A Weekend in Hell

[Andyintheuk]

Oh boy. The things the human mind can conjure up when the context of the Whole Bible is not to the read, LORD. A few Topical Studies from the Nave's Topical Bible(Cheep and available free on the web) or having read through the Bible a few times under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit and one will discover the Creeds are not scripture and some of their points were the imaginings of the Human Mind. Jesus did not descend into Hell, not Hell as we know it. In Luke 16:19-31 we see that Jesus, who never named people in his parables, teaches us there are two locations and neither is His home.

They are Hell and Paradise. The Lost are waiting for the final Resurrection and the Saved from the Old Testament are in Paradise, waiting for the Messiah, Jesus, to take them to heaven and to close Paradise. In Matthew 27, verse fifty-one or fifty through about fifty-three or four, we find the Old Testament Saints running through the Holy City. Where was Abraham and the others going? The generally accepted thought is Jesus had preached the Gospel to them and was escorting them to Heaven and they were seen for a testimony of what we are to expect for ourselves, we will not expire, none of us.

OK I'm no expert or even a scholar. I just read the Bible as often as I can, praying that the Holly Spirit will try to kèep me on the straight and narrow. I prefer to take things that I read in the Bible on face value. God is incredibly complicated and yet at the same time incredibly simple.

I've had people trying to explain to me the theology of Purgatory, I didn't really understand it but I could see that I didn't agree with it either.

From what I read there is only one Hell. It's where Satan, his cohort angels and all the idiots who've ignored the Bible, the prophets, preachers, personal witnesses of God's grace, as typified by the description 'disobedient souls....' live.

Jesus died to pay the price for the sins of all sinners, past, present and future. Those who died prior to Jesus's time on earth would be saved if they believed in Him. How so, they'd never even heard of Him, how could they believe in Him? Well Job believed and he lived before even the Old Testament was written-
For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me! Job 19:25‭-‬27 NKJV

Simeon who died in Jesus's infancy believed-
“Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word; For my eyes have seen Your salvation. Luke 2:29‭-‬30 NKJV

Any who didn't (past tense) believe or who don't believe (present tense) go to Hell when they die. Hell won't last forever but then neither will Heaven. God will have an almighty clear out, when Satan no longer has a role or a purpose he gets chucked -
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10 NKJV

I can't see where it says in the Bible there's two or several hell's, but I stand to be corrected.

Sometimes I think people read into a passage more than there is actually there. For example the passage -
and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:52‭-‬53 NKJV
To me this doesn't tell me that these were Old Testament prophets or saints. More likely, people who had died days, weeks or months beforehand and who following their resurrection went into the city to present themselves to the people who'd been to their funerals. God was saying to Jerusalem, explain that!! He was simply resurrecting the dead on a grander scale than Jesus had done in the months prior for Jairus, the widow of Nain and most famously, Lazarus.

Some think that Jesus spent the 3 days in the tomb. His fleshy body did yes, but his Spirit-

by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, I Peter 3:19 NKJV

I understand that God had to turn His back on Jesus in the same way that He does to the sinner in Hell. Jesus had to go through the whole sentence and punishment we had handed down to us, except for God's rescue plan.

Like I say if I'm off the rails I'll take correction but please support your viewpoint with chapter and verse.

 

[th1b.taylor]

OK I'm no expert or even a scholar. I just read the Bible as often as I can, praying that the Holly Spirit will try to kèep me on the straight and narrow. I prefer to take things that I read in the Bible on face value. God is incredibly complicated and yet at the same time incredibly simple.]/quote]

So okay, you claim you read the Bible and then you qualify that by adding as often as I can. YHWH already knew this but now I feel safe in saying your attitude about knowing is casual at best. You should not say things like that on the web because there are tens of thousands of Self Righteous ¿Christians? that will climb all over you for that statement.

I do wish I could proclaim to you that I have read the scriptures through every day of every years since 1/1/90 but that would make me a liar. On the other I nave no idea how many times I could legitimately state that I have read the scriptures because it was a matter of seeking a closer relationship with YHWH and it was not a point of pride.

