A Study on Antichrist.

[brakelite2]

Mindful of the fact that the thread may be transferred later as the discussion develops, I have placed this topic in here because it is essentially a Bible study, and I desire that it not develop into anything but.
Before we look at the antichrist, I want to look at the real Christ. Who is He? Let us go to the scriptures to find out what and Who He claimed to be.

Mathew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

The temple, the priesthood, and the religious system of the Jewish nation go hand in hand. It was the mainstay and focal point of the life of Israel. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater. Greater even than the very High priest who no doubt would take great interest in hearing a report of these words.

38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Jonah was the most powerful and successful of all OT prophets. In all 40 odd chapters of Jeremiah, there is no record of anyone at anytime taking the slightest bit of notice of anything Jeremiah said. Yet Jonah, on the strength of just one or two sermons, converted an entire city of the children of Ishmael totaling maybe 60,000 people. Nineveh. By any standards, that has got to be recorded as a very successful evangelistic campaign. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater than Jonah.

42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Solomon was the wisest and wealthiest and most successful of any ruler of the ancient world. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater even than Solomon.

In the three startling claims as shown above, we have before us the threefold ministry of Jesus. Priest, prophet, and King.


It has been said, and I think wisely, that the Bible must be understood grammatically before it can be understood theologically. Anti- as in antichrist, according to Strong's concordance, and like other words having the prefix 'anti', means at it's most basic form "in the room of", "instead of", or "in the place of".
In other words, 'antichrist' stands as a substitute. We all know that Satan works by deception. Yet many would claim the 'antichrist' will be one who will charge in on a black horse guns blazing with fury and hatred directed at all things Christian and opposing with great force the church. Pray tell me, how will the world be decieved by such a tactic as this?
In 2 Thess. 2:1 we are told that there was to be a falling away first, which will reveal the antichrist, or as Paul describes him, the man of sin or son of perdition. Now falling away in this instance is a falling into apostasy; divorce.
Any divorce necessitates a prior favourable relationship. Therefore, this falling away is of a church that was at one time held in favor and was God's true people upon earth, and it was this falling away of a once true church that was once faithful but through spiritual adultery with the kings of the earth, has proven herself unfaithful and thus is divorced herself from Christ. By so doing the antichrist, the son of perdition, is revealed.
The only other example of a 'son of perdition' is Judas Iscariot. Did Judas openly and with force oppose Christ? Did he attack His teachings and disagree with Jesus claims to divinity? Did he argue and debate everything Jesus stood for and seek the destruction of His followers? No. Not by any means. Judas betrayed Jesus with a kiss. He betrayed Him with an act of apparent love, fellowship, and friendship. He undermined and betrayed Jesus at the same time as claiming Him to be his friend!! This squares perfectly with the meaning of antichrist. He is not an opposer, but a subtle imposter. A counterfeit. An imposter of Jesus Christ. A false copy, or forgery of the true.
Antichrist is therefore a person or power who impersonates the offices of Priesthood, the Prophet or spokesmanship, and the Kingly rule of Christ. The office that ministers for God, speaks for God, and rules for God.

Satan has many counterfeits. Now counterfeits are almost identical to the true. You do not get counterfeit 99$ notes. You get counterfeit 100$ notes. And unless you get trained and disciplined to know intimately the true 100$ note, you will not recognise the false. It has been estimated that every person in America who has regularly handled 100$ notes, has had pass through their hands a counterfeit at least 4 times a year! And not known it!!!! Unless you are intimately acquainted with the true Jesus, how will you recognise the counterfeit?

In Revelation 14 God has the final message of warning that His people must deliver before He comes. It is entitled the everlasting gospel. It is shown as being preached by 3 angels, This is figurative, for it is the responsibility of the church to preach the gospel. It however can be understood that angels are directing and overseeing the preaching. Satan however has a counterfeit message. We see this in
Revelation 16:13,14. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

This is a threefold message of demons opposing and deceiving the world at the time of the end.
Another counterfeit is the trinity. We see the two trinities opposing one another throughout the book of Revelation. On the one side the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. On the other, the dragon or Satan, the sea-beast or antichrist in Rev 13, and the land-beast or false prophet of the same chapter. Let us look at some of the parallels, with particular interest on the sea-beast.

Dragon/Satan.
His place in heaven (Rev 12:3,7,8.)
He has a throne. (Rev 13:2, 2:13)
Gives throne, power, and authority to sea-beast. (13:2,4.)
He is worshipped. (13:4a)
Destroyed forever. (20:9,10)

Now compare:
God the Father
Dwelling in heaven (Rev 4,5)
He has a throne. (4:5; 7:9-15; 19:4)
Gives throne, power and authority to Jesus. (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27; 3:21; chapters 4,5.)
Is worshipped. (Rev 4:10; 15:4)
Lives and reign forever. (4:9; 5:13; 11:15)


The Land-beast or false prophet.
Called the false prophet because he decieves people with regards to religious matters. (16:13; 19:20; 20:10)
Lamb-like. (13:11)
Exercises all authority of sea-beast. (13:12a)
Directs worship to sea-beast. (13:12b,15)
Performs signs. (13:13; 19:20)
Brings fire down from heaven (13:13)
Gives breath/life to beasts image (13:15)
Applies mark of beast. (13:16)

Now compare:
The Holy Spirit
Called the Spirit of truth guiding people. (Jn 16:13 Rev 22:17)
Christ-like. (Jn 1426; 16:14)
Exercises authority of Christ (Jn 16:13,14)
Directs worship to Christ (Acts 5:29-32)
Fire from heaven at Pentecost (Acts 2)
Instills life to us, the image of Christ. (Romans8:11,29)
Applies seal of God. (2 Cor 1:22 Eph 1:13 4:30 Rev 7:3,4.)

The sea-beast or antichrist.
Comes from water to begin activity. (13:1)
Resembles dragon. (12:13 13:1)
Ten diadems. (13:1)
Ten horns (13:1)
Receives power throne and authority from dragon/Satan. (13:2,4)
42 months of activity in first phase. (13:5)
Was slain (13:3)
Resurrected (13:3)
Receives worship after healing (13:3,4,8)

Now compare:
Jesus Christ
Comes from water to begin ministry (Luke 3:21-23)
Resembles Father (Jn 14:19)
Many diadems (Rev 19:12)
Lamb has 7 horns (5:6)
Receives power throne and authority from His Father (Math 28:18 Rev 2:27 Chapters 4,5)
42 months of ministry in initial phase. (Gospel of John)
Was slain (Rev 5:6)
Was resurrected (Rev1:18)
Received worship after resurrection (Math 28:17)

So how does the above sea-beast or antichrist counterfeit the threefold ministry of the true Christ, as Priest, Prophet and King? Is there an entity in the world today who claims to do just this? Is there one like Judas who is betraying the Master with a kiss, all the while claiming to be a friend? Is there in the world today a religious system or religious ruler who claims to be the earthly representative of Christ as His priest, claiming to be a mediator between God and man? Claiming to forgive sin even?
Does this entity also claim the prerogatives of a prophet? Does it claim to speak for God in spiritual matters? Does it claim to stand as God's spokesman
on earth and claim that only through it's authority can salvation be found?
And finally, does this entity also claim to be a king? Does it claim authority as a secular power? Does it exercise authority and power within the auspices of a church/state relationship?

