Abomination of Desolation in 70AD - Part 2

[JLB]

Again, concerning "this generation"I challenge you, Show me one time in the gospels (besides Math.24:34 Mark13:30 Luke21:32) where the phrase "this generation" spoken by Jesus, does not refer to his first century contemporary generation!

Jesus prophesied of future events in the Olivet Discourse.

His prophecy pertained to the generation that the signs and events belonged.
As I said -

The first century generation did not see the Abomination of Desolation with the associated Great Tribulation.

The first century generation did not see -

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing
them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken.

The first century generation did not see The Son of Man Coming in power and great glory, not did they experience the resurrection of the dead.


Now, I have a question for you -


Of your examples of Jesus using the phrase "this generation", are those examples Prophecies about the future as well?


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Luke 11:32
The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

 

[JLB]

Luke 11:32 The men of Nineveh shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Do you believe the men of Nineveh arose from the dead along with the men of the generation that lived during Jesus day [this generation], and condemned them?

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Does "this generation" refer to all the people in Jerusalem, or all the people in Israel, or all the people in the world? What is specifically meant by this phrase in this verse?

Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Jesus was rejected as Messiah by that generation in which He lived.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 29 Then He spoke to them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.

The generation that sees the signs that Jesus listed, will see the Son of Man Coming in the clouds with power and great glory.


JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

Again, concerning "this generation"I challenge you, Show me one time in the gospels (besides Math.24:34 Mark13:30 Luke21:32) where the phrase "this generation" spoken by Jesus, does not refer to his first century contemporary generation!

Jesus prophesied of future events in the Olivet Discourse.

His prophecy pertained to the generation that the signs and events belonged.
As I said -

The first century generation did not see the Abomination of Desolation with the associated Great Tribulation.

The first century generation did not see -

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing
them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken.

The first century generation did not see The Son of Man Coming in power and great glory, not did they experience the resurrection of the dead.

Now, I have a question for you -


Of your examples of Jesus using the phrase "this generation", are those examples Prophecies about the future as well?


JLB

JLB
you said "Jesus prophesied of future events in the Olivet Discourse."

In both Mark and Luke there is absolutely no language regarding "future events"

Mark 13:1 "...what manner of stones and what buildings are here....2 Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down....4 Tell us, when shall these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?

Luke 21:5 "Then some spake of the temple.....6 These things which you see, the days will cone in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down...7...when shall these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?

Absolutely no language of "future events" (that is, future to us. Of course 70 ad was future when this was spoken)

His prophecy pertained to HIS GENERATION! ".....this generation will by no means pass
away until all these things take place". Seriously, how much plainer could he have said it!
And, since you cant show me even one scripture in the gospels where the phrase "this generation" when spoken by Jesus refers to any generation except Jesus' first century generation, your interpretation appears to bs totally inconsistent with biblical interpretation!
Fact: Mark13 and Luke21 have no language concerning "future events" (such as "end of age")
Fact: Jesus spoke these discourses TO his disciples (his generation) in approx 30ad
Fact: Jesus said TO his disciples (his generation) "you shall see the AOD..."(Mark..13:14)
Fact: Jesus said "this generation" (his generation) would not die until everything he had spoken in his discourse was fulfilled (Mark13:30)
Fact: The phrase "this generation" spoken by Jesus in the gospels ALWAYS refers to his first century contemporary generation.
Fact: Your misinterpretation of Jesus' words (primarily ot quotations) causes you to twist the plain words of Jesus.

Bg the way, every generation has seen:
Signs in dun moon and stars
Distress of nations
Sea and waves roaring
Mans hearts failing from fear of earthly situations
(the powers of heaven shaken is "spiritual" and therefore not visibly seen)

Since these are common occurrences fir every generation, whg would the first century generation not have seen them?

In the end my friend, you don't argue me, you argue the very plain words and "spiritually understood" words of our Lord Jesus!

....this generation will by no means pass away until all these things take place"!!!

Believe it, the Kingdom has come!

Hope of glory

 

[Deborah13]

Do you believe the men of Nineveh arose from the dead along with the men of the generation that lived during Jesus day [this generation], and condemned them?