I will comment, candidly, that it beyond my personal understanding why anyone would lay out of the Honky Tonks, Pubs, Trink Hales and Clubs and show up every or any Sunday Morning at the call to worship when they cannot devote 15 to thirty minutes a day attempting to seek after and seeking to know this God that required a Perfect Sacrifice to permanently pay people's Sin Debt and then sent His Own Son to pay that debt.

I've had people trying to explain to me the theology of Purgatory, I didn't really understand it but I could see that I didn't agree with it either.

That is a very good thing because if you ever believe that lie and hold on to it you will never see the inside of Heaven.

From what I read there is only one Hell. It's where Satan, his cohort angels and all the idiots who've ignored the Bible, the prophets, preachers, personal witnesses of God's grace, as typified by the description 'disobedient souls....' live.

That is not biblical in any form? Hell, as best I recall it is Sheol and that is the tomb or the grave but for certain, it has nothing to do with The Final Resting Place of anyone. I'll pass over the truth that none of us will die what we, here on the earth consider extinction or extermination but I know you have a Computer online and will ask you to check in at e-sword.net and download the Bible Study Program and install it. Open it up and look in the Tool Bar, find and click Downloads. The click Dictionaries/naves. Then under Downloads, I seem to recall, click Start Download.

If you never install any of the other, also, free software the program will either be invaluable to you or you will know that you do not love YHWH nearly as much as He loves you.

But open it, choose any topic and do the study outlined there. Nave will not try to convert you nor to prove anything, there are no footnotes nor comments, just the study outlines.

Jesus died to pay the price for the sins of all sinners, past, present and future. Those who died prior to Jesus's time on earth would be saved if they believed in Him. How so, they'd never even heard of Him, how could they believe in Him? Well Job believed and he lived before even the Old Testament was written-

The Old Testament Saints were looking forward to the coming of the Messiah... leaving them in limbo, right? Not really. In Matthew 27 about verse fifty through I think I remember about verse fifty-four, Jesus has just died on the cross, the world, all around, is as dark as a moonless night and the Old Testament Saints were seen passing through the Holy City. I ask you to recall the various passages where it is explained that a thousand years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years to YHWH. 2Pet 3:8) time has no meaning to YHWH, not as we understand it.

Jesus spent time, outside of our Time/Space Continuum, preaching the Gospel to them in the place known as Paradise or also Abraham's Buxom, and every one of them accepted Jesus as savior or they were transfered into Hell to await the last resurrection, the one where they are condemned to spend eternity suffering, the Lake of Fire.

For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me! Job 19:25‭-‬27 NKJV

Simeon who died in Jesus's infancy believed-
“Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word; For my eyes have seen Your salvation. Luke 2:29‭-‬30 NKJV

Any who didn't (past tense) believe or who don't believe (present tense) go to Hell when they die. Hell won't last forever but then neither will Heaven.

Not so! Both are Eternal, just as is YHWH and every person that has ever been upon the face of this planet. A Naves Study is called for o this.

For the rest of this post, you need to study to know YHWH intimately and use the Nave's to do it throughly.

 

[JohnDB]

Not for the reason you're thinking, otherwise He wouldn't have said "touch me not, for I have not yet ascended"

It's very important to understand the "it is finished," but His current ministry is not to be discounted

You are quoting two separate scriptures of things Jesus said....

first one after Jesus resurrected and was talking to Mary for her "touch me not" is really a bad rendering today of what would be understood. More along the lines of "Hey, quit sqeezing me so hard, I aint going anywhere yet" is a better understanding of what was intended...and a likely reaction of seeing a loved one come back to life by a woman.

The second thing is where Jesus is declaring that the Crucifixion is over...he is about to die in fully cognizant fashion. (to ensure that people don't declare that Jesus was "out of it" during his death ) because right after that He did die.

 

[WIP]

first one after Jesus resurrected and was talking to Mary for her "touch me not" is really a bad rendering today of what would be understood. More along the lines of "Hey, quit sqeezing me so hard, I aint going anywhere yet" is a better understanding of what was intended...and a likely reaction of seeing a loved one come back to life by a woman.

I'm curious. If this is a more accurate translation, then why didn't the translators of the various versions translate as such? In most cases (maybe all) the translations were not done by single indivduals imputing their own ideas but by a team of individuals (scolars and historians I suspect). It would seem that they would have come to the more correct conclusions.