The answer my friends to all the above questions is a firm yes.There is an entity in the world today who claims all the above Godly prerogatives which belong only to Jesus Christ. Priest, prophet and king.This entity has set itself up as counterfeit and thus can be affirmatively identified as the antichrist, the impostor and impersonator of the true. And this entity can be found in the Roman Catholic church system.
Now you may think that I have posted this with the sole intent of 'Catholic bashing.' This is not so. I was once of that faith for nearly half my lifetime, and have many friends and family still in that denomination. I firmly believe that many Catholics are sincere and devout and genuine Christians, but I say this that they are so because of the grace of God and despite the organization they are affiliated with rather than because of it.
Any discussion on the above study and criticism is welcome, but let us leave it at that shall we. If from the Bible you can prove to me that the RCC cannot be identified as the antichrist, then please feel free. God has given us these scriptures as a warning that we may not be deceived. The entire end-time scenario is one of loyalty and worship. To whom are we in submission to? That is the ultimate question wwe must all answer and the Bible is our only refuge.

 

[Christian Heretic]

It has been said, and I think wisely, that the Bible must be understood grammatically before it can be understood theologically.

When giving advice one should also follow that advice themselves. One more rule that is always helpful is to never ignore God's own interpretation in favor of your own.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many Antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is Antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of Antichrist,whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an Antichrist.

In these Scriptures God gives us His own definition of who the Antichrist is.

The definition of who the Antichrist is that God provides to us is:

Those who deny that Jesus the Christ has come in the Flesh, this is the Antichrist.

Now there is a cup full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication that the RCC must and will answer to God for but denying that Jesus the Christ has come in the flesh is not one of them.

Why is it impossible for the RCC to deny that Jesus the Christ has come in the flesh? Because if the RCC ever denied that Jesus the Christ has come in the flesh it would no longer have any reason to exist.

As our Lord testified "the Scriptures can not be broken," therefore by God's own definition of who the Antichrist is the RCC can not possibly be the Antichrist as you contend. The RCC has never in its history denied that Jesus the Christ has come in the flesh.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken;

Yes I know you will totally ignore God's definition of His own Words and through microscopic forensic analysis of words attempt to defend your interpretation as correct but that is simply an act of desperation.

It is never wise to attempt to overturn God's unambiguous meaning in favor of one's own private interpretation. While it is possible for a verse to have a deeper or Spiritual meaning, the deeper or Spiritual meaning never ever overturns the original unambiguous understanding of the verse rather both interpretations are always true for God can not lie and has no variableness in His Person or His Word.

1Ti 6:4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strife's of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation.

Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

All that is required to establish anything God has said in Scriptures is too have two or three witnesses, yet God gives us four witnesses in the Scriptures to His definition of who the Antichrist is .

Why does God give us here more witnesses then He Himself requires? Because God wanted His children to be absolutely sure as to His unambiguous intent and meaning concerning who the Antichrist is.

2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

 

[Rick W]

Terms of Service #3
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9219

Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum only. Do not start new topics or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.

brakelite2,
If you could edit out references of the RCC references then you can start another topic with the edited post. I'll leave this here for a time but tonight it will be moved to Dead Threads.


Thank You

 

[Vic C.]

After discussing this with Rick, it was decided this can be discussed in the End Times Forum. I feel that is the proper forum for it. I realize how prevalent your view is Brakelite and it's best we discuss it there.

Note, this IS NOT a license to bash the RCC in the End Times forum nor is it a license for our RCC members to lash back. Discuss civilly or else... :armed

 

[brakelite2]

I am fully aware of the intensity of feelings this discussion can generate,that is why I put it in Bible study . My wish was that by concentrating on what the Bible has to say and only then making the identification, based on sound Biblical analysis, we might avoid the personal barbs this topic so often brings.

Christian heretic, I would like to address your challenge. This is not the first time I have seen this objection, and the answer is in the understanding of what John meant by the word 'flesh'.
Paul speaks often of the flesh, and the carnal nature. This being the fallen nature we all inherit from Adam as members of the human race, and it is this nature which must be crucified in Christ enabling us to be born again. It is this nuance of the word 'flesh' that John meant. He was saying that the antichrist would deny that Jesus was born with the fallen nature of Adam, but rather the unfallen nature.
Now this is vitally important to us, as how we understand this doctrine effects how we live our lives today.
The RCC teaches the doctrine of original sin. By this, at least to my understanding, is meant that all who are born of the human race inherit the guilt and culpability of Adam's sin. I do not intend to go into the rights and wrongs of this doctrine here. However, what that means is that in order for Jesus to be guiltless and sinless, then the RCC teaches that Jesus was of necessity born with Adam's unfallen nature. To accomplish this they have had to invent the "immaculate conception" of Mary. Thus the claim is that Jesus was not born of the 'flesh', as everyone else is.
Thus Jesus had an advantage over us, and therefore could not be our example. This is wrong.
Jesus was born with Adam's fallen nature, as shown by Paul.

Romans 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The upshot of all this is that the RCC does teach that Christ did not come in the flesh.

 

[Christian Heretic]

Christian heretic, I would like to address your challenge. This is not the first time I have seen this objection, and the answer is in the understanding of what John meant by the word 'flesh'.
Paul speaks often of the flesh, and the carnal nature. This being the fallen nature we all inherit from Adam as members of the human race, and it is this nature which must be crucified in Christ enabling us to be born again. It is this nuance of the word 'flesh' that John meant. He was saying that the antichrist would deny that Jesus was born with the fallen nature of Adam, but rather the unfallen nature.Spirit.

While i think this is an wonderful attempt at misdirection once again you attempt to make the forensic analysis of a word, what you term nuance, override the plain unambiguous meaning of the text.
This is always error for God does not vary and is incapable of lying thus a single word can not have a different meaning from the verse itself. The following verse makes plain that the spirit of the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ or more correctly, deny that Jesus is the Messiah.

1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

The Holy Spirit is very plain in the above verse, DENIAL THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST or more correctly, DENIAL THAT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH this is what the Holy Spirit through John is specifically speaking about. This verse can not oppose the other verses concerning the Antichrist thus the other verse must also speak too the Antichrist denying that Jesus is the Messiah.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

In the above verse John is speaking about the exact same thing but it is more difficult to see because most Christians today are not well versed in the Scriptures. Thus we tend by default to think that Jesus Christ is simply a name just like John Smith. This is not true.

Jesus Christ is more then a name it is a TITLE and as such should always be written as such. The correct way to write this TITLE is: JESUS THE MESSIAH

Let us look at the above verse with this TITLE spelled out.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that JESUS THE MESSIAH is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Now it is easier to see the Truth revealed in this verse. The spirit of Antichrist is intent on only one thing and that is to deceive people into believing that the True Messiah has yet to come in the flesh.

And as our Lord said the Scriptures can not be broken.

 

[brakelite2]

Like I said, the RCC teaches that Jesus the Messiah has not come in the flesh.
Throughout the existence of Israel most women have held the hope that maybe they would be the one chosen to give birth to the coming Messiah. Particularly those of the house of David, it was to the tribe of Judah and the house of David that the prophecies were directed. And that is the point. The RCC teaches thatJesus did not come from the line of David at all. But rather through some intricacies
involving the conception of Mary, it is claimed He came direct from the unfallen nature of Adam.