I don't believe you even asked this question. Sheesh, JLB. It was making the point that even the men of Nineveh repented (the were pagans) when they heard Jonas. The next verse talks about the wisdom of Solomon and even the queen of Egypt respected his wisdom. In other words "this generation" would not repent and exercise the wisdom of God.




Does "this generation" refer to all the people in Jerusalem, or all the people in Israel, or all the people in the world? What is specifically meant by this phrase in this verse?

Why would the 'world' be guilty of the death of the OT prophets? It was those in Jerusalem the "leaders" of the Jews who suffer both for the sins of their fathers for the OT prophets and for Jesus. Under the Law, it was the 'holiness and righteousness of the priest' that determined whether the nations sins were forgiven.
That is why, our sins are forgiven, the Lamb without spot or blemish. The perfectly righteous High Priest.




Jesus was rejected as Messiah by that generation in which He lived.


He was rejected as the Messiah of the Jews, by the 'priests' the leaders of that generation.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 29 Then He spoke to them a parable: "Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near.
31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.

The generation that sees the signs that Jesus listed, will see the Son of Man Coming in the clouds with power and great glory.


JLB

I was posting other "this generation" scriptures that appear to be very clear and lead up to the verses in Luke 21.
You are going to have to read through the quote section to read my answers to your questions. Sorry!

 

[JLB]

In both Mark and Luke there is absolutely no language regarding "future events"

Luke 21 and Mark 13 and Matthew 24 & 25 are all about Jesus teaching His disciples about future events.

If you choose to believe that Jesus has already come and the resurrection is past, then that is between you and The Lord.

If you choose to lead people from the truth saying, the resurrection is past, then that is between you and the Lord.


The Abomination of Desolation has been proved to you from Daniel 9:26-27, that it is not associated with the events of 70 AD.

You agreed with this saying that The AoD and verse 27 occurred between 33 AD and 40 AD.


I have answered your question and showed you from scripture that the generation that sees the signs that Jesus listed will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

This event has not happened yet.


30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

When this happens EVERY HUMAN BEING WILL SEE JESUS CHRIST. EVERY HUMAN BEING ON EARTH WILL SEE HIM IS ALL HIS GLORY. THERE WILL BE NO DOUBT AS TO WHETHER JESUS IS MESSIAH OR LORD, FOR EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM.

THIS EVENT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET SIR!


31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This event refers to Jesus gathering His people at the resurrection of the dead at the end of the age.


THIS EVENT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.


JLB

 

[reba]

This is coming to an end....

If you choose to believe that Jesus has already come and the resurrection is
past, then that is between you and The Lord.

It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not flood a forum or thread with similar posts, or many posts in succession. Allow others a chance to speak and be heard. If you are responding to multiple posts in the same thread, please consider using the multi-quote feature. Please refrain from taking a thread too far off topic. Slight tangents are ok, but we prefer to keep threads as they have been defined in the OP (Original Post).

Hope of glory has stated many time he believes in the return of the Lord. Can a post be brought forward showing different?

We can and do have different beliefs we are His kids... lets keep to the ToS and stop the attacks .

 

[JLB]

3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:3

Who does this scripture pertain to, just the ones whom Jesus spoke to, who were present at the time, or does it pertain to all.


They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household." Acts 16:31

Is this scripture just for those who heard it, or for all?


33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! 34
Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these
things take place. Matthew 24:33-34



This generation refers to the generation that see's the signs that Jesus listed, rather that the first century generation as you claim.

The first century generation did not see the Abomination of Desolation with the associated Great Tribulation.

The first century generation did not see -

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations,
with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing
them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken.
The first century generation did not see The Son of Man Coming in power and great glory, not did they experience the resurrection of the dead.

So, there you have it. There is your scripture using "this generation" that certainly does not refer to the first century generation.


JLB

You said "3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Luke 13:3
Who does this scripture pertain to, just the ones whom Jesus spoke to, who were present at the time, or does it pertain to all."

You are proving my point! Read your own words...."who does this scripture PERTAIN TO"?
That's not the issue nor the important question. Of course that scripture "pertains" to all believers, the question is, who was it SPOKEN TO?

It was spoken to the first century audience and therefore it pertains to them and also pertains to us......but it WAS NOT
spoken TO US, we were not there! Are you understanding this.