 

[JohnDB]

I'm curious. If this is a more accurate translation, then why didn't the translators of the various versions translate as such? In most cases (maybe all) the translations were not done by single indivduals imputing their own ideas but by a team of individuals (scolars and historians I suspect). It would seem that they would have come to the more correct conclusions.

Because they create and follow a set of rules that they all agree on.
How exactly Mary was holding on to Jesus isn't known. (Could have just been his arm or leg) but the translators try to follow an exact rendering when translating word for word without trying to interpret their own thoughts into the scriptures.

Which goes into needing to understand hermeneutics. Paper was very expensive when the autographs were made and later hand copied. Details often were left out as "of course everyone would know that" and here 2,000+ years later...we don't.
Often the little bits are excluded...and with strict guidelines for translating they don't get included...so that prejudice does not get included.

 

[Randy]

I’ve been thinking about the cost to God and Jesus of our salvation. We tend to focus on the physical pain of nails crown of thorns but I suspect that was paled into insignificance compared to what was to follow immediately afterwards.
“For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.” ‭‭I Peter‬ ‭3:18-20‬ ‭NKJV

The Bible's not very descriptive when talking about either Heaven or Hell, so it leaves it mostly to our imagination. I’m guessing there’s no sunshine there which is why it’s described as a place of outer darkness. There’s no influence of God or the Holy Spirit so evil reigns, sin doesn’t stop with Earth, the place is full of depravity and violence.

Poor Jesus did all that in place of us so that we don’t have to and instead spend eternity in Heaven with God. Thank you Lord, thank you, thank you

Keyword "Alive", not dead, as alive in the Spirit" The Spirit would take Jesus wherever He willed to be. He has that authority.

 

[Razeontherock]

You are quoting two separate scriptures of things Jesus said....

Yes, of course. How was that not obvious?

I 100% disagree with your understanding of both. These are very significant points that reveal God's nature to us, and need to be kept consistent with the whole of Scripture.

 

[JohnDB]

Ahhh, so you're saying that Scripture is not to be trusted, and you know better than the Apostles and the rest of the early Church that gave it to us. Your position makes total sense now.

No...not even close to what I said.
Read what I said carefully.
I hold every line, word, and letter of scriptures very very precious. The "little bits" of common knowledge that get written into today's writing by everyone due to the practical worthlessness of paper versus the exhorbitant cost of vellum, papyrus, or animal skins back when the original books and letters of the Bible were written is a consideration needing to be kept. Also that Ancient Near Eastern society speaking norms was a lot different than what is commonplace today.
And that many people "just don't get it".

 

[Razeontherock]

Good to know, thanks for your clarification.

 

[Winnie]

Further on in 1 Peter 4:6 it says 'For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead that the they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.'
This sounds to me that he is saying the dead get to hear the gospel too and possibly be saved. If they are judged in the flesh as men, as we all are by dying, they may also live in the spirit.
If this is translated some other way please enlighten me. Thanks.
Further more. It does say he preached to those dead, I guess they were not in hell yet.

 

[Jim Parker]

Oh my Lord. Oh Jesus, you didn’t escape from Hell, you burst out of it!

Exactly.
He kicked down the gates and ruined Satan's game.
He didn't suffer. He destroyed Satan's power.

 

[Razeontherock]

Exactly.
He kicked down the gates and ruined Satan's game.
He didn't suffer. He destroyed Satan's power.

This is what makes me question if we really know Jesus harrowed Paradise only, and not also the place of the damned as we've seen claimed.

 

[Andyintheuk]

Further on in 1 Peter 4:6 it says 'For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead that the they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.'
This sounds to me that he is saying the dead get to hear the gospel too and possibly be saved. If they are judged in the flesh as men, as we all are by dying, they may also live in the spirit.
If this is translated some other way please enlighten me. Thanks.
Further more. It does say he preached to those dead, I guess they were not in hell yet.

Hi Winnie, the context of the text in the proceeding verses talks of a christian's past life and sinful pursuits and warns against compromise, living a double life of faith and sin. I think the dead in this verse are dead in sin as opposed to dead, no longer breathing. To them we are encouraged to preach the gospel. If they reject our advice then that will be held against them when they are finally judged.