We here in NZ have recently elected a new prime minister just as you have elected a new president. If I should verbally confess that indeed John Key is the prime minister, but by my actions usurp his authority somehow accepting honor and respect that should rightly go only to him, am I not denying him by my actions, regardless of my words, and thus denying his office of prime minister? Would you not also be denying your president if by some act of rebellion you usurp his authority and accept from the public obessience and honour that belongs only to him? Would you not be denying his presidential office and authority?

Is that not what the papacy is doing? By usurping the prerogatives that belong only to God, regardless of their confession, are they not denying Him? By claiming the pope, priests, Mary and saints as mediators are they not removing Jesus from His rightful office and thus denying Him? The claim to have the authority to forgive sin, is that not God's domain? As for the giving of indulgences for sin...? So if by removing Jesus from the correct understanding of His nature, that is being born of sinful flesh, (though without sin) as of the line of David thus ratifying and verifying His Messiahship, are the apologists for the papacy denying that very Messiahship? And not only that title, but the ones mentioned previously, that of king, prophet and priest?

 

[Christian Heretic]

Is that not what the papacy is doing? By usurping the prerogatives that belong only to God, regardless of their confession, are they not denying Him? By claiming the pope, priests, Mary and saints as mediators are they not removing Jesus from His rightful office and thus denying Him? The claim to have the authority to forgive sin, is that not God's domain? As for the giving of indulgences for sin...? So if by removing Jesus from the correct understanding of His nature, that is being born of sinful flesh, (though without sin) as of the line of David thus ratifying and verifying His Messiahship, are the apologists for the papacy denying that very Messiahship? And not only that title, but the ones mentioned previously, that of king, prophet and priest?
"When religion is good,it will take care of itself; when it is not able to take care of itself, and God does not see fit to take care of it, so that it has to appeal to the civil power for support, it is evidence to my mind it's cause is a bad one."
Benjamin Franklin.

Now we arrive at the stumbling stone in this discussion.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DENYING THE CHRIST AND DENYING THAT THE CHRIST HAS EVER COME IN THE FLESH?

This is a stumbling stone because historically traditional Christendom has treated both phrases as meaning exactly the same thing when in fact they are very different.

This is why God repeats His definition of who the ANTICHRIST is four times so we will not confuse it with those who DENY the CHRIST by falling away or corrupting the faith.

Let us deal with DENYING the CHRIST first, for with it we are presently much more familiar.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 26:34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
Mat 26:35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Mar 14:72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

In each passage above one can see that for someone to DENY the CHRIST they must first have confessed Christ; that is have known or accepted He is the Christ.

Based on the context and usage in Scripture for someone to DENY the CHRIST, they must first have known or accepted He is the Christ and then fallen away either in word or by their corrupting of the faith while claiming to be still in the faith.

This includes the RCC who DENIES the CHRIST in their words and actions while at the same time acknowledging that the Christ has come in the flesh with their lips. This is proven by the fact that the RCC does not look forward to another Christ to come in place of the Christ who is testified to in the New Testament.Tit 1:16

Now let us see if I can, with the help of the Holy Spirit, show you how DENYING THAT THE CHRIST HAS COME IN THE FLESH differs from the above explanation and why God sees this as important to us.

NOTE:
At the second coming of THE CHRIST, THE MESSIAH, He will not return in the flesh to minister upon this earth but rather He will return in His incorruptible body of the Son of God and those who are saved will meet Him in the air. 1Th 4:15-17

So when the Scriptures speak of THE CHRIST, THE MESSIAH, COMING IN THE FLESH it is speaking about THE FIRST ADVENT OF THE CHRIST’S WALK UPON ON THE EARTH AS A LAMB OF GOD AND NOT HIS SECOND ADVENT WHEN HE RETURNS AS THE REINING KING AND EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM.

The spirit of Antichrist deceives people into believing that the Christ, the Messiah has never come at all and thus they must look for the First coming of THE CHRIST, THE MESSIAH in the flesh.

Tell me this; is it possible for someone to DENY THAT THE CHRIST, THE MESSIAH, HAS COME IN THE FLESH if that person has no expectation or understanding that THE CHRIST, THE MESSIAH, IS TO COME IN THE FLESH?

In fact it is impossible for anyone not expecting or understanding that there is a MESSIAH TO COME IN THE FLESH to deny that THE MESSIAH HAS NOT YET COME IN THE FLESH.

For if you ask a person who has no understanding or expectation that the CHRIST is to come in the flesh; has the Christ come in the flesh? That person will respond to you with; who is this CHRIST you speak of I have never heard of such a person?

Thus for any person to deny that THE CHRIST HAS COME IN THE FLESH that person must first have a belief, an understanding, that THE CHRIST is to come in the flesh.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW ARE THERE MANY ANTICHRISTS; whereby we know that it is the last time.

John the Apostle, directed by the Holy Spirit, wrote this verse prior to 90 AD which is the yr the Apostle John died.

So here we are in the first century of the Church and already we have many Antichrists.
Who are these people in the first century of the Church who fulfill God’s definition of who the spirit of Antichrist is?

We can identify them from the following conversation Jesus has with the Pharisees.

Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And YE WILL NOT COME TO ME, THAT YE MIGHT HAVE LIFE.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honor from men.
Joh 5:42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
Joh 5:43 I AM COME IN MY FATHER'S NAME, AND YE RECEIVE ME NOT: IF ANOTHER SHALL COME IN HIS OWN NAME, HIM YE WILL RECEIVE.

All of Israel looked forward with expectation to the coming of the Messiah in the flesh and when Jesus of Nazareth came healing the sick, raising the dead giving sight to the blind and speaking Words no one could defeat a great debate in Israel arose; IS THIS JESUS OF NAZARETH THE CHRIST, THE MESSIAH, COME IN THE FLESH?

The leaders of Israel, the Pharisees and Sadducees, rejected Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah the Christ come in the flesh but they continued looking for the Christ, the Messiah to come in the Flesh and the vast majority of the Jewish Nation followed them in this path.

This is why Jesus in the above verse says “IF ANOTHER SHALL COME IN HIS OWN NAME, HIM YE WILL RECEIVEâ€Â.

In rejecting Jesus as the Messiah the Pharisees and their followers did not stop expecting the Messiah to come in the flesh and they became the first to fall under the deception of the spirit of Antichrist, which is all who say “THAT THE CHRIST HAS NOT COME IN THE FLESH they are of the spirit of Antichrist�

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and THIS IS THAT SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Why is it so important for us to understand who the spirit of Antichrist is and what his deception is?

Because when we understand who spirit of Antichrist is and what his deception is we are able to identify the nations who will be the main players in all End Times events as described in the Scriptures.

The spirit of Antichrist is EVERY SPIRIT THAT CONFESSETH NOT THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH AND IS NOT OF GOD: THIS IS THAT SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST. 1Jo 4:3

This spirit of Antichrist will dominate the End Time period of this age and all the human characters in this climactic drama that oppose JESUS THE CHRIST will be under the spirit of Antichrist’s deceptive influence.

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Until the Holy Spirit showed me the difference between the phrase DENYING THE CHRIST AND DENYING THAT THE CHRIST HAS COME IN THE FLESH the above verses always made no sense to me.