The same applies for Mark.13:14 "you shall see the AOD...".

This was spoken TO the first century audience (generation) and therefore applies to them as well as to us.....but it was not spoken to us....we were not there!

What you are trying to say is that Jesus' words in Mark 13:14 did not apply at all to his first century generation, but only applies to us......nonsense!!
Because this was SPOKEN TO THEM it must of necessity also APPLY TO THEM in some way or another. It must!

So, how does "seeing" the AOD apply the generation whom Jesus spoke these words to?
When Jesus looked in the eyes of his disciples and said "you shall see the AOD", how did
this apply to THEIR LIVES?

You even quoted yourself "what I say to you I say to all..."
Therefore Mark 13:14 was in fact spoken to his first century hearers (they are a part of "all"), so again, since it was spoken to them, how did it apply to them?

Furthermore, this was my challenge:

JLB, I challenge you! Show me one time in the gospels (besides Math.24:34 Mark13:30 Luke21:32) where the phrase "this
generation" spoken by Jesus, does not refer to his first century contemporary generation!

I said "besides Math.24:34....", yet you used Math.24 as your example?????
You obviously can't give one JLB.
15 times the phrase "this generation" is spoken by Jesus in the gospels besides the above scripture, and NOT ONCE does it refer to any other generation except his first century generation!!!!!

Hope of glory

Jesus prophesied of future events in the Olivet Discourse.

His prophecy pertained to the generation that the signs and events belonged.

As I said -

The first century generation did not see the Abomination of Desolation with the associated Great Tribulation.

The first century generation did not see -

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing
them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for
the powers of heaven will be shaken.

The first century generation did not see The Son of Man Coming in power and great glory, not did they experience the resurrection of the dead.


Of your examples of Jesus using the phrase "this generation", are those examples Prophecies about the future as well?


JLB

JLB
You again have not addressed anything in my last post.
I clearly show that although Mark 13 does pertain to us, it was not spoken or written to us.....we were not there! The first century generation was the audience and therefore Mark 13 was spoken TO THEM, was written TO THEM and also PERTAINS TO THEM!
Please address how Mark 13:14 applied and pertained to it's original hearing audience.....you can't just say it diddnt pertain to them! It did, so how?

You can't just ignore the fact that Jesus spoke the words "you shall see the AOD" to his first century disciples who heard these words! It most certainly applied and pertained to them and the days they lived in.

Just because you don't understand the fulfillment of Jesus' words does not mean they were not fulfilled......Jesus said they would be fulfilled within his generation (Mark13:30)

Again, concerning "this generation"I challenge you, Show me one time in the gospels (besides Math.24:34 Mark13:30 Luke21:32) where the phrase "this generation" spoken by Jesus, does not refer to his first century contemporary generation!
if you cannot provide one example, then there is absolutely no reason to believe that "this generation" as spoken in the discourses refers to any generation except the first century generation either! (actually, there is no reason to believe this anyways, but at least proving it this way gives a biblical pattern and precedent for proper and consistent interpretation of the phrase "this generation")

You asked "Of your examples of Jesus using the phrase "this generation", are those
examples Prophecies about the future as well?"
Answer: search them as well as their context yourself and you shall see.

Seriously deal with my previous post please and step up to my challenge.

Blessings, Hope of glory

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30



Do you believe every person from every tribe of the earth saw Jesus come in the clouds with power and great glory in 70 AD?


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

Luke 11:32
The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
Luke 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 27:25 - Then answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us, and on our children.​

They even asked for it because they didn't recognize the time of their visitation. Why would God choose to condemn some far future generation for the rejection and crucifixion of Christ, when Christ Himself said during His incarnation that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.

Mat 15:24 - But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
​

 

[Deborah13]

Mat 27:25 - Then answered all the people, and said, His blood [be] on us, and on our children.They even asked for it because they didn't recognize the time of their visitation. Why would God choose to condemn some far future generation for the rejection and crucifixion of Christ, when Christ Himself said during His incarnation that He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.

They also said, "we have no King except Caesar"
They rose up against Rome and were destroyed by Rome.

 

[Hope of glory]

Jesus prophesied of future events in the Olivet Discourse.

His prophecy pertained to the generation that the signs and events belonged.

