Abomination of Desolation in 70AD - Part 2

[JLB]

If you say Jesus "confirmed" His covenant in the middle of the week, and the middle of the week according to you is 36 AD, then why would you say the events of Daniel 9:27 happened in 70AD ?

First I'm not saying the middle of the week is exactly 36 AD, there are different times within about a 3 yr spread of the actual yrs. of Christ's ministry.

The destruction (desolation) was "determined" predestined if you will, when Jesus was condemned and died. When they said things like "we have no King but Caesar" when they delivered Him up, they sealed the fate of Jerusalem. Jesus, knew they would (He wept over the city) and predicted it and warned His apostles.
When reading all of the NT, I believe we need to keep in mind that the apostles knew this was coming. All the NT was written between the Cross and 70 AD. So this had not occurred yet when they wrote and taught.

When are you saying the 70 th week started, since you associated Stephen with that time, it is obvious the 70th week has not to do with the year 70 AD.


JLB

 

[JLB]

All the NT was written between the Cross and 70 AD

That is your opinion, but not necessarily the opinion of Historical scholars.

Revelation was written around 90 AD.

Our focus is on the 70th week.

You say it started right the 69th, which means the 70th end some 30 years before 70 AD.

It really doesn't matter who knew what was coming, we are talking about the year 70 AD, and the 70th week which you say ended somewhere around 37 AD.

How can anyone come up with the notion that the 70th week is a reference to the destruction of the temple?



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

The problem Hope IN Glory is that at the end Jesus said this generation includes Him coming in the clouds having said it after. They never asked about a temple also, they asked about the end of age. You just assume they wanted to know what was going down a few years from that time. Who would ask that? So, you have to have all the events, you just don't pick and choose what is convenient if you pick Jesus statement about "That Generation"

John Lightfoot, wrote a commentary of the Gospels from the view if the Jews A Commentary on the New Testament From the Talmud and Hebraica ,
" John Lightfoot (March 29, 1602 – December 6, 1675) was an English churchman, rabbinical scholar, Vice-Chancellor of the University of Cambridge and ,Master" wiki quote
This is what the Jews wrote about 70 AD, Lightfoot uses a lot of OT scripture to backup the Jewish view. Including what it meant by coming in the clouds and end of the age.
Here is the link http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/lightfoot-new-testament/matthew/24.html

Mike, one would be hard pressed to find a commentary or Jewish writing that believes that Matt 24 or Daniel 9 refer to anything other than 70 AD, before the late 1800s. And the rapture is just plain not there at all period. That whole idea came from a woman by the name of McDonald in Scotland in about 1825-1830. She said she saw it in a dream. At least that is what I have read as far as where Darby got the idea from. Do some research.

Deb check this out if you would like. Pre trib eschatology is not that new.

Epistle of Barnabus 100 AD

Irenaeous in "against heresies"

Hippolytus ( a disciple of Irenaeous) (2nd century)

Justin Martyr, "dialog with Trypho"

Ephraem, the Syrian ( 4th Century)

Ephraem was a major writer for the Eastern Church and one of His sermons was discovered recently. Here is a translation note from one of His sermons:

" For all the Saints and elect of God are gathered prior to the tribulation that is to come and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." (306-373 AD) So this view is not new.

McDonald and Her dream is just a sensational ruse to stop the believer from digging deeper.

Thanks gr8grace. I will do that. I also noticed in this quote from 306 AD, he separates the "saints" from the "elect", which is another doctrinal statement.
He is saying that the 'saints' and not the 'elect'.
I can see I'll be doing more reading.....

Have a blessed day.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe the Daniel 8 little horn is Antiochus Epiphanes, while the Daniel 7 little horn is Vespasian.

I don't have the knowledge of the history that you do and I haven't done the work to make that determination. Thanks for the input.

 

[Deborah13]

If you say Jesus "confirmed" His covenant in the middle of the week, and the middle of the week according to you is 36 AD, then why would you say the events of Daniel 9:27 happened in 70AD ?