I don't know if anybody else has a different take on this passage. Always interesting to chat with believers and pool ideas about a passage.

 

[Andyintheuk]

Hi Taylor. Many thanks for your tip on the Bible tool, I'll deffo give it a try.

I'm not sure why you take exception to me saying I read the read the Bible as often as I can, or why Christians would want to crawl all over me.

I think that some people in this forum treat it like a arm wrestling competition, trying to prove who's got the strongest Bible knowledge. To everyone else that's about as edifying as watching a burger eating contest.

I'm happy to discuss bible passages with you, but only in good grace.

Anyway let's chat about these passages; we seem to have different takes on them.

The Bible is brilliant it tells you in no uncertain detail what you need to know but the rest it does often leave you guessing.

How the Old Testament righteous got into Heaven maybe one of these. I'm still of the view that Christ died for them to and they had to believe.
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” John 8:56 NKJV

The passage on the graves opening is unclear as to whether these were Old or New Testament saints. I think New is more likely, the bodies of Old Testament saints would have decomposed completely in the 500 intervening years and their souls in Heaven. I know that that is not impossible for God, to whom all things are possible, but more likely.

Rarely in the Old Testament did Saints come back. Samuel did in Saul's spooky seance and Moses and Elijah did in Christ's transfiguration but all these were in spirit form.

For that reason I think it is more likely that these were the recently departed who came into Jerusalem to prove to the believers that resurrection was not only possible but a fact.

 

[Razeontherock]

Hi Winnie, the context of the text in the proceeding verses talks of a christian's past life and sinful pursuits and warns against compromise, living a double life of faith and sin. I think the dead in this verse are dead in sin as opposed to dead, no longer breathing. To them we are encouraged to preach the gospel. If they reject our advice then that will be held against them when they are finally judged.

I don't know if anybody else has a different take on this passage. Always interesting to chat with believers and pool ideas about a passage.

Hi Andy -

I think you're right. This context is about the living, including those Spiritually dead. I.e., the fields that are ripe for harvest!

 

[Razeontherock]

"As edifying as a burger eating contest;" lol I have to try to remember that one! I've never seen a burger eating contest so that's not in my usual vocabulary, but it paints quite the mental picture. Yick!

 

[Winnie]

It says the gospel has been preached EVEN to those who are dead. Well who else was it preached to then? We were all the walking dead. I guess it is the wording that makes it sound like the physical dead. Since the wording implies it is preached to another group as well.
So what does your version say?

 

[Razeontherock]

It says the gospel has been preached EVEN to those who are dead. Well who else was it preached to then? We were all the walking dead. I guess it is the wording that makes it sound like the physical dead. Since the wording implies it is preached to another group as well.
So what does your version say?

What version are you reading? Still 1 Peter 4:6? "Also," in the KJV. If you want to establish Jesus preaching to the dead, we have passages that do that. I think the only way all those line up is that Jesus went to all areas of hell, Paradise as well as punishments. Some people say he only went to Paradise, so I think it's tough to be 100% certain.

OT Saints were there when it happened! I look forward to being able to discuss this with them ...

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hi Taylor. Many thanks for your tip on the Bible tool, I'll deffo give it a try.

I'm not sure why you take exception to me saying I read the read the Bible as often as I can, or why Christians would want to crawl all over me.

Andy, if you pray to YHWH to open the pages of the scriptures to you you will be rewarded with the most exciting action/adventure stories ever recorded by man. It has Love Stories, Daily Life examples to teach kids how to live successful lives, war stories where some of the best strategies and General ever used, Tragedies that rocked the known world back on it's heals and it is the accurate record of everything Yashuah did from the time He created the Earth until people began to learn of the Jewish Man that was God in the flesh of a man that paid their sin debt that we might escape the punishment every human on this earth deserves and in the scriptures, the knowledge of, exactly why good men deserve to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

I think that some people in this forum treat it like a arm wrestling competition, trying to prove who's got the strongest Bible knowledge. To everyone else that's about as edifying as watching a burger eating contest.