As I said -

The first century generation did not see the Abomination of Desolation with the associated Great Tribulation.

The first century generation did not see -

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations,
with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing
them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for
the powers of heaven will be shaken.
The first century generation did not see The Son of Man Coming in power and great glory, not did they experience the resurrection of the dead.


Of your examples of Jesus using the phrase "this generation", are those examples Prophecies about the future as well?


JLB

JLB
You again have not addressed anything in my last post.
I clearly show that although Mark 13 does pertain to us, it was not spoken or written to us.....we were not there! The first century generation was the audience and therefore Mark 13 was spoken TO THEM, was written TO THEM and also PERTAINS TO THEM!
Please address how Mark 13:14 applied and pertained to it's original hearing audience.....you can't just say it diddnt pertain to them! It did, so how?

You can't just ignore the fact that Jesus spoke the words "you shall see the AOD" to his first century disciples who heard these words! It most certainly applied and pertained to them and the days they lived in.

Just because you don't understand the fulfillment of Jesus' words does not mean they were not fulfilled......Jesus said they would be fulfilled within his generation (Mark13:30)

Again, concerning "this generation"I challenge you, Show me one time in the gospels (besides Math.24:34 Mark13:30 Luke21:32) where the phrase "this generation" spoken by Jesus, does not refer to his first century contemporary generation!
if you cannot provide one example, then there is absolutely no reason to believe that "this generation" as spoken in the
discourses refers to any generation except the first century generation either! (actually, there is no reason to believe this anyways, but at least proving it this way gives a biblical pattern and precedent for proper and consistent interpretation of the phrase "this generation")

You asked "Of your examples of Jesus using the phrase "this generation", are those
examples Prophecies about the future as well?"
Answer: search them as well as their context yourself and you shall see.
Seriously deal with my previous post please and step up to my challenge.

Blessings, Hope of glory

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30



Do you believe every person from every tribe of the earth saw Jesus come in the clouds with power and great glory in 70 AD?



JLB

JLB
Please stop asserting that I believe Jesus has phi ally returned and the resurrection is past. I have stated over and over again that I do not believe that foolishness.

It's sad that you still think that Math.24:30 has anything to do with the bodily return of the Lord.
Math.24:30 has been fulfilled!
The reason for my position is Jesus' words in verse 34..."this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled"
(JLB, your position severely corrupts Jesus' words. You imagine that he was not speaking to the generation whom he was looking at....his generation (this generation)! You say "this generation" does not mean "this generation"????

Consider Math.26:64 (Jesus speaking to Ciaphas)
...."I say unto you, Hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven"

Question: Did Ciaphas see Jesus "coming in the clouds of heaven"? Jesus said he would!
(please don't tell me that Ciaphas "saw a vision" or will "see this from hell"....,that is rediculous)

Please deal with the OP.

The first century disciples were the audience of Mark 13.....yes or no?
Jesus spoke verse 14 (as well as the entire discourse) TO his disciples....yes or no?
In verse 14 Jesus said TO his disciples...."you shall see the AOD..." ....yes or no?

please answer these questions honestly.

Hope of glory

 

[JLB]

Jesus prophesied of future events in the Olivet Discourse.

His prophecy pertained to the generation that the signs and events belonged.

As I said -

The first century generation did not see the Abomination of Desolation with the associated Great Tribulation.

The first century generation did not see -

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations,
with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men's hearts failing
them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for
the powers of heaven will be shaken.
The first century generation did not see The Son of Man Coming in power and great glory, not did they experience the resurrection of the dead.


Of your examples of Jesus using the phrase "this generation", are those examples Prophecies about the future as well?


JLB

JLB
You again have not addressed anything in my last post.
I clearly show that although Mark 13 does pertain to us, it was not spoken or written to us.....we were not there! The first century generation was the audience and therefore Mark 13 was spoken TO THEM, was written TO THEM and also PERTAINS TO THEM!
Please address how Mark 13:14 applied and pertained to it's original hearing audience.....you can't just say it diddnt pertain to them! It did, so how?

You can't just ignore the fact that Jesus spoke the words "you shall see the AOD" to his first century disciples who heard these words! It most certainly applied and pertained to them and the days they lived in.