First I'm not saying the middle of the week is exactly 36 AD, there are different times within about a 3 yr spread of the actual yrs. of Christ's ministry.

The destruction (desolation) was "determined" predestined if you will, when Jesus was condemned and died. When they said things like "we have no King but Caesar" when they delivered Him up, they sealed the fate of Jerusalem. Jesus, knew they would (He wept over the city) and predicted it and warned His apostles.
When reading all of the NT, I believe we need to keep in mind that the apostles knew this was coming. All the NT was written between the Cross and 70 AD. So this had not occurred yet when they wrote and taught.

When are you saying the 70 th week started, since you associated Stephen with that time, it is obvious the 70th week has not to do with the year 70 AD.


JLB

Do we have an exact year for Stephen's death?

 

[Deborah13]

How can anyone come up with the notion that the 70th week is a reference to the destruction of the temple?

What is your definition of the word 'determined'?

With my understanding of the definition of this word, I could say....Jesus' birth, death, and resurrection was 'determined' from the foundations of the world, even though it did not happen until thousands of years later.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

Thanks gr8grace. I will do that. I also noticed in this quote from 306 AD, he separates the "saints" from the "elect", which is another doctrinal statement.
He is saying that the 'saints' and not the 'elect'.
I can see I'll be doing more reading.....

Have a blessed day.

Pre-trib idea is not new. Those that boast post-trib like to cover the facts. The elect just means chosen. If Jesus is your lord, then you are chosen and have accepted God's plan and Gods placing you in the body, and becoming the body part God made you to be.

The other elect is Israel. They did not choose God (The Lord Jesus), but God has promised them. Through God's promise to Abraham, God will still have a plan for those not part of the church but the seed of Abraham.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Jesus' birth, death, and resurrection was 'determined' from the foundations of the world, even though it did not happen until thousands of years later.

I still don't see how you chose 70 AD, Jesus birth death and resurrection. All of those happened almost 40 years before 70 AD?



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

The other elect is Israel. They did not choose God (The Lord Jesus), but God has promised them. Through God's promise to Abraham, God will still have a plan for those not part of the church but the seed of Abraham.

Who is the seed of Abraham? Scripture Please.

 

[Deborah13]

I still don't see how you chose 70 AD, Jesus birth death and resurrection. All of those happened almost 40 years before 70 AD?

I wasn't making a point about His life. I was using an example with the word "determined", as in predestined to happen. As in the decision was made.

And you my friend, have not answered my question and I always try to answer your's to me because I respect you.

What is your definition of the word "determined"?

 

[JLB]

I still don't see how you chose 70 AD, Jesus birth death and resurrection. All of those happened almost 40 years before 70 AD?

I wasn't making a point about His life. I was using an example with the word "determined", as in predestined to happen. As in the decision was made.

And you my friend, have not answered my question and I always try to answer your's to me because I respect you.

What is your definition of the word "determined"?

Decided

 

[JLB]

And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator." Daniel 9:27b

What does this have to do with Messiah and His crucifixion?

JLB

 

[Elijah674]

39 years until the temple (un/holy one) was destroyed!
Christ stated Matt. 23:38 that your HOUSE is left unto you DESOLATE!
[38] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate

And in John 12:42- John 12:43 we see the reason why this is so!
[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
[43] For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
(this was the DESOLATE EX/HOUSE of God)

And there are enough commentaries around to fill every slant of the Rev. 17:1-5 churches.

My suggestion is that you ask for Christ help!

--Elijah

 

[Deborah13]

I still don't see how you chose 70 AD, Jesus birth death and resurrection. All of those happened almost 40 years before 70 AD?

I wasn't making a point about His life. I was using an example with the word "determined", as in predestined to happen. As in the decision was made.

And you my friend, have not answered my question and I always try to answer your's to me because I respect you.

What is your definition of the word "determined"?

Decided

Thanks JLB, I do appreciate you answering me.

