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A special Salvation

The Scriptures never tell us.

How convenient.

I love humanity because God created us for a purpose.

Indeed, but what happens if we don't fulfill that purpose, and infact oppose it, denying our very creator?

Everything God creates has value.

What you are leaving out is what value is measured against. God gave every human talents and gifts (as part of his natural grace) but what we do with them (and whether we accept Jesus as Lord or not), witnessed by our fruits, determines what ultimate value we hold after we die.

Consider the parable of the talents:

Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

After a long time, the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. “Master,†he said, “you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.â€Â

His master replied, “Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!â€Â

The man with the two talents also came. “Master,†he said, “you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.â€Â

His master replied, “Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!â€Â

Then the man who had received the one talent came. “Master,†he said, “I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.â€Â

His master replied, “You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

“Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.â€Â

Matthew 25:14-30 (NIV)

Value either increases or decreases. Just doing good deeds though won't cut it.

"What man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!" (Matthew 7:9)

Evil people can do good deeds, but self-righteous deeds will never attain the purity and holiness that God requires of us. That is why we must accept Jesus, who graciously offers us atonement for our sins when we fail and empowers us to live a truely righteous life. But without God our "righteousness" is as filthy rags.

What is the difference then between when you did good deeds towards men before you got saved and doing them after you are saved? The difference is that you now do them unto the Lord and His Righteousness. Paul said that he considered everything that he had done zealously before he was converted as "loss" and "rubbish":

" 7But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.
" (Philippians 3:7-9)

How did Paul find this ultimate fulfillment of his "value"? He found that he had no value outside of Christ, and he "gain[ed] Christ" by seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness (Matthew 6:33).

So you claiming that humans have some innate, worthy, immutable value that because of which God could never condemn humans is a futile thought if one considers such to be so outside of Christ. Without Christ we are nothing, but as long as we are on this earth God loves us enough to seek after us to bring us to himself so that he can provide salvation to everyone, to give them an everlasting value. But for those who reject God there is not allotment in Heaven for them with God.

I refuse to believe God created some to burn for all eternity.

That doesn't change the temperature of hell one degree.

"Why were a few, or a single one, made at all, if only to exist in order to be made eternally miserable, which is infinitely worse than non-existence?" –Immanuel Kant, “End of All Thingsâ€Â

Kant cannot be viewed as some authority on the Bible. I don't care if his first name is Immanuel. Interesting musings perhaps, but I would not put worldly philosophy over good doctrine and theology.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." (Colossians 2:8)

God Bless,

Josh
 
Here's a question for you: are there any words (Hebrew or Greek) in the Bible which denote eternity such as "forever" or "everlasting" etc...?

If not then why not? For example, I personally can't picture when God the Father said to Jesus "You are High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek" that "forever" means a term with and ending especially since it is contrasted with the temporal Old Testament priesthood which was a mere shadow of the things to come.

I'm just wondering at the extent that you are pushing this "no eternity" interpretation on the Bible.

What you are doing here is trying to change the meaning of the word because you cannot grasp how it cannot mean eternity and God is not speaking in Eternities. The word is what it is, not what you want it to be. Is God suddenly not God because he says Eonian instead of Eternal? Is he not God if He doesn't torture people?

How convenient.

Don't blame me on this. I didn't write the book.

Indeed, but what happens if we don't fulfill that purpose, and infact oppose it, denying our very creator?

If God is omnipotent and eternal, then I can't see why He'd give up on a single soul. He can wait. Death is not the line in the sand, no reason it should stop an Omnipotent God.

What you are leaving out is what value is measured against. God gave every human talents and gifts (as part of his natural grace) but what we do with them (and whether we accept Jesus as Lord or not), witnessed by our fruits, determines what ultimate value we hold after we die.

God condemning people to hell for disobedience is like you condemning one of your Children to a life of torture. At least the human torture will end.

You say to your child, "Listen Son, I love you with all of my heart but once you hit 18 years (a comparison to dying), if you disobey me I can never forgive you and will have to torture you for the rest of your life. A line in the sand must be draw. I want you never to disobey me but if you do I must torture you. Understand?"

That doesn't change the temperature of hell one degree.

his gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

2. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms. Teresa Banyan during my freshman year,

"...that it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you."

And take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded in having sexual relations with her,
then, #2 cannot be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and will not freeze.

Kant cannot be viewed as some authority on the Bible. I don't care if his first name is Immanuel. Interesting musings perhaps, but I would not put worldly philosophy over good doctrine and theology.

I bet you still can't answer it though. :P


I just remembered another interesting question I want to give to you.

Do babies go to heaven or hell?

If babies go to hell when they die, no Christian should have any, because one fatality and you are responsible for their eternity in Hell.

If babies go to heaven when they die, why don't we kill them and give them a free ride to eternal bliss.
 
The topic of universal salvation was banned from discussion ...not sure if it still is or not.
Well, in revamping the rules, we omitted the No UR debates rule... but, there was a stickey in this very forum that addressed this issue. In a restore of the database, the sticky didn't make it back to it's proper place. Believe me, I will rectify that.

Now, for those of you who are unaware of why we don't discuss it here anymore:

Of course it would make sense to you. It will fit your Mason and ying and yang theology.
And Now let us read the same scripture from a correctly translated Bible, that translates directly from the Original Greek into English, with out making an interpretation influenced by a Doctrine a translater was influenced by....
Give it up and just accept that the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures do not support Eternal Damnation. Any idiot can see that the adjective of a word mean "Eon" DOES NOT MEAN ETERNAL!

All we would have are pages and pages of insults and such, with no meaningful dialouge whatsoever and a whole lot of verse "tag teaming". Both sides take the meaning of much of the passages to the extreme, which is why I tend to lean toward annihilation. :P
 
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