I could not understand how in this day and age dominated by computers, with billions of Bibles in print, Churches on every corner, world wide television and a world wide web how it was possible that someone could be deceived into believing that THE CHRIST HAD YET TO COME IN THE FLESH AND PERFORM HIS ORIGINAL MINISTRY OF SAVING THE WORLD.

The Scriptures are very plain that upon our Lord’s second coming He will return as the triumphant King and every eye will see Him. How are people deceived by the spirit of antichrist into believing that the CHRIST, the MESSIAH has never come at all and must come in the flesh to save the world?

Then the Holy Spirit said to me “The seed of Abraham has three branches, the Jewish branch, the Christian branch and the Islamic branch. Two of these branches still await the coming of the Christ in the Fleshâ€Â.

The Jewish and Islamic religions both still await the coming of the Messiah in the flesh as Prophesied in the Old Testament which is where their Scriptures end.

This means that they DENY THAT THE CHRIST, THE MESSIAH HAS EVER COME IN THE FLESH.

The spirit of Antichrist does not have to deceive them in the light of this modern era because they had already been deceived by the spirit of Antichrist long before this modern ever existed.

 

[brakelite2]

What an incredibly convoluted and complicated reply. Why couldn't you simply say that you believe those with the spirit of antichrist do not believe Jesus has come yet and are still waiting for Him?
The thing is, in promoting your claim you have ignored everything else I have produced as evidence that points directly to the RCC as the antichrist. Not a pope or individual, but the institution.
The denial of the true Christ comes not in disclaiming His first advent, but lies in replacing Him in the minds and hearts of His people with a false means of salvation; in the case of the RCC, themselves.

Allow me to add some further evidence. In Revelation 13 it is said of the beast in verse 2 that the beast received it's power, seat (or throne) and authority from the dragon. In Revelation 12 verses 3 and 4 we read that the great red dragon waited before the woman to devour the child as soon as He was born. The child we know was Jesus. Who was it that sought the child's life at His birth ? None other than Herod, the puppet king of the Roman Empire. Not only was the dragon therefore representative of Rome in the beasts of Daniel 7, but also here in Rev 12 as the potential murderer of the child Christ. This dragon we read also is representative of Satan (Rev12:9). So therefore according to the scriptures, it is Rome as Satan's mouthpiece that gives the beast of Rev 13 it's power, seat and authority.
In the early centuries of Christianity, the true faith spread far and wide. There is evidence that the gospel went as far as Britain by the turn of the first century, and as far as China and Japan in the other direction by the end of the 3rd. There were very busy trade routes from the middle east going in all directions and these were the means by which the gospel spread. In Rome the church grew very strong under the persecuting power of pagan Rome, but when Constantine nominally converted and a form of paganised Christianity developed as the official religion of the empire the true church, particularly in Rome, was in more danger of falling under the spell of apostasy than it ever was from persecution. When Constantine left for the east, Rome was left leaderless. The bishops became then leaders of secular as well as spiritual Rome by default. This situation was made official in the 6th century by the then emperor, Justinian. It was at that precise moment in history when the power of Rome, the seat or throne of Rome, and the authority of Rome was handed over officially to the church of Rome and the Roman church became a church/ state union.
Therefore the beast is readily identified as the church of Rome. Apostate because it has now committed adultery with the kings of the earth and taken and accepted secular power.
Using that power it then developed a system of worship antagonistic to sound doctrine and persecuted true believers wherever she went.
Among those unsound doctrines were foremost those that replaced the true Christ from His true position as our sole Mediator in the heavenly sanctuary. That spirit of 'replacement' , the real meaning of 'antichrist', began in John's day but found it's fullest realisation in the formation of the Roman Catholic church system. And the older and longer she has developed, the more she has encroached upon those prerogatives of God that belong only to Him, and the more she has fulfilled the ministry of antichrist.

 

[jamesdure]

I only read the initial post
I appreciate the study put into this ... obviously a great deal of thought.

Now I have heard many times about the RCC being antichrist, but 'the man' ... one man ... whose name is 666 remains unspoken of outside of the so-called lunatic-fringe. I have also heard [unverified] that the original pope's hat had roman numbers which were '666'.

While at the olympics in LA [about 1983] 2 rebel jesuits were spreading flyers that the RCC was antichrist with evidence similar to yours.

Pope Jean Paul [on his death bed] stated that he feared Goerge Walker Bucshe [666] was the antichrist.

I looked into this and reralized that the Capitol Building in DC is an enhanced replice of Solomon's temple [the man of sin must rukle from a rebuilt temple].
I am also aware that scholars state that this 666 wil rule from jerusalem, but there is also mention of a new-world [america presumably], and a new jerusalem [perhaps the capitol of this new world].

I would like to hear the authors thoughts on this ... if you are an american, you may defend the USA as 'God's nation' ... I also understand this thinking but many non-americans are quite sure the man of sin will rule not from Jerusalem but from the nation which rules the world ... USA.

Your Thoughts ?

 

[Christian Heretic]

Preview: Re: A Study on Antichrist.
Re: A Study on Antichrist.
Postby brakelite2 on Sat Dec 20, 2008 6:40 pm

What an incredibly convoluted and complicated reply. Why couldn't you simply say that you believe those with the spirit of antichrist do not believe Jesus has come yet and are still waiting for Him?

WHAT I BELIEVE OR EVEN WHAT YOU BELIEVE MEANS DIDLEY SQUAT.
ALL THT MATTERS IS WHAT THE SCRIPTURES TEACH FOR ONLY IN THE SCRIPTURES WILL WE FIND THE TRUTH OF GOD.

When a person who actually seeks TRUTH follows the leading of the Holy Spirit and all the pertinent Scriptures thru to their end that person can see the TRUTH for themselves and will not have to rely upon me or any other man to guide them.

IN THIS DAY WE HAVE WAY TOO MANY MEN FOLLOWING WHAT OTHER MEN THINK RATHER THEN A MAN SEEKING THE TRUTH THE SCRIPTURES PROVIDE.

THIS IS A PATH THAT WILL LEAD TO ONE FALLING INTO A DITCH AS THE SCRIPTURES TESTIFY.

Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

The thing is, in promoting your claim you have ignored everything else I have produced as evidence that points directly to the RCC as the antichrist. Not a pope or individual, but the institution.

My only claim is that the Scriptures are accurate, trustworthy and God wanted us to understand them with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Scripture interpretation is like a mathematical formula in this singular aspect, if the initial premise of a formula is wrong it does not matter what the rest of the formula says, it can not possibly achieve the correct answer, so it is with the interpretation of the Scriptures also.

If a person or group defies God's own definition as to who the Antichrist is in favor of their own private interpretation then that which follows in their interpretation can not possibly be correct.

The denial of the true Christ comes not in disclaiming His first advent, but lies in replacing Him in the minds and hearts of His people with a false means of salvation; in the case of the RCC, themselves.

It is impossible for you to demonstrate this statement from the Scriptures so you resort to circular reasoning, you presume a primary conclusion, which is that the RCC is the Antichrist, now all other Scripture by necessity must support this presumption or suffer being misinterpreted or just plain ignored .

This is not how the interpretation of Scripture is supposed to work. The Scriptures are designed to lead us to the conclusion God has made rather then be bent, twisted or totally ignored in favor to our own conclusions.