Just because you don't understand the fulfillment of Jesus' words does not mean they were not fulfilled......Jesus said they would be fulfilled within his generation (Mark13:30)

Again, concerning "this generation"I challenge you, Show me one time in the gospels (besides Math.24:34 Mark13:30 Luke21:32) where the phrase "this generation" spoken by Jesus, does not refer to his first century contemporary generation!
if you cannot provide one example, then there is absolutely no reason to believe that "this generation" as spoken in the
discourses refers to any generation except the first century generation either! (actually, there is no reason to believe this anyways, but at least proving it this way gives a biblical pattern and precedent for proper and consistent interpretation of the phrase "this generation")

You asked "Of your examples of Jesus using the phrase "this generation", are those
examples Prophecies about the future as well?"
Answer: search them as well as their context yourself and you shall see.
Seriously deal with my previous post please and step up to my challenge.

Blessings, Hope of glory

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30



Do you believe every person from every tribe of the earth saw Jesus come in the clouds with power and great glory in 70 AD?



JLB

JLB
Please stop asserting that I believe Jesus has phi ally returned and the resurrection is past. I have stated over and over again that I do not believe that foolishness.

It's sad that you still think that Math.24:30 has anything to do with the bodily return of the Lord.
Math.24:30 has been fulfilled!
The reason for my position is Jesus' words in verse 34..."this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled"
(JLB, your position severely corrupts Jesus' words. You imagine that he was not speaking to the generation whom he was looking at....his generation (this generation)! You say "this generation" does not mean "this generation"????

Consider Math.26:64 (Jesus speaking to Ciaphas)
...."I say unto you, Hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven"

Question: Did Ciaphas see Jesus "coming in the clouds of heaven"? Jesus said he would!
(please don't tell me that Ciaphas "saw a vision" or will "see this from hell"....,that is rediculous)

Please deal with the OP.

The first century disciples were the audience of Mark 13.....yes or no?
Jesus spoke verse 14 (as well as the entire discourse) TO his disciples....yes or no?
In verse 14 Jesus said TO his disciples...."you shall see the AOD..." ....yes or no?

please answer these questions honestly.

Hope of glory

How could every person from every tribe of the whole earth see the Son of Man come in the clouds with power and great glory and not confess Him as Lord.

It would seem that if all mankind as well as all the Jews saw Jesus in all His glory, that every Jew would know He is Messiah and Lord.

How do you explain that?

JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30

Do you believe every person from every tribe of the earth saw Jesus come in the clouds with power and great glory in 70 AD?



JLB

JLB

Please stop asserting that I believe Jesus has phi ally returned and the resurrection is past. I have stated over and over again that I do not believe that foolishness.

It's sad that you still think that Math.24:30 has anything to do with the bodily return of
the Lord.
Math.24:30 has been fulfilled!
The reason for my position is Jesus' words in verse 34..."this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled"
(JLB, your position severely corrupts Jesus' words. You imagine that he was not
speaking to the generation whom he was looking at....his generation (this generation)! You say "this generation" does not mean "this generation"????

Consider Math.26:64 (Jesus speaking to Ciaphas)
...."I say unto you, Hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven"

Question: Did Ciaphas see Jesus "coming in the clouds of heaven"? Jesus said he would!
(please don't tell me that Ciaphas "saw a vision" or will "see this from hell"....,that is rediculous)

Please deal with the OP.

The first century disciples were the audience of Mark 13.....yes or no?
Jesus spoke verse 14 (as well as the entire discourse) TO his disciples....yes or no?
In verse 14 Jesus said TO his disciples...."you shall see the AOD..." ....yes or no?

please answer these questions honestly.

Hope of glory

How could every person from every tribe of the whole earth see the Son of Man come in the clouds with power and great glory and not confess Him as Lord.

It would seem that if all mankind as well as all the Jews saw Jesus in all His glory, that every Jew would know He is Messiah and Lord.

How do you explain that?

JLB

JLB you said: "How could every person from every tribe of the whole earth see the Son of Man come in the clouds with power and great glory and not confess Him as Lord.
It would seem that if all mankind as well as all the Jews saw Jesus in all His glory, that every Jew would know He is Messiah and Lord.
How do you explain that?

