...

Rev 12:15-16
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
(KJV)

I see the metaphor of the flood (of lies) being more linked to the time of Noah and the ark. Who were carried away by the flood waters in Noah's day? It wasn't Noah and those aboard the ark, for they were preserved THROUGH the flood, God Himself having sealed them inside the ark. (Remember the sealing by God of His servants in Revelation).

And what happenned to the waters of the flood when they were abated? Even though Gen.8 does not say the earth literally swallowed up the waters, I think one can safely assume a good portion of the waters were taken in by the earth. That event of the waters being abated off the earth I think represents the event of Rev.12:16 with the earth helping the woman (Israel). The earth swallowing up the gainsayers of Korah also fits that as a symbol (very well I must say).

Let's not forget the plagues of Revelation, their timing, because when all the seals, trumpets, and vials are compared together, the picture is that the vials happen within the trumpet timing, like in between trumpets. In other words, Satan's flood is defeated little by little during, until the dragon becomes angry and tries to destroy God's people all at once at the end (when he brings the armies of Gog and Magog upon Israel in final, and God pours out His cup of wrath upon them, with the "last trump" change happenning at the same time ushering us into Christ's Milennium reign).

I'm with you, especially the Isaiah 8 mention, but question the vials being poured "between trumpets." How do you see that?


So the situation of Rev.12 involving the flood as a symbol for Satan's lies, shows two groups of people, those taken in by the flood, and those of God's people preserved through it, like those in the ark.


Now about the timing of when death is swallowed up in victory, that is when the "last trump" (7th) sounds at Christ's return, and ALL on earth are changed at a twinkling of an eye, the vail of Isaiah 25 being removed, and the Heavenly being revealed to all nations. That's supposed to happen at an instant. The very last verse of Rev.12:17, with the dragon becoming wroth at the woman shows his coming up against Israel in final to destroy.

Deeper study of 1 Cor.15 reveals death is swallowed up in victory for those in Christ Jesus. But the Isaiah 25 version (where Paul was pulling from), is not as specific, pointing to the vail cast upon all nations being removed. 1 Cor.15 (per the Greek) reveals all will go through the change from our present bodies to the "spiritual body", but with one major difference for some. Some will still be in a condition ("this mortal") that's liable to perish, still subject to the "second death" of casting into the lake of fire at the end of Christ's reign. Can't really say death is swallowed up in victory for them, because they will still be under the power of death, the "second death". But with their change to a body of incorruption, would that be a type of death being swallowed up in victory for them? (but not the one that counts unto Eternal Life through Christ Jesus).
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Dear Veteran..... :-)

I'm not certain about the vials being poured between trumpets and need to spend more time looking at that. I have to tell you...you are one of the very few that see 1 Corinthians as you do. I see everyone being changed into a spiritual body too but it is always met with such resistance. Many believe flesh people are still populating the earth.

It is a pleasure to read your posts. Even if we don't agree on everything...we agree on a great deal and I admire your scholarship, as well as your spiritual eyes. I learn from you as I do from Ret. Thank you both.
 
I was just writing another post about how the different translations can really change His Word and look what is there.....


  • Daniel 9:26-27 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Is that the flood the dragon and the serpent cast out. Are they two different floods...one from the mouth of the serpent [12:15]and the other from the mouth of the dragon[12:16]? That is saying something that needs to be understood but it too is another sticky note, added to the others on my Bible, for me to study. The difference in the role of the serpent and role of the dragon...both being Satan.

Just another piece of the puzzle to consider
..... :-)
 
whirlwind said:
I'm with you, especially the Isaiah 8 mention, but question the vials being poured "between trumpets." How do you see that?

Maybe not all the vials, but certain ones, like the 6th and 7th vials...

Rev 16:12-15
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

That 6th vial is in prep for battle. The gathering to Christ hasn't happened yet at that point.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

So the 6th vial is in association with the 6th trumpet timing (Rev.9), the 7th trumpet and vial not yet.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(KJV)

Then a warning of Christ's coming and the pouring out of His wrath upon the wicked is next, i.e., the 7th trumpet and 7th vial. This reveals the saints are still alive on earth when those 6th and 7th vials are poured out upon Christ's enemies. The first vial does specifically show it's a timing either during or after the mark and worship of the image of beast.


Dear Veteran..... :-)

I'm not certain about the vials being poured between trumpets and need to spend more time looking at that. I have to tell you...you are one of the very few that see 1 Corinthians as you do. I see everyone being changed into a spiritual body too but it is always met with such resistance. Many believe flesh people are still populating the earth.

It is a pleasure to read your posts. Even if we don't agree on everything...we agree on a great deal and I admire your scholarship, as well as your spiritual eyes. I learn from you as I do from Ret. Thank you both.

No problem. But do try to check out the events of the vials in relation to the trumpet events. There's a parallel.