So once again you substitute your own definition for the one God Himself provides. Your obsession blinds you into claiming you are right even if this makes God wrong.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Circular reasoning is a desert of the intellect that few ever find their way out of because it is motivated not by a search for the Truth but rather by an obsessive lust or hatred for a person, place or thing.

Your desire to be right about the RCC being the Antichrist is more important to you then the Truth of God provided in His Scriptures.
Until you are ready to let go of your hatred and bitterness for the RCC you will continue to wander in this desert of the mind.
Understand that letting go to this obsession with the RCC in no way exonerates the RCC from her many sins but it will free you to see the Truth which is now veiled in your heart by your obsession with her.

Jam 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
Jam 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
Jam 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
Jam 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and LIE NOT AGAINST THE TRUTH.
Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jam 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Heb 12:15 LOOKING DILIGENTLY LEST ANY MAN FAIL OF THE GRACE OF GOD; LEST ANY ROOT OF BITTERNESS SPRINGING UP TROUBLE YOU, AND THEREBY MANY BE DEFILED;

Allow me to add some further evidence. In Revelation 13 it is said of the beast in verse 2 that the beast received it's power, seat (or throne) and authority from the dragon.

Let us see what the rest of the verses in Scripture pertaining to this Beast of Rev 13 have to say.

Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion ,and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and broke in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Symbols are a critical aspect of Scripture interpretation and the Symbols of Scripture never vary just like their Author, because if they did we could never know what God is actually saying and God does want His children to know what He has said.

NOTE THAT EACH KINGDOM EXCEPT THE ROMAN EMPIRE HAS A BEAST SYMBOL THAT SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIES IT. THE ROMAN EMPIRE IS NOT IDENTIFIED WITH A BEAST BUT WITH THE SYMBOL OF IRON TEETH.[/b]

The first: the Babylonian Kingdom; a LION (the eagle wings are not part of its identity as they are removed.)
The second: the Medes and Persia Kingdom; a BEAR
The third: Alexander the Greats Kingdom; a LEOPARD

The fourth: the Roman Kingdom; IRON TEETH (note: this new beast of Rev 13, that arises from the sea has no IRON TEETH the specific identifying symbol of the ROMAN KINGDOM)

Now let us look at the beast of Rev 13:

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And THE BEAST which I saw was LIKE UNTO A LEOPARD, and HIS FEET WERE AS THE FEET OF A BEAR, and HIS MOUTH AS THE MOUTH OF A LION: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev 17:8 THE BEAST THAT THOU SAWEST WAS, AND IS NOT; AND SHALL ASCEND OUT OF THE BOTTOMLESS PIT, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold THE BEAST THAT WAS, AND IS NOT, AND YET IS.

Rev 17:11 And THE BEAST THAT WAS, AND IS NOT, EVEN HE IS THE EIGHTH, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

As can be readily seen this beast of Rev 13 is not the Roman beast of Dan 7 but a different beast made up of three former Kingdoms, the Kingdom of Alexander the Great,THE LEOPARD, the Kingdom of Medes-Persia,THE BEAR, and the Kingdom of Babylon, THE LION.

God's symbols are specific and unchanging and the Scriptures can not be broken.Joh 10-35

All of these Kingdoms had existed previously and all had been destroyed and replaced by a subsequent Kingdom. As each Kingdom fell the beast, the actual spiritual power in control of the kingdom, was bound in the bottomless pit awaiting their time to rule again.

The beast of these three former Kingdoms when released from the bottomless pit merge into the Beast who arises from the sea with Seven Heads and Ten Horns in Rev 13.

Note: Each of these historic Kingdom’s domains, except for the tiny nation of Israel and the small country of Greece are presently totally dominated by Islamic populations which will be the primary players in the End Time events.

Yes I know you claim that “THE BEAST THAT WAS, AND IS NOT, AND YET IS†is the Roman Empire but if this were True not only would the Beast of Rev 13 have IRON TEETH as a symbolic identifier but God would have changed the tense of the article in the verse.

For this verse to identify the Roman Empire it would have to be written as follows.

“THE BEAST THAT IS, AND WILL NOT BE AND YET WILL BEâ€Â.

But God with whom there is no variableness and whose Written Word can not be broken did not write this verse to identify the Roman Empire but rather the former three empires of Alexander the Great, Medes-Persia and Babylon. Thus He wrote it “THE BEAST THAT WAS, AND IS NOT, AND YET ISâ€Â.

WHY NO IRON TEETH?

There are no Iron Teeth in this new Beast who rises out to the sea because the last direct link to the original Roman Empire, the RCC, will be utterly destroyed by the ten Kings of this new Beast who rises out of the sea as the following verses make plain.

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 17:16 And THE TEN HORNS WHICH THOU SAWEST UPON THE BEAST, THESE SHALL HATE THE WHORE, AND SHALL MAKE HER DESOLATE AND NAKED, AND SHALL EAT HER FLESH, AND BURN HER WITH FIRE.

Rev 17:17 For GOD HATH PUT IN THEIR HEARTS TO FULFILL HIS WILL, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Mystery Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the Earth, sits atop this new beast at his arising from the sea. She sits as a queen in all of her glory.

But as soon as these ten Kings come to power they will turn on her and destroy Mystery Babylon the Great whom they hate. FOR GOD PUTS IT IN THEIR HEARTS TO MAKE HER DESOLATE, NAKED AND SHALL EAT HER FLESH AND BURN HER WITH FIRE.

Mystery Babylon the Great is non other then the RCC as God’s Symbolism in Scripture proves.

Mystery; in Scripture the word mystery always speaks of Religious Mystery or Religious Secret never anything else.

Woman; the Church is always referred to as female.

Seven mountains: speaks of the seven hills upon which Rome is founded.

Peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues: Speaks of a congregation that spans the globe, speaks every national language on earth and is the largest Church in the world.

Arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls: Speaks of vast wealth in gems, art, gold and land a wealth beyond counting

So when we put these pieces together we have a THE WEALTHEST CHRISTIAN RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD THAT WAS FOUNDED UPON SEVEN HILLS WITH A WORLD WIDE CONGREGATION SPANNING THE ENTIRE GOLBE AND SPEAKING EVERY LANGUAGE FROM EVERY NATION.

Mystery Babylon the Great is the RCC who rides atop the beast and when the beast arises out of the sea with seven heads and ten horns he will attack her and destroy her and all of her children and every other sect that believes that the Christ has come in the flesh.

Mystery Babylon the Great is the last direct link to the original Roman Empire and when she is destroyed so will the final piece of the original Roman Empire be destroyed and the IRON TEETH will be no more.

THIS WILL PAVE THE WAY FOR THE COMING FORTH OF THE LITTLE HORN WHO WILL CLAIM TO BE THE MESSIAH COME IN THE FLESH TO SAVE THE WORLD.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

This Little Horn, the son of perdition, can not arise to power until the last visages of the Roman Empire are destroyed. This is because Satan can not oppose himself or his kingdom would fall. So until his Roman Empire is completely extinguished the Little Horn can not rise to power.

Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Satan is the true power behind the Roman Empire as you have stated. He also will give his throne and his power to the Little Horn .

This is why the Ten Kings, with God's motivation,must be the instrument used to destroy Mystery Babylon the Great without the Little Horn being involved. For if the Little Horn were involved or Satan were the motivator in destroying Mystery Babylon the Great then Satan would be opposing himself. .