Answer:
First of all it doesn't say "every person of every tribe". It says "all the tribes...". You added "every person"
Secondly, the word "earth" is the Greek word "ge" and means "earth, soil, a land, region,
tract, country, territory"

Keep it in context. Jesus was a Jew, speaking to Jews regarding events which would occur within the Jews land, specifically Jerusalem.

Here is the explanation and contextual understanding: "Then shall all the tribes (twelve tribes) of the earth (the region/land of Israel) shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven...."

JLB, for the 100th time, Im not saying that these verses refer to Jesus' bodily return!
I have told you many times, Jesus is quoting OT scripture to JEWS (ISA.19:1 Dan.7:13) to warn them of imminent judgment, the establishment of his Kingdom and his exaltation as King!

The same is true of Math.26:64 "...."I say unto you, Hereafter you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven"
Jesus isn't telling Ciaphas he will see his bodily return......(yet he uses the same OT language as Math.24:30).
Again, Jesus is quoting the scriptures to a JEW-Ciaphas (Ps.110:1 Dan.7:13) to let him know that he is about to crucify Israel's King and Christ!
Brother, if Math.24:30 is referring to Jesus' future bodily return than so is Math.26:64.......and this is a huge problem for you!
Again, please don't tell me that Ciaphas "saw a vision" or will "see this from hell"....,that is ridiculous!
Ciaphas is dead and Jesus has not returned, therefore Math.26:64 does not refer to His
future bodily return.....and neither does Math.24:30.....that generation (Math.24:34) is dead also!

How do you explain this? How do you explain that Jesus told Ciaphas he would see him "coming on the clouds of heaven" (according to you his literal bodily return) yet Ciaphas did not see this? PLEASE ANSWER THIS!

Please also answer these simple questions regarding the OP which you ignored from my previous post.
The first century disciples were the audience of Mark 13.....yes or no?
Jesus spoke verse 14 of Mark 13 (as well as the entire discourse) TO his disciples....yes or no?
In verse 14 Jesus said TO his disciples...."you shall see the AOD..." ....yes or no?
PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS!
blessings
Hope of glory

 

[JLB]

Secondly, the word "earth" is the Greek word "ge" and means "earth,[/quote]

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Sorry Hope of Glory. The words of our Lord are clear and plain to read.
All the Tribes [families] of the earth will see the Son of Man coming.

You can't explain away the physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

All the families of the earth will see Him.

Every eye will see Him. Every person in the world will see Jesus Christ.


7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7



Why would any Christian want to deny this very fundamental truth of the Gospel.


JLB

Why can't you understand, I neither deny nor try to explain away the future return of the Lord. All I have ever said is that the Olivet discourses are not describing this event. I have even listed the OT scriptures which Jesus was quoting to show you this.....but you just can't or don't want to see it.

Again please answer my questions which you keep avoiding.

How do you explain that Jesus told Ciaphas he would see him "coming on the clouds of heaven" (Math.26:64)(according to you his literal bodily return) yet Ciaphas did not see this?
Please also answer these simple questions regarding the OP which you ignored from my previous post.
The first century disciples were the audience of Mark 13.....yes or no?
Jesus spoke verse 14 of Mark 13 (as well as the entire discourse) TO his disciples....yes or no?
In verse 14 Jesus said TO his first century disciples...."you shall see the AOD..." ....yes or no?

PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS, STOP AVOIDING THEM!

Hope of glory.

I haven't seen any Old Testament scriptures from you that shows where the tribes of the earth will see Jesus Coming.

Where are they?

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

They look upon Him and mourn.


7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7


When He returns every eye will see Him.


24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Mark 13:24-26

His return will affect the sun and Moon and stars.

His return will be seen, it will not be hidden or invisible.

That is the key He gave us so no one could deceive us, HE WILL BE SEEN BY ALL.


The lawless one, the man of sin, the antichrist, the son of perdition, the one who sets up the abomination of desolation in the temple, will not be seen by all, his coming will have to be spread by word of mouth.

Not so with the Coming of the Lord, He will be seen by all.

He taught us that all will see Him, even as lightning strikes in the east and is seen in the west, so it will be with His Coming.

He came once in His physical form, He will come a second time -


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


When He appears a second time, He will be seen by all, and admired.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10


19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? 1 Thessalonians 2:19

He will be seen by all, and admired by us.


JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

Secondly, the word "earth" is the Greek word "ge" and means "earth,[/quote]

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Sorry Hope of Glory. The words of our Lord are clear and plain to read.
All the Tribes [families] of the earth will see the Son of Man coming.

You can't explain away the physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

All the families of the earth will see Him.

Every eye will see Him. Every person in the world will see Jesus Christ.


7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7



Why would any Christian want to deny this very fundamental truth of the Gospel.

JLB

Why can't you understand, I neither deny nor try to explain away the future return of the Lord. All I have ever said is that the Olivet discourses are not describing this event. I have even listed the OT scriptures which Jesus was quoting to show you this.....but you just can't or don't want to see it.

Again please answer my questions which you keep avoiding.

How do you explain that Jesus told Ciaphas he would see him "coming on the clouds of heaven" (Math.26:64)(according to you his literal bodily return) yet Ciaphas did not see this?
Please also answer these simple questions regarding the OP which you ignored from my previous post.
The first century disciples were the audience of Mark 13.....yes or no?
Jesus spoke verse 14 of Mark 13 (as well as the entire discourse) TO his disciples....yes or no?
In verse 14 Jesus said TO his first century disciples...."you shall see the AOD..." ....yes or no?

PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS, STOP AVOIDING THEM!

Hope of glory.

I haven't seen any Old Testament scriptures from you that shows where the tribes of the earth will see Jesus Coming.

Where are they?

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

They look upon Him and mourn.


7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7


When He returns every eye will see Him.


24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Mark 13:24-26

His return will affect the sun and Moon and stars.

His return will be seen, it will not be hidden or invisible.

That is the key He gave us so no one could deceive us, HE WILL BE SEEN BY ALL.


The lawless one, the man of sin, the antichrist, the son of perdition, the one who sets up the abomination of desolation in the temple, will not be seen by all, his coming will have to be spread by word of mouth.

Not so with the Coming of the Lord, He will be seen by all.

He taught us that all will see Him, even as lightning strikes in the east and is seen in the west, so it will be with His Coming.

He came once in His physical form, He will come a second time -


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


When He appears a second time, He will be seen by all, and admired.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10


19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? 1 Thessalonians 2:19

He will be seen by all, and admired by us.


JLB

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10
Notice who will "look upon Him" and who will "mourn"..... THE HOUSE OF DAVID AND THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM"
Recall what I said previously concerning Math.24:30
"Keep it in context. Jesus was a Jew, speaking to Jews regarding events which would occur within the Jews land, specifically Jerusalem.
Here is the explanation and contextual understanding: "Then shall all the tribes (twelve tribes) of the earth (the region/land of Israel) shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven...."

The cross fulfilled Zechariah.12:10......it was the 12 tribes of the land of Israel (the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem) that were to "look upon him" (see) and "mourn".
The words "look upon" of Zechariah.12:10 also mean "to regard, to consider".
The house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem "showed regard to and considered" Jesus (looked upon him) after the total destruction of Judaism in 70ad.....this was indeed a time of great mourning for all the tribes of "that land".

Now can you please answer my questions and stop avoiding them so we can deal with the OP.

How do you explain that Jesus told Ciaphas he would see him "coming on the clouds of heaven" (Math.26:64)(according to you his literal bodily return) yet Ciaphas did not see this?
Please also answer these simple questions regarding the OP which you ignored from my previous post.
The first century disciples were the audience of Mark 13.....yes or no?
Jesus spoke verse 14 of Mark 13 (as well as the entire discourse) TO his disciples....yes or no?
In verse 14 Jesus said TO his first century disciples...."you shall see the AOD..." ....yes or no?

Thank you
Hope of glory

 

[Elijah674]

I haven't seen any Old Testament scriptures from you that shows where the tribes of the earth will see Jesus Coming.

Where are they?

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

They look upon Him and mourn.


7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7


When He returns every eye will see Him.


24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Mark 13:24-26

His return will affect the sun and Moon and stars.

His return will be seen, it will not be hidden or invisible.

That is the key He gave us so no one could deceive us, HE WILL BE SEEN BY ALL.