No, and we are known as Evangelicals. the reason for our zeal is because there is a command at the end of Matthew known as The Great Commission, those last three verses. And then there is John 14:15 where Yashuah informs us that if we love Him, we will obey His Commands.

No, Evangelicals are not as pure as the driven Snow and often, far too often we look just like the Lost Man walking all around us. The difference? We try to obey and we believe YHWH.

I'm happy to discuss bible passages with you, but only in good grace.

Anyway let's chat about these passages; we seem to have different takes on them.

The Bible is brilliant it tells you in no uncertain detail what you need to know but the rest it does often leave you guessing.

God has seen to it that anyone not indwelt with the Holy Spirit cannot read
many parts of the scriptures to make sencs

Luke 8:10
Verse Concepts
And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.
e of them

How the Old Testament righteous got into Heaven maybe one of these. I'm still of the view that Christ died for them to and they had to believe.
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” John 8:56 NKJV

The passage on the graves opening is unclear as to whether these were Old or New Testament saints. I think New is more likely, the bodies of Old Testament saints would have decomposed completely in the 500 intervening years and their souls in Heaven. I know that that is not impossible for God, to whom all things are possible, but more likely.

No, but if YHWH had given us a running narative, without the Holy Spirit, we would have been so proud of ourselves and independent because of our ability to understand Him. YHWH did not want us to rebel against Him, He wanted and wants us to depend on Him and I believe it is Psalm 42:19 where He tells us to stand still and to know He is our Elohim.

Luke 8:10
And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.

Scripture must be read in it's natural context but some points, such as the next quote of yours require a knowledge that is one of the Mysteries spoken of in the preceding verse from Luke 8. That no scripture, passage of scriptures nor any collection of scripture can ever be fully understood without the Light of All scripture shining on it/them.

And then the truth that the Jewish Bible, the Christian's Old Testament and New Testament were authored/inspired by the man, Yashuah or in Greek, Jesus. (John 1:1-3) Messianic Christians are sometimes prone to seeing the last twenty=seven books of our Bibles as the Renewed Covenant. The Bible form "In the beginning..." through the very last word of The Revelation is written by a single person, the Second Person of our Triune Adoni.

Rarely in the Old Testament did Saints come back. Samuel did in Saul's spooky sense and Moses and Elijah did in Christ's transfiguration but all these were in spirit form.

For that reason I think it is more likely that these were the recently departed who came into Jerusalem to prove to the believers that resurrection was not only possible but a fact.

Eph. 4:9 1Pet 3:18-20
You have already mentioned the verses in Matt 27 and when combined with the two above as well as the story of Lazarus and the rich man explains what happened to the Old Testament Saints.

This Mistake of yours, thinking that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Isaiah and thousands, likely billions of Former Saints. It clearly goes against the teachings and promises of Jesus because He clearly teaches Eternal Life for the Believer. This errant theology did not come from the Holy Spirit because He never disagrees with the scriptures.

I am concerned for you because it is so eeasy go enter at the wrong gate.

 

[Andyintheuk]

What version are you reading? Still 1 Peter 4:6? "Also," in the KJV. If you want to establish Jesus preaching to the dead, we have passages that do that. I think the only way all those line up is that Jesus went to all areas of hell, Paradise as well as punishments. Some people say he only went to Paradise, so I think it's tough to be 100% certain.

OT Saints were there when it happened! I look forward to being able to discuss this with them ...

The OP 1 Peter 3v19:20 is the clearest description of what happened to Jesus. His body was in the tomb, HIS Spirit was in Hell preaching to the disobedient souls. I wonder what was the theme of His sermon? We can only guess or speculate.

Anyway at end of the service, He didn't stay for tea and biscuits but burst out! Next job was to see Mary Magdalene. She had sneaked off to the tomb, according to John 20:1 it was still dark and so still Sabbath, so she could have got into trouble but she couldn't wait to go and complete the embalming of her beloved Lord. What's interesting is His request -
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ” John 20:17 NKJV. So sometime between seeing Mary and revealing himself to Thomas where He invites Thomas to actually touch His hands and side, Jesus goes to see His father God, though we're not told why. Lots of questions; one day we'll know the answers for sure.

Another verse telling us where Jesus spent that weekend-
Therefore He says: “When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.” (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:8‭-‬10 NKJV.