Have a blessed day

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

Who is the seed of Abraham? Scripture Please.

We are!!!! (Gal chapter 3- sorry, being lazy)

This is a scripture that really speaks to me about that covenant God made with Abraham and his seed that would never end. It applied to Israel and all the seed of Abraham, we being gentiles through belief in the Lord Jesus are also blessed with faithful Abraham. God's covenant to Abraham is the only Covenant we are blessed in. Through Jesus we were able to be partakers of that awesome covenant.

Jesus came to the Earth to enforce the will of God. God's will was to keep that covenant He made and extended it to the seed which we get to be part of. That covenant included prosperity, healing, peace, and on, and on.

Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

This women did not ask for healing, did not throng about Jesus like many did every single day. Jesus came to her, which speaks volumes about this covenant God made between Himself and Abraham. This women is not born again, but a jew and descendant of Abraham.

Jesus said.......... THIS WOMEN OUGHT TO BE HEALED BECAUSE SHE IS A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM!!!!!

Glory to God, I get excited thinking about that. Jesus went to her, she was not even born again and here Jesus is making sure that promise is real in her life. Any believe who thinks for a second it may not be God's will to heal, has no clue what seed they are.

God has a plan for his people. It's not as cool of a plan that we have being the Church, but it's a plan nonetheless.

Mike.

 

[JLB]

Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

Who is the seed of Abraham? Scripture Please.

We are!!!! (Gal chapter 3- sorry, being lazy)

This is a scripture that really speaks to me about that covenant God made with Abraham and his seed that would never end. It applied to Israel and all the seed of Abraham, we being gentiles through belief in the Lord Jesus are also blessed with faithful Abraham. God's covenant to Abraham is the only Covenant we are blessed in. Through Jesus we were able to be partakers of that awesome covenant.

Jesus came to the Earth to enforce the will of God. God's will was to keep that covenant He made and extended it to the seed which we get to be part of. That covenant included prosperity, healing, peace, and on, and on.

Luk 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

This women did not ask for healing, did not throng about Jesus like many did every single day. Jesus came to her, which speaks volumes about this covenant God made between Himself and Abraham. This women is not born again, but a jew and descendant of Abraham.

Jesus said.......... THIS WOMEN OUGHT TO BE HEALED BECAUSE SHE IS A DAUGHTER OF ABRAHAM!!!!!

Glory to God, I get excited thinking about that. Jesus went to her, she was not even born again and here Jesus is making sure that promise is real in her life. Any believe who thinks for a second it may not be God's will to heal, has no clue what seed they are.

God has a plan for his people. It's not as cool of a plan that we have being the Church, but it's a plan nonetheless.

Mike.

Great word Brother Mike!

The Lord Jesus made covenant with Abraham.

We as Gentiles are grafted into that covenant because we believe and confess Jesus as Lord, The Lord of the Old Testament and the New.



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

We are!!!! (Gal chapter 3- sorry, being lazy)

Yes, we are counted as seed just as those of faith in the OT. BUT....

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I hear Paul revealing a mystery, JESUS is the SEED that the promise (covenant) was made with.
Not Israelites in general, not Gentiles in general but to those of grace and faith, through Jesus. In the OT, it was the same. He was there but had not been manifested in the flesh. He was there in all the types and shadows of the OT. Their faith was by what was revealed to them in the Torah and the Prophets. That is why Jesus said, He fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, He was manifested at that time the OT in the Law and the Prophets.
God said to the Israelites, if you will seek me with all your heart and soul you will find me. Some did.

This is the way I understand the covenant made between God and the Seed of Abraham. I am not teaching or preaching, just looking for the Truth of scripture.