The lawless one, the man of sin, the antichrist, the son of perdition, the one who sets up the abomination of desolation in the temple, will not be seen by all, his coming will have to be spread by word of mouth.

Not so with the Coming of the Lord, He will be seen by all.

He taught us that all will see Him, even as lightning strikes in the east and is seen in the west, so it will be with His Coming.

He came once in His physical form, He will come a second time -


28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

When He appears a second time, He will be seen by all, and admired.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10


19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming? 1 Thessalonians 2:19

He will be seen by all, and admired by us.


JLB

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10
Notice who will "look upon Him" and who will "mourn"..... THE HOUSE OF DAVID AND THE INHABITANTS OF JERUSALEM"
Recall what I said previously concerning Math.24:30
"Keep it in context. Jesus was a Jew, speaking to Jews regarding events which would occur within the Jews land, specifically Jerusalem.
Here is the explanation and contextual understanding: "Then shall all the tribes (twelve tribes) of the earth (the region/land of Israel) shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven...."

The cross fulfilled Zechariah.12:10......it was the 12 tribes of the land of Israel (the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem) that were to "look upon him" (see) and "mourn".
The words "look upon" of Zechariah.12:10 also mean "to regard, to consider".
The house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem "showed regard to and considered" Jesus (looked upon him) after the total destruction of Judaism in 70ad.....this was indeed a time of great mourning for all the tribes of "that land".

Now can you please answer my questions and stop avoiding them so we can deal with the OP.

How do you explain that Jesus told Ciaphas he would see him "coming on the clouds of heaven" (Math.26:64)(according to you his literal bodily return) yet Ciaphas did not see this?
Please also answer these simple questions regarding the OP which you ignored from my previous post.
The first century disciples were the audience of Mark 13.....yes or no?
Jesus spoke verse 14 of Mark 13 (as well as the entire discourse) TO his disciples....yes or no?
In verse 14 Jesus said TO his first century disciples...."you shall see the AOD..." ....yes or no?

Thank you
Hope of glory

First we will see a special resurrection when Christ comes, ALL OF THE RIGHTOUS! And all of the wicked dead remain dead until the 1000 years are ended.
1 Cor. 6:2-3

And about Daniel, he see's both the Abomination that makes Desolate & 70 AD together. But it is 39 yrs. apart!

See Matt. 23:38 + Christ weeping over the ex/house of God! And their free choice is seen in John 42:43-47. This finds Old Israel [TOTALLY DESOLATE] while Christ was on earth.

And the destruction of Jerusalem was for the benefit of these seen that were brought in 'two times more the child of hell than yourselves'.

--Elijah

 

[Hope of glory]

Elijah

How do you answer my questions?

How do you explain that Jesus told Ciaphas he would see him "coming on the clouds of heaven" (Math.26:64)(according to you his literal bodily return) yet Ciaphas did not see this?

The first century disciples were the audience of Mark 13.....yes or no?
Jesus spoke verse 14 of Mark 13 (as well as the entire discourse) TO his disciples....yes or no?
In verse 14 Jesus said TO his first century disciples...."you shall see the AOD..." ....yes or no?

Thanks, Hope of glory

 

[Hope of glory]

Elijah

How do you answer my questions?

How do you explain that Jesus told Ciaphas he would see him "coming on the clouds of heaven" (Math.26:64)(according to you his literal bodily return) yet Ciaphas did not see this?

The first century disciples were the audience of Mark 13.....yes or no?
Jesus spoke verse 14 of Mark 13 (as well as the entire discourse) TO his disciples....yes or no?
In verse 14 Jesus said TO his first century disciples...."you shall see the AOD.
.." ....yes or no?

Thanks, Hope of glory

(Sorry for the repeat)

 

[Elijah674]

Your verses do not come up? But was not this Christ telling the man that he was done! When He comes.. 'the house was an abomination', in other words
they were already judged lost?

And others will be able to be read if you write out the chapter with the verse?? No offense intended! The point is that there are two resurections 1000 years apart. 1 Cor. 6:2-3 & Rev. 20:5

If we are on the same page?

--Elijah

 

[Deborah13]

The point is that there are two resurections 1000 years apart. 1 Cor. 6:2-3 & Rev. 20:5

Sorry Elijah, you have lost me. Could you explain with these scriptures, please?