A Woman's Place In the Bible

[Kathi]

A good friend of mine is a catholic and I went to his church's mass a few times and they never asked me to cover my head. Neither did all the other women wear head covers. But alost all church denominations required women to cover their heads in church in the past centuries (when it was custom for women to wear hats anyway), so maybe the catholics you encountered were just a bit traditionalist.

Or things have changed since I was in the Catholic Church.

 

[Count Duckula]

Ephesians
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

So, do woman here submit to their husbands as they do to the Lord?

 

[Kathi]

Ephesians
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

So, do woman here submit to their husbands as they do to the Lord?

What is your definition to "submit to their husbands"?

 

[evenifigoalone]

Not married. Not even in a relationship. (Maybe one day, but probably not anytime soon.)

Have to understand the verse isn't about dominating women or putting them on a lower pedestal. People forget that there is a verse(s) in the same chapter about how men are to treat their wives, too.

From the article I posted earlier:

1. "head" does NOT mean the same thing we mean by it in Western culture. From the standpoint of anatomical function, in Paul's day it was the 'heart' that made the decisions, guided life, etc. "Head" was much more the 'adornment department' of the body! In other words, when people wanted to make decisions, they used their heart; when they wanted to get all "gussied up" ["dressed up", for you colloquially-deprived readers ;>) ], they used their head (e.g. hair, makeup, jewelry). So, in the literature, the word translated 'head' here often shows up as 'crown' or 'excellence'. [Hence, its usefulness in the passage of I Cor 11.]
   
   
   
2. The root notion was that of 'source', and from this usage it was applied to people--Zeus, Pharoah, the progenitors of the Twelve Tribes, Christ-with reference to the Church, man (Adam)--with reference to woman (Eve)....
   
   
   
3. If an author wanted to make a point about AUTHORITY, he would use two specific words--exousia ("authority"; Matt 28.18, Rom 13.1-3) and/or archon ("ruler"; Rom 13.3). He only used 'head' when dealing with issues of origination, completion, consummation.
   
   
   
4. In the passage under discussion, the only mention of the word 'authority' is in verse 10--and it is the women who possesses it!
   
   
   
5. NONE of the SCORES of published lexicographers of ancient Greek even LIST "authority, ruler" as a meaning for this word (WS:WAB:97-110, 118-132). It only begins to show up with those minor usages after Constantine!
   
   
   
6. Recent attempts to argue that the "source"-meanings PRESUPPOSE the "authority" meaning (a la Grundem) by restricting the locus of study to SPECIFIC persons, literally "exempt" this passage from the force of their arguments!

 

[Obadiah]

Count Duckula, you sure like to come into a forum as the new guy and start right off stirring the pot with your bold red font and one of the most controversial subjects you could think of for your first thread, don't you?

 

[reba]

Some folks like to have fun Obadiah




This thread is not Bible Study so it is now over in the Lounge...

 

[Kathi]

Ephesians
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

So, do woman here submit to their husbands as they do to the Lord?

Submission is a natural response to a loving relationship.When a husband loves his wife as Christ loves the Church Ephesians 5:25-33.The submission talked about in Ephesians is not about a one-sided relationship of a believer to a selfish,domineering person.God did not make Eve to be trampled upon but to be equal to Adam.

 

[Claudya]

Ephesians
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

So, do woman here submit to their husbands as they do to the Lord?

I don't have a husband, but if I did he'd want an equal counterpart in his marriage.

 

[reba]

THe ol letter of the law or letter of the Word guys... pick and choose verses ..

I wonder how many of 'em wear sandals ? Mar 6:9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats.

1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

 

[Deborah13]

Not in the RCC, but some churches really do that. Mennonites for example, as far as I know. Personally I use the head cover verse as an excuse for wearing some sort of hat to church (for vanity reasons) and not taking it off during the service.

I think that's because you are so much younger than many of us. We remember the days when the RCC made all women have their heads covered. They don't even make all the nuns cover their heads now.

 

[Deborah13]

Ephesians
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

So, do woman here submit to their husbands as they do to the Lord?

Young's Literal Translation
Eph 5:24 but even as the assembly is subject to Christ, so also are the wives to their own husbands in everything.
Eph 5:25 The husbands! love your own wives, as also the Christ did love the assembly, and did give himself for it,

If both people obey these two scriptures what a blessed union they will enjoy.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Ephesians
5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

So, do woman here submit to their husbands as they do to the Lord?

Sir, are you missing the point?
You quote verse 22, but verse 21 says, "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ".
That should be the first order of business.
In verse 28 Paul says, "In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies".
So put it together.
Submit to one another.
Wives submit to husbands.
Husbands love wives as themselves.
They all go together, one is not separate from the other.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Greetings all,

Two notes to throw in here that provide some food for thought:

1. The passage on head coverings is tricky, because Paul appeals on the basis of nature and the the customs of the culture. One poster has already addressed the lack of the natural coverings for some of these Corinthian women. The issues of culture, Paul instructed that one who would oppose the head coverings would need to evaluate whether they are refusing them to be confrontational or in contention with the customs of the fellowship. Paul's appeal comes from the notion that why resist unless you are looking to be contentious. There was no other practice in the culture, and so resisting would be a flimsy, unnecessary offense to the rest of the body. This was in part an appeal to remind these women that such a practice causes more discourse to refuse than to gently adhere to it. As culture has changed, so has the need to participate in such a practice. I am aware that some will disagree with this reasoning, but I feel it is further supported by the first few verses of 1 Corinthians 13. Paul reminds us that if we surrender our bodies to the flames without love, the practice is useless. In this case, participating in the practice of head-coverings was a way to show love to the fellowship in not creating contention.

2. On the note of submission. Philippians 2 reminds us that Christ was equal to God, but out of submission to the Father, came and lived as he did. Submission is not a call for one to be treated as less than another. It is the appeal to place the will of another over our own. That is all. Often times, a husband will play the submission card in situations when he does not want to hear an opposing thought from his wife. This however, is not an appeal for submission, but domination, which is contrary to the picture of Love painted for husbands and fathers. Fathers are reminded in several of Paul's epistles not to dominate their children, but to train them in the ways of God's love and and true worship. If we are not to dominate our children, who we are superior to by the fact that we are their parents, how much more are we not supposed to dominate our wives who are equal to you, but for the purpose of fulfilling her call from God to be your wife, has entered into the vows of marriage.

 

[jasonc]

I order my wife around like the good nco I am and she obeys, problem solved. NOT. I haven't gotten this figured out either in practice.

 

[Blazin Bones]

This is where communication in marriage comes in. When a husband and a wife talk often about the directions they would like to take with their family, it doesn't take too much looking to see submission in play. In our house, I am responsible for handling the checkbook. (No cheesy, inappropriate marriage jokes please.) When we have a discussion about how much to save and when, or which purchases should happen now and which ones need to wait until after my next pay day; my wife and I will just discuss what we are looking at and come to an agreement about what is spent and when. In the rare cases we cannot come to an agreement on a choice, then my wife will leave the decision to me. We do not argue about anything later on, and I always make sure I relay what decision was made and why. In five years of marriage, we have never argued about how we are spending and managing our income.

This is the picture of submission more 'Christians' need to get into their worldly leaning little heads. At no point does submission require belittlement, anger, or struggle for control. If it did, then we could not obtain the true love God wants us to have in our marriages. Belittlement is wrong because Love, and the execution of loving actions, is kind and not boastful or rude. There is no place for power struggles because Love is not self seeking. If any action a husband engages in or pursues in his marriage does not carry the marks of 1 Corinthians 13, then we do not need to be doing it.