 

[brakelite2]

What you perceive as 'hatred' and 'animosity' against the RCC on my part, ought to be seen rather as simply an historical perspective.
You and I agree that the 4th beast is the Roman empire. When the empire collapsed it's former territories in the west were taken over by 10 other horns. God directs our attention to the west as opposed to the eastern portion of the empire because it was in the west that His people were most drastically affected by the rise of the little horn, which came up among the ten. Uprooting 3 of the 10, this little horn rose to power and for over 1000 years was the undisputed ruler of Europe. A composite entity of all that had gone before her, a continuation of the Roman empire but 'diverse ' from the others in that she had religious as well as secular power.
It was pagan Rome (and by proxy the devil) which gave her the seat, power and authority by which she rules.
This is simple history. Not trying to make the scriptures fit something I personally hate nor mis-shaping any entity to make the entity fit the scripture. They fit hand and glove. As Jesus indicated and taught, we ought to look to the past for historical fulfillment of prophecy rather than attempt to be clairvoyants and make an imagined future fit prophecy.
This combination of the Roman 'iron' state and the church, the 'clay', is depicted in the statue of Daniel 2 and it is only by the direct intervention of Jesus the 'Rock', that destroys this composite beast of church/state union. Rome therefore in the form of the RCC remains on earth right up to the second coming.
I agree with your understanding of the whore, only I would add that she has children, and it is the union of her daughters (church offshoots) with their mother that forms the complete Babylon. Clearly, the beast she rides is a state power. She holds the reigns so is in charge. It is only by rebelling against her authority that the kings of the earth seek to destroy her. While they may kill her priests and pastors they must leave the final destruction of this entity to God Himself who throws her into the lake of fire.

So we seem to continue to disagree however on the meaning of what John termed "Jesus in the flesh'. As I see it, we are talking spiritual truth, and spiritual understanding of the term flesh must be understood in terms of the carnal nature that developed after the fall. It seems to me to be a far stretch to make the term mean literally physical flesh. I find that to be a somewhat shallow and unlikely scenario that we have to ignore the last 1500 years of an entity that fulfilled every scripture regarding the antichrist (the little horn, beats of Rev 13, man of sin the whore etc.) and wait for some individual to appear who claims that Jesus has never come, and thus professes to be Him. Is that all Satan's got? Is that the best he can do? Who is going to be deceived by that? Yet we are told the the whole world wonders after the beast! So all the world is going to discard the evidence of secular and religious history in favour of this coming whiz-kid's word?
Yet by contrast look at how many over the past 1500 years have been deceived and are being deceived right now by the RCC.

 

[Christian Heretic]

Re: A Study on Antichrist.
by brakelite2 on Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:05 pm

What you perceive as 'hatred' and 'animosity' against the RCC on my part, ought to be seen rather as simply an historical perspective.

This is just an academic’s self deception, your bitterness and hatred of the RCC is your passion, the historical perspective is your self justification.

You and I agree that the 4th beast is the Roman empire.

Yes and it is the Only Point Upon Which We Agree.

When the empire collapsed it's former territories in the west were taken over by 10 other horns. God directs our attention to the west as opposed to the eastern portion of the empire because it was in the west that His people were most drastically affected by the rise of the little horn, which came up among the ten. Uprooting 3 of the 10, this little horn rose to power and for over 1000 years was the undisputed ruler of Europe. A composite entity of all that had gone before her, a continuation of the Roman empire but 'diverse ' from the others in that she had religious as well as secular power.
It was pagan Rome (and by proxy the devil) which gave her the seat, power and authority by which she rules.

This is balderdash, a figment of intellectual fantasy gone awry and a mere fable dressed up as the Truth but is in fact extra Scriptural in it genesis and extra Scriptural in its method of interpretation.

You can not demonstrate from the Scriptures its truth and you can not demonstrate from the Scriptures where God has ever previously fulfilled any Scripture by this historical method of interpretation.

All Scriptures fulfilled in the past were fulfilled literally and in a way that all of God’s children could observe it and understand it. Not just those educated in thousands of years of history.

That is;
When ever it was God’s time to fulfill His own Words he has always done it quickly and literally and in a way all His children could understand it without needing an academic intermediary.

As God has done in the past so God will do in the Future for God is the One and Only True God in whom there is never any variableness nor shadow of turning.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning

THIS IS SIMPLE HISTORY. Not trying to make the scriptures fit something I personally hate nor mis-shaping any entity to make the entity fit the scripture. They fit hand and glove.

THE SCRIPTURES MAKE HISTORY THEY DO NOT CONFORM TO IT AFTER THE FACT AS YOU CLAIM THEY DO.

GOD NEVER MAKES HIS CHILDREN WHO ARE PRESENT AT HIS FULFILLING OF PROHPECY WAIT CENTURIES TO CONFIRM WHAT HE HAS DONE.

God’s Name is not ‘I WAS’ God’s Name IS ‘I AM’.

God is the God of the present moment and He will in His Own Time fulfill each and every Prophecy quickly and those alive at the time of fulfillment of His Word will recognize it as God bringing forth His Word.

All Prophecy of Scripture is fulfilled literally not figuratively and you can not show any previous Prophecy that God has ever fulfilled figuratively.

No Prophecy of the Scriptures has ever been fulfilled in a manner such as you propose that the Book of the Revelation of Jesus the Christ will be fulfilled and God does not change what God has done in the past God will do also in the future.

The Prophecies of the Book of Revelations are no different.

Symbols in Scripture are hard wired and are to be interpreted only by the definitions God has provided in His Word.

THE WAY A SYMBOL HAS BEEN INTERPRETED PREVIOUSLY IN THE SCRIPTURES IS THE ONLY WAY IT CAN BE INTERPRETED AT ALL OTHER APPEARANCES IN SCRIPTURE.

IF THIS WERE NOT SO THEN IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW WHAT GOD IS SAYING AND DECEPTIONS LIKE YOURS WOULD HAVE FREE LICENSE TO INVENT WHAT EVER THEY DESIRED.

As Jesus indicated and taught, we ought to look to the past for historical fulfillment of prophecy rather than attempt to be clairvoyants and make an imagined future fit prophecy.

When one quotes Jesus it is appropriate to provide the Scriptural references that support your claim. That is if you have any. I would like to see the quotes from Jesus that supports this claim.

This combination of the Roman 'iron' state

Again you err, the IRON metal does not depict the State but Rather the quality of the singular spiritual force that underlies and empowers the State. Thus the Properties of IRON reveal the underlining beast’s True nature.

This True nature of this spiritual force is then further defined when symbolized by the spirit, Living Beast, which gives life, will and power to the state in each of the Kingdoms of the Vision.

and the church, the 'clay', is depicted in the statue of Daniel 2

SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURAL REFERENCE THAT EVER USES THE SYMBOL OF ‘CLAY’ AS MEANING THE CHURCH? You can not simply apply any definition that suits your agenda to the symbols of Scripture.

Yes I know there aren’t any Scriptures that refer to ‘CLAY’ as the Church.

Again you presume a lie to support your agenda and then state the lie like the Scriptures confirm your lie.

Well do the scriptures speak of this type of action.

Jam 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

and it is only by the direct intervention of Jesus the 'Rock', that destroys this composite beast of church/state union. Rome therefore in the form of the RCC remains on earth right up to the second coming.

Again you err. The RCC and the Beast of the Roman Empire are both a manifestation of a single entity, the fourth beast.