So then I think about it, what did this covenant between God and the Seed entail? Was it a piece of ground on this earth called the Israel or was it about a Kingdom? What good is a piece of ground without a people? On that ground called the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel were a people, without them there was no Kingdom.
So are we apart of the Kingdom, we are grafted in? And some of the Jews are in and some are out?
If the covenant between Abraham's Seed (Jesus) is about ground then we are entailed to that same ground.
[MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION] please help. Could you answer the question below? Or [MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION] or someone else who knows. Including you, Mike. Thanks
Or is there a different covenant that was made with the Jews for that ground? If there is, please point it out to me, I don't know where it is. Where is it in scripture?

I agree with you that we have all the blessings through Abraham's Seed, Jesus.

 

[jasoncran]

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION], my take is that the land had a purpose that was to bless the Hebrew nation in that they could be seen and also well humans have needs don't we? anything god gives isn't just for us but to bless others. they should have used the land to raise up missionaires and then send them out to the goy. they didn't.

a defense for this is in the torah.

Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the Lord our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

from deuteromony chapter 4. while I do believe the land was for them but really had a purpose then and it is possible that god meant for them to have it forever. however, the sage ramban and most jews don't even believe the eretz isreal will exist forever. all of creation at the end of the seventh epoch will be destroyed and all jews(isreal) shall be in gan eden with god forever.

 

[Deborah13]

anything god gives isn't just for us but to bless others. they should have used the land to raise up missionaires and then send them out to the goy. they didn't.

Thank you, Jason. This is an awesome scripture. How in the world I missed it...blindness.
So I'm assuming that the covenant made with Abraham is the only one made, besides the Law of Moses. Not speaking of those before Abraham.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

Well, Let's not make this complicated. There was one Covenant.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

Just one, that is it. It was to the seed of Abraham who Jacob and Issac were part of, now to us through Christ Jesus.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

All Paul is saying is that we through the promise made to Abraham and His seed can now be obtained.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

A covenant is a two way thing. So even if fully a Jewish person, even if you could track your DNA back to Abraham, if that were possible and you did not keep the law with a heart toward God and that covenant then your out. This was a promise to the Jewish people. They rejected Jesus, so that is a big problem for them, but it does not exclude them. Listen to what Jesus said here.

The Centurion:

This guy was a Roman soldier, who had no covenant, was not Jewish. He saw the authority of Jesus, He saw that When Jesus spoke, sickness listened and things changed. So he comes to Jesus to get healing for his servant. He is not a covenant man, He is a Roman solider (Spelling/???).

Jesus having compassion said I'll go to your house and heal this servant of yours. The Centurion said, "Nope, I recognize authority when I see it, I am a man who has those under my authority. If I say something the it gets done right away. All you have to do Jesus is just speak the Word only and my servant will be healed. Just command it, and it's done because that is how I know it works."

This here got the Centurion forever written in the Word of God. It amazed Jesus, even floored him because he had never seen such great faith in all of Israel. The folks that should have been believing God were not but this man who did not have a covenant with God believed him. Not only believed him but said He just had to speak the Word, and it was done. (Something we should take note of)

This is what Jesus said, no doubt some religious leaders were lurking about also.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The children of the Kingdom by birth is Israel.

Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
Luk 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

Those that were suppose to be first, shall be last. There still is a plan here as by birth God had made a promise to Abraham that He will not break.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (Chosen) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

AMP:
Rom 11:12 Now if their stumbling (their lapse, their transgression) has so enriched the world [at large], and if [Israel's] failure means such riches for the Gentiles, think what an enrichment and greater advantage will follow their full reinstatement!


Rom 11:20 That is true. But they were broken (pruned) off because of their unbelief (their lack of real faith), and you are established through faith [because you do believe]. So do not become proud and conceited, but rather stand in awe and be reverently afraid.

Rom 11:23 And even those others [the fallen branches, Jews], if they do not persist in [clinging to] their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and against nature grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much easier will it be to graft these natural [branches] back on [the original parent stock of] their own olive tree.


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.(F)
Rom 11:27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins.(G)

So through that covenant God made, He will still perform it on the behalf of Israel. We get in through faith in Christ Jesus, they just barley get in and are last.

Mike.