Many are not taught to look up those four KJV words of 1 Cor.15:53 in the Greek. I didn't realize it either until I was led to it. What our Lord Jesus said in John 5 about two TYPES of resurrection conditions occurring at the same time of His coming also agrees with what Paul was teaching there in 1 Cor.15 about all being changed at Christ's coming, the unjust included. In Acts 24:15 Paul said it was his hope there would be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust. Paul didn't mean that resurrection for the wicked being just so they could be raised at the end of the thousand years to be thrown into the lake of fire. I believe his hope for their being resurrected too was that at least some of them might be saved.

Notice in Rev.20:12 that the "dead" stand in judgment before God after the thousand years. Don't you think there's a reason why they are still called "dead" while standing before God?

I think many have a difficult time thinking about the difference between the earthly and the heavenly as two dimensions. Honestly, I've never had that difficulty. It's always been easy for me to fathom the existence of the heavenly in contrast to this earthly dimension. Yet thinking about the heavenly dimension scares a lot of people, when it really shouldn't.

This is why I see a connection with what our Lord Jesus and His Apostles taught about being born of water and of The Spirit as a requirement to Christ's Salvation, and in relation to the "new creature" idea, the "sons of God" idea, our Lord's declaration that in the resurrection they are as the angels of God in Heaven, etc. Some tend to think of those ideas in the 'religious' sense only, not fully understanding how those ideas involve a real literal change to our soul's condition inside our bodies.

When our Lord compared the blind scribes and Pharisees to whited sepulchres that appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones, He was revealing the idea of their soul inside being spiritually 'dead'. That idea is in direct relation to the resurrection of the unjust, their soul condition will still be in a spiritually dead condition after Christ's coming (Greek thnetos in 1 Cor.15:53, liable to die), while their flesh will have put on a body of incorruption. Rev.3:9 reveals the resurrected unjust will come to worship Christ at the feet of His elect. So that definitely means the wicked will be raised too in order to bow to Christ Jesus during His thousand years reign.
 
whirlwind said:
I was just writing another post about how the different translations can really change His Word and look what is there.....


  • Daniel 9:26-27 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Is that the flood the dragon and the serpent cast out. Are they two different floods...one from the mouth of the serpent [12:15]and the other from the mouth of the dragon[12:16]? That is saying something that needs to be understood but it too is another sticky note, added to the others on my Bible, for me to study. The difference in the role of the serpent and role of the dragon...both being Satan.

Just another piece of the puzzle to consider
..... :-)

Yeah, that's the way I see it too. Recall per Rev.12:9 "that old serpent" is just another title for the "dragon", A.K.A. Satan. So it's all about one particular flood, even the flood metaphor in Isaiah 8.

Isa 8:7-17
7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:


On a deeper note, we're supposed to recognize Scripture like Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 31 of how God uses the flesh king of Assyria as a 'type' for Satan. The end of Isaiah 30 is notable also. Isaiah 10 shows how the king of Assyria was to come upon Jerusalem out of the north, town by town. So if our Heavenly Father gave the king of Assyria as a type for Satan, then these Scripture examples also serve as what for the latter days? Paul mentioned the idea of "ensamples" in 1 Cor.10.

8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

This was history, but as an "ensample" for us today at the end. (What hath been shall be again; Eccl.1).

9 Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.
10 Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.


That's about the idea of nation joining. Are we seeing that type of event today, with nations joining together under the idea of world peace and globalization? God is saying it's going to come to nothing.

11 For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,
12 "Say ye not, 'A confederacy', to all them to whom this people shall say, 'A confederacy'; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.


What's that idea of a "confederacy" about? Well, what's the subject of the previous verses about associating theirselves? It's nation joining. We are not to fear it, nor agree with it, nor join in with those who are for it. For world globalism to work, can't really have a bunch of people against it. Globalists will require everyone to get on board their version of the world peace wagon to establish their one world government system over all nations on earth, in prep for their world king.

13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts Himself; and let Him be your fear, and let Him be your dread.

Instead, The LORD Himself is to be our fear and dread (reverence, love and respect).

14 And He shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.


The LORD will be our sanctuary during these times, but a stumbling upon the deceived. Many will find it too difficult to stand against the dragon and false worship of his image. Sadly, those will include many from both 'houses', the "house of Israel" (ten tribes), and the "house of Judah" (three tribes). There's the "taken" idea our Lord was really talking about in Luke 17, i.e., taken in deception to the coming "strong delusion". We're supposed to be the ones left in the field (world) working for Christ when He does return, like the wise steward of Luke 12.

16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among My disciples.
17 And I will wait upon the LORD, That hideth His face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for Him.
(KJV)


In the end of days, who will stand strong in Christ ready with His Testimony while the majority of the world will be against that Testimony? Recall those of Rev.12:11 and 12:17. The type of preaching in deceived Churches today is a socialist version of The Gospel, one that fits globalist doctrines instead of staying true to that Testimony being talked about above.
 
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