When the Fifth Beast of Rev 13 arises from the Sea we do not see the Roman Beast any more because he has already been destroyed by the falling of his Kingdom in the previous centuries, which is revealed by the feet which are partially clay and partially IRON.

This is why we only see Mystery Babylon the Great as sitting atop this New FIFTH BEAST because it signifies she is all that is left of the once great Roman Kingdom.

The only remaining remnant left of the Roman Empire is the RCC.

BY virtue of the RCC being the last direct link to the original Roman Empire she occupies the highest position when the FIFTH BEAST of Rev 13 emerges from the Sea and thus she sits atop this Fifth Beast until He destroys her paving the way for the Little Horn to ascend.

Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Verse 42 below confirms that these Ten Kings arise from the sea at the End of the Roman Kingdom and not somewhere else in its history. Until the RCC is completely destroyed the Roman Empire will still exist.

Dan 2:44 And IN THE DAYS OF THESE KINGS SHALL THE GOD OF HEAVEN SET UP A KINGDOM, WHICH SHALL NEVER BE DESTROYED: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

The fact that for the last one thousand years or so the RCC has been the De facto ruler of the Roman State is symbolized by her sitting as a queen upon this New Fifth Beast when he arises from the sea and it makes her no different then the various kings who ruled the Roman State prior its fall.

When the Ten Kings of this New Fifth Beast destroy the RCC they will also destroy the last remaining remnant of the ROMAN KINGDOM. This is why the FIFTH BEAST of REV 13 does not have IRON TEETH which are GOD’S SYMBOLIC IDENTIFIER FOR THE ROMAN BEAST.

The Scriptures do not lie and the Symbols of the Scriptures always mean the same thing.

THE BEAST OF REVELATION 13 IS MADE UP OF THE KINGDOM OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT, THE KINGDOM OF MEDES-PERSIA AND THE KINGDOM OF BABYLON AS THE SYMBOLISM THAT GOD USES PROVES.

ONE DOES NOT GET TO PICK AND CHOOSE HOW THEY INTERPRET THE SCRIPTURES. GOD HIMSELF GIVES US WHAT THESE SYMBOLS MEAN.

I agree with your understanding of the whore, only I would add that she has children, and it is the union of her daughters (church offshoots) with their mother that forms the complete Babylon. Clearly, the beast she rides is a state power. She holds the reigns so is in charge. It is only by rebelling against her authority that the kings of the earth seek to destroy her. While they may kill her priests and pastors they must leave the final destruction of this entity to God Himself who throws her into the lake of fire.

PLEASE BASED ON THE SYMBOLS PROVIDED BY GOD AND USING GOD’S OWN DEFINITIONS AS PROVIDED IN THE SCRIPTURES, TRY AND PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF THIS NARRATIVE.

So we seem to continue to disagree however on the meaning of what John termed "Jesus in the flesh'. As I see it, we are talking spiritual truth, and spiritual understanding of the term flesh must be understood in terms of the carnal nature that developed after the fall. IT SEEMS TO ME TO BE A FAR STRETCH TO MAKE THE TERM MEAN LITERALLY PHYSICAL FLESH.

I am not surprised that you find the TRUTH of the SCRIPTURES “A FAR STRETCH†you obviously have little respect for the WORD OF GOD unless of course you can claim it supports your extra SCRIPTURAL interpretation.

1Jo 4:3 And EVERY SPIRIT THAT CONFESSETH NOT THAT JESUS the CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH IS NOT OF GOD: AND THIS IS THAT SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

GOD’S DEFINITION IS PLAIN “THOSE WHO DENY THAT JESUS THE CHRIST HAS COME ON THE FLESH, THIS IS THE ANTICHRIST.â€Â

THAT YOU IGNORE IT IS SIMPLY PROOF OF HOW LITTLE FAITH YOU HAVE IN WHAT GOD HAS ACTUALLY SAID VERSUS WHAT YOU DESIRE HIM TO HAVE SAID.

Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and THE SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE BROKEN;

As the Scriptures state they can not be broken, yet you break them without even a second thought, as long as it seems to further your PERSONAL agenda.

I find that to be a somewhat shallow and unlikely scenario that we have to ignore the last 1500 years of an entity that fulfilled every scripture regarding the antichrist (the little horn, beats of Rev 13, man of sin the whore etc.)

In your mind this may well be true, but then many have thought it a somewhat shallow and unlikely a scenario that God would choose the small insignificant nation of Israel as His betrothed or the stiff necked Hebrews as His people, but God has in fact done both for God’s ways are not our ways and God’s thoughts are not our thoughts.

Isa 55:8 FOR MY THOUGHTS ARE NOT YOUR THOUGHTS, NEITHER ARE YOUR WAYS MY WAYS, SAITH THE LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

This is why we must put such an emphasis on what God has actually said rather then what we THINK HE HAS SAID.

For with the rational mind we will never find God or even the Truth of God as the Scriptures reveal:

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth

Those who seek God through their rational minds rather then by the faith of their hearts are ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of God.

God never said UNDERSTAND AND FOLLOW rather GOD SAID BELIEVE AND FOLLOW. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO THINK OUR WAY TO GOD.

If we believe His Word is TRUTH and we continue to struggle with it, rather then abandoning the struggle in favor of this or that deception, God will reward those who continue to struggle, with revelation by His Holy Spirit.

and wait for some individual to appear who claims that Jesus has never come, and thus professes to be Him. Is that all Satan's got? Is that the best he can do? Who is going to be deceived by that?

You have no understanding of what the Scriptures actually say: the Little Horn will not have to convince anyone that the Christ, the Messiah has not yet come in the flesh they will already be convinced before he ever arises to power and they will be seeking him to appear.

You like most others are confounded by the present apparent absolute domination of the western world by Hellenistic Christian culture and you assume this will continue unto the End of this Age and the return of the Messiah.

But there is a change coming, a change you can not yet even begin to comprehend until you accept what God has said is TRUE and IT WILL HAPPEN.

The FIFTH BEAST of Rev 13 is the beginning of the key to understanding what this world will really be like during the last Seven Years of this present Age. For when we understand who this FIFTH BEAST really represents we begin to comprehend how truly catastrophic the time of the BEGINNING OF SORROWS spoken of by our Lord will be.

Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: SEE THAT YE BE NOT TROUBLED: FOR ALL THESE THINGS MUST COME TO PASS, BUT THE END IS NOT YET.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the BEGINNING OF SORROWS.

The following verses also belong to this time called the BEGINNING OF SORROWS and identify for us the time referred to in Scripture as THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

We are not told specifically when this Beginning of Sorrows will commence or how long it will last but we do know THAT THIS TIME OF SORROWS WILL TURN THIS WORLD WE KNOW UPSIDE DOWN AND WILL CULMINATE WITH THE LITTLE HORN ASCENDING TO POWER.

With the Little Horn’s ascension to Power the time of the BEGINNING OF SORROWS will end and the final seven years of this age will begin to tick away.

Yet we are told the the whole world wonders after the beast! So all the world is going to discard the evidence of secular and religious history

This spirit of Antichrist will dominate the End Time period of this age and all the human characters who take part in this climactic drama and oppose JESUS THE CHRIST will be under the spirit of Antichrist’s deception that THE CHRIST, THE MESSIAH HAS NOT COME IN THE FLESH.

