Bible Study A Tree and it's Fruit

[Mike]

I'm starting this thread in the Bible Study Forum because I don't want it to become yet another thread pitting Free Willers and Calvinists. What I'm hoping for is at least a few members who are not headstrong for one or the other and willing to objectively (as much as possible) consider Matthew 7:15-23.

I've been in a "no-man's land" for a while now, unable to accept that scripture says we can do anything ourselves to impact our standing before the Lord and the doctrine that says God created some people for the sole purpose of damnation in the end. I've gotten to this point from the position of free will years ago. In my devotionals I was reading Matthew 7 in the same way I often have, yet something stood out to me as it never has before.

Matthew 7
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

I've longed held that works are not a means to salvation, rather they are a indication of salvation. When we are told in scripture that faith without works is dead, I have no problem reconciling this, because the absence of works would be an indication that someone is not in Christ. It seems to me verse 18 above would support the understanding that those who are in Christ will do good works because they will be naturally compelled to, while the one's who are not in Him will not be able to no matter how they try.

In verse 20, it says we will recognize those who are in Him by the good works they do. It seems to me this implies the opposite as well. We will recognize who isn't by their lack of works. This is foreign and difficult for me. I will never be so bold to determine that someone isn't His for myself. But Jesus said that I will be able to do that.

Even more striking to me is when I tie verse 18 in with verse 23. To paraphrase, people who are not in Him cannot do good. They can only do what is natural to them; bad. And they have never been His. Christ as never known them.

If this sounds like a set-up to hold and defend the position of predestination, it's not. I'm still trying to determine where I fit in with respect to it, but I don't see it as necessary knowledge, anyway. It is what it is. Believing I need to do good works or not doesn't change my desire to do them. Believing I'm predestined to be saved or not doesn't change my standing before Him.

I'd like to discuss this with people who also struggle in between the two doctrines, but I can't say or even ask those who's minds are made up not to participate. Because this is in the Bible Study Forum, I can insist that we all treat each other with respect and not argue our way out of a study of His Word.

 

[Sinthesis]

Suppose that the fruit doesn't represent works, but people, as in good figs vs bad figs. In this case the bad figs would be confused as to how their works were not acceptable even though they consisted of prophecy, miracles, and driving out demons, which would all appear as good works. An answer to them would be in Mark 12:41-44 in which actual value of 'the good work' is influenced by the workers motivation.

 

[Mike]

Thanks, Sinthesis. I'm not sure how you can read verses 15 & 16 to start this quote from Christ and conclude that the fruit He goes on to describe are "people". Can you explain your take a little more? I'm still seeing this fruit as "good works", but I'm open to a discussion on it.

 

[Sinthesis]

The false prophet is a bad tree, just as Jesus is the good tree. The false prophet is attracting people to himself rather than God. The doctrine of each is reflected in the type of people the tree bares. The fruit may appear on the outside good to us, but if it comes from a bad tree, then it is also bad and will be exposed as such in the judgement. Even bad people can do good works, but that does not mean they will be accounted to them as righteousness, because they are done for the wrong reasons.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I think it is deeds, but there is more to it than just that.

We see in Matthew 6 that Jesus says, "you cannot serve both God and mammon" as some people wanted to do.

In Matthew 7, the false prophets may be people who are deceived and not the deceivers per se.

These false prophets have a hunger to share what they believe.

The true believer trusts in God only and it shows in his character as described in Revelation 13.

The true believer may walk "among" sinners but will not participate in their sins. This is our character at work and our good works as well.

We have 3 types of people.

1. I want God but "my way".

2. I want God and the world.

3. I just want God and want to show it.

 

[for_his_glory]

Here are a few scriptures that came to mind while reading your post.

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

(Ones own works separate from having Christ in their lives are only temporal and have no reward in heaven as that is where we need to be storing up treasures, Matthew 19:21; Luke 6:45. Temporal praise is only found in one who displays their love of glory in themselves.

Matthew 6:
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

(Bad fruit people are those who like to be seen by others for their good works as they are lovers of self more than lovers of Christ for they know not Christ)

Proverbs 18:12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.

(You can physically see the difference between one who is haughty (proud, puffed up) in their good works and one who is humbled by the works they do as they are doing the works of Christ.)

 

[westtexas]

Mike, John Wesley teaches these verses basically the same as Sinthesis has described and says the fruit in these verses are people also. He teaches that these verses describe the false prophets and their followers. David Koresh taught his followers and they all thought they were doing right but Wesley teaches that Koresh (or whoever you care to insert here) lead his followers through the broad gate and thus the tree (Koresh) produced bad fruit (his followers). Ultimately Koresh, or whichever false prophet, will say "Lord, did I not prophesy in your name? and our Lord will say "Depart from Me".

Hope that made sense, I know I didn't explain it as good as John Wesley did.

 

[Mike]

hmmmm....

I could share a few names of people who hold that the good and bad fruit is the way our lives are lived. In other words, they are the good and bad that we do. But, I don't want to make this about lining up people who agree with us.

It seems to me with verse 17, it's going from the specific to the general about our lives, and the way they are carried out. "Likewise...". If one does see this as works, I'm seeing two byproducts of this message: a person indwelt with the Holy Spirit will do good works as opposed to His favor resting on the one who does good works. Good works are a natural response to His forgiveness rather than a means to gain it. And as I said earlier, Jesus says we will recognize those who He never knew and who He does know. This is an extremely powerful statement!

 

[westtexas]

hmmmm....

I could share a few names of people who hold that the good and bad fruit is the way our lives are lived. In other words, they are the good and bad that we do. But, I don't want to make this about lining up people who agree with us.

I agree with the viewpoint that the fruit is our deeds and there are probably many more who agree with this point of view than disagree with it. I was simply pointing out that there some who agree with Sinthesis that the bad fruit can also be people and the scriptural defense for this position is quite plausible.

 

[Nick]

In my opinion there are only two interpretations that fit this passage:

1. The tree is the person and the fruit are their deeds. Basically a supporting passage for predestination
2. The trees are the prophets and teachers, and the fruit are their followers.

They appear to also be the two interpreations found in this thread. I've always taken this passage as the first option - that is, a supporting passage for predestination, where a good person just does good deeds and has fruit of the Holy Spirit because they are saved through faith. I've never really thought about the passage in the second option, where the followers of prophets and teachers are the fruit. In a way it makes sense, but I feel the majority-held view fits better.

Taking a look at v21:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ​

Looking particularly at the second half of v21, to me this is speaking more on a perosnal level than just teachers not doing the will of the Father. I've always thought of this verse as - people - whether they be false prophets or Christians - doing or not doing the will of the Father, and we know this by their fruit. Those that do not do the will of the Father - evidenced by their bad fruit - will (in v22) effectively to to hell (thrown into the fire).

Now that I've heard the case that the followers of the teachers are the fruit in this thread, I don't feel it has a weak case, but I feel that the 'classic' interpretation may be the classic interpretation for a reason.

Taking this a bit further, when the Bible talks about fruit, IMO it usually speaks of good deeds/works and characteristics that are present in a person - either good fruit in the believer or bad in the unbeliever. For example, take a look at the Fruits of the Spirit passage in Galations 5:16-25 (ESV) . I take it the fruits of the spirit are characteristics of a believer not characteristics of followers of good or bad prophets/teachers.

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Footnote:
d. Galatians 5:21 Some manuscripts add murder​

To me, tree = people, fruit = deeds/fruit of the Spirit (or flesh). It just....fits better, IMO.

Oh, I realised that this thread was kind of for those who are on the fence regarding free will / predestination. I won't intrude too much then.