Be not deceived the world will not simply discard the evidence of secular and religious history rather secular and religious history will be murdered and burned out of existence.

The Ten Kings who destroy Mystery Babylon the Great and eat her flesh and burn her with fire will also destroy all of her children, all the protestants and any other sect which proclaims that the Christ the Messiah has come in the flesh. They will burn every church or building used as a church to the ground and will burn every New Testament ever printed along with every publisher who ever printed one.

This TIME OF SORROWS will make the dark ages of history look like a Sunday brunch.

As i posted earlier:

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Until the Holy Spirit showed me the difference between the phrases DENYING THE CHRIST AND DENYING THAT THE CHRIST HAS COME IN THE FLESH the above verses always made no sense to me.

Like you brakelite2 I was a sea as how this could ever be.

I could not understand how in this day and age of total domination of the Western world by Hellenistic Christian culture supported by computers, with billions of Bibles in print, Churches on every corner, world wide television and a world wide web how it was possible that someone could be deceived into believing that THE CHRIST HAD YET TO COME IN THE FLESH AND PERFORM HIS ORIGINAL MINISTRY OF SAVING THE WORLD.

The Scriptures are very plain that upon our Lord’s second coming He will return as the triumphant King and every eye will see Him. How are people deceived by the spirit of antichrist into believing that the CHRIST, the MESSIAH has never come at all and must come in the flesh to save the world?

Then the Holy Spirit said to me “THE SEED OF ABRAHAM HAS THREE BRANCHES, THE JEWISH BRANCH, THE CHRISTIAN BRANCH AND THE ISLAMIC BRANCH. TWO OF THESE BRANCHES STILL AWAIT THE COMING OF THE CHRIST IN THE FLESHâ€Â.

THE JEWISH AND ISLAMIC RELIGIONS PRESENTLY TOTAL ABOUT 1.6 BILLION PEOPLE AND STILL AWAIT THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH IN THE FLESH AS PROPHESIED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WHICH IS WHERE THEIR SCRIPTURES END.

This means that they DENY THAT THE CHRIST, THE MESSIAH HAS EVER COME IN THE FLESH.

THE SPIRIT OF ANTICHRIST DOES NOT HAVE TO DECEIVE THEM IN THE LIGHT OF THIS MODERN ERA BECAUSE HE HAS ALREADY DECEIVED THEM LONG BEFORE THIS MODERN EVER EXISTED.

in favour of this coming whiz-kid's word?

Please show Scriptural reference that provides evidence that the Little Horn will be a whiz-kid.

Whiz-Kid:
Dictionary definition:

Somebody young and talented: a young and exceptionally talented and successful person in a field of activity.

Again you allow your cultural perception to blind you to the Truth of God.

 

[PageOne]

This is one of the best threads i ever read.

I have 2 comments to the adversaries here.


1- to 'christian heretic' you need not use capital letters, it shows you to be very pushy and disrepectful.

2- a QUESTION to 'brakelite2'
scripture says that once the antichrist is revealed then christ will appear.
So if it is accepted that the RCC is the antichrist (to which several million agree) then I wouiold like you to point to christ.

 

[PageOne]

is this thread active ?

braklite ¿?¿?¿?¿

 

[brakelite2]

This is one of the best threads i ever read.

I have 2 comments to the adversaries here.


1- to 'christian heretic' you need not use capital letters, it shows you to be very pushy and disrepectful.

2- a QUESTION to 'brakelite2'
scripture says that once the antichrist is revealed then christ will appear.
So if it is accepted that the RCC is the antichrist (to which several million agree) then I wouiold like you to point to christ.

I have been away for some time but am now back, and yes, this thread is still alive and seemingly very well.
Can you show me where the Bible says that when antichrist is revealed, then Christ will appear?
The only similar portion of scripture I am familiar with is that in Thess. which says that a falling away, or when an apostate church appears, this reveals the antichrist. This for me indicates that the falling away of the church of Rome in the 3rd and 4th centuries and on revealed who the antichrist was. Herself. I am not alone in believing this. Every reformer from the time of Tyndale pronounced the RCC as the antichrist. It is only in recent times as a result of very successful counter-reformation PR from the RCC that people no longer accept this teaching. Futurism is only a modern phenomenon. Again, most reformers were historicists. Just as Jesus taught us we should be.
"Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am He." John 13:19 See also Mathew 24:33 and Luke 21:28.
Jesus here is telling us to look to the past to recognise where we are in the present. Not to guess concerning the future, as is the want of so many.

 

[Cornelius]

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of Antichrist,whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.



Has anybody ever wondered why it says "is come" and not "came" ?

erchomai
er'-khom-ahee

(used only in the present and imperfect tenses)

 

[Sinthesis]

Futurism is only a modern phenomenon. Again, most reformers were historicists. Just as Jesus taught us we should be.
"Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am He." John 13:19 See also Mathew 24:33 and Luke 21:28.
Jesus here is telling us to look to the past to recognise where we are in the present. Not to guess concerning the future, as is the want of so many.

If you would follow your own interpretation of Christ's advice you would see that the Antichrist is not found in the RCC, but within the apostate Jewish temple theocracy that existed after Christ's resurrection.

 

[brakelite2]

Futurism is only a modern phenomenon. Again, most reformers were historicists. Just as Jesus taught us we should be.
"Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am He." John 13:19 See also Mathew 24:33 and Luke 21:28.
Jesus here is telling us to look to the past to recognise where we are in the present. Not to guess concerning the future, as is the want of so many.

If you would follow your own interpretation of Christ's advice you would see that the Antichrist is not found in the RCC, but within the apostate Jewish temple theocracy that existed after Christ's resurrection.

The antichrist is in power on a global scale at the time of the second coming. It is a form of apostate worship in direct contradistinction to the truth. Most of the world will be deceived by it, leaving but a small remnant faithful to the truth. Nowhere, I repeat nowhere, is there any suggestion anywhere in scripture that there is to be a reformation of temple worship and sacrifices.
That theory is but a delusive dream of the futurists, and a convenient red herring for the Vatican.

 

[Sinthesis]

The upshot of all this is that the RCC does teach that Christ did not come in the flesh.

This is false because you have redefined 'flesh'. The RCC certainly does teach that Christ came in the flesh. It is called the doctrine of the Incarnation of Christ.

John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

He was saying that the antichrist would deny that Jesus was born with the fallen nature of Adam, but rather the unfallen nature.

This is false. 'Flesh' does not equate with a fallen nature. Adam and Eve existed sinless before the fall. We would have no hope for a resurrected and glorified body if flesh equated with a fallen nature.

Jesus was born with Adam's fallen nature, as shown by Paul.

Romans 8:3 - For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Your interpretation is false. The key here is the phrase 'the likeness of' meaning 'resembling on the surface but different in essence'. Had God sent Jesus in sin he would have just said '...God sending His Son in sinful flesh...'. Adam would not have had to 'fall' had he been born in sin. Christ would therefore not be the 'Second Adam' if he was born in sin. Jesus' crucifixion would have been well deserved had he been born in sin, 'for the wages of sin is death...' Romans 6:23.

Your entire thesis rests on a misinterpretation of the Incarnation of Christ. Specifically, you assigned an incorrect definition to 'flesh', then claim that because the RCC does not agree with your redefinition they are the Antichrist. :naughty