Abomination of Desolation in 70AD

[Zinc]

In Mark's account of the olivet discourse in Mark 13, we find strong contextual evidence which points to a 70AD fulfillment of the AOD and Jesus' "coming in the clouds".

Where is there "contextual evidence" for a "70AD fulfillment"?

I think the events were supposed to happen in the first century. But that doesn't mean that they were really fulfilled.

Notice that the disciples questions are ONLY about Jerusalems destruction and NOT about the "end of the age" as in Math.24.

The second question is controversial. It could be about more than just the temple.

 

[John 8:32]

I'm not understanding that. If Jesus put an end to end of animal sacrifice, why were they still sacrificing in 70 AD?

Go to Bible Gateway and read Matthew Henry's Commentary on these verses. That may help you. I had to do a lot of reading and looking at the Greek and the Hebrew.

If there is another temple and they start doing animal sacrifices again, which is their plan, how can that be holy? Is the covenant made in the blood of Jesus eternal or not? If not that puts a whole lot of other scripture in question. What does Hebrews say about returning to those sacrifices mean, one has fallen from grace.

God never, ever reneges on a promise does He?

2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2Ch 7:15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.
2Ch 7:16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

If Judah returns to God in the only way they know how (read Rom 11:7, 32 right about now) will He or won't He?

 

[John 8:32]

Will this temple have a holy place?... That Scripture is not written as if it is a name of a room ... That Holy Place has been gone for a couple thousand years It was Holy because God was there.

The names of the places or rooms in the Temple are Outer Court, Holy Place and Holy of Holies.

Did the names of the places within the Temple change when Antiochus IV defiled them with swines blood?


JLB

Excellent point JLB

 

[JLB]

You must be confused because I never said the great tribulation happened in 33AD.

You did when you placed the 70th week, which contains the Abomination of Desolation, in 33 AD.

The Abomination of Desolation is the direct trigger of the Great Tribulation.

For when you see the Abomination of Desolation, for then then will be Great Tribulation...

Jesus' seven year ministry is the 70th week.

Jesus Ministry is 7 years long? So He was 37 years old when He was crucified?

Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, Luke 3:23


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I'm not understanding that. If Jesus put an end to end of animal sacrifice, why were they still sacrificing in 70 AD?

Go to Bible Gateway and read Matthew Henry's Commentary on these verses. That may help you. I had to do a lot of reading and looking at the Greek and the Hebrew.

If there is another temple and they start doing animal sacrifices again, which is their plan, how can that be holy? Is the covenant made in the blood of Jesus eternal or not? If not that puts a whole lot of other scripture in question. What does Hebrews say about returning to those sacrifices mean, one has fallen from grace.

God never, ever reneges on a promise does He?

2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2Ch 7:15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.
2Ch 7:16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

If Judah returns to God in the only way they know how (read Rom 11:7, 32 right about now) will He or won't He?

God destroyed the temple in 70 AD. The blood of bulls and goats does not cut it. God said that to return to that is "trodding on the blood of Jesus".

Are you saying that in the future it will be OK again?

 

[Deborah13]

Twofold!

Are you saying a double prophecy?

I don't see how. Daniel 9 is not mainly about the destruction. The prophecy is about the Messiah the Leader. What He caused to happen. He put and end to it.
It is very specific. If it is a double then we can at least expect another 490 years before anything else happens and that would be only if the order formally goes out to rebuild the temple. AND then is Jesus going to be crucified again??

Once again, it is ALL about HIM and what HE did.

Just the way I see it.

 

[reba]

Not at all. Even if they build a temple for the people to pray in, it can be holy without having sacrifices. Perhaps if they do start sacrificing, that will defile it at this point? Maybe that's why Israel wont be raptured?

I read Matthew Henry's commentary and there is some holes in it. Nothing adds up to 1290 days? It was 3 years to the day that the statue of zeus was there. And what about the context of the chapters in Daniel speaking in chapter 12 :13? That's speaking of the end of days when he is resurrected. Is not the whole chapter in context speaking of the last days when Christ returns, and if not, why not?

A building can be holy ? a building who's purpose is to mock the Blood Of Christ?

 

[Deborah13]

abomination of desolation right before my eyes in a pan.

LOL

no more kitchen abomination gravy is called, Tupperware Quick Shake at Amazon. com

 

[Brother Mike]

Edward

We've been diverted to Mark, to Matthew Henry, but no one is really addressing many of the (good) questions I posed so temple or no temple, I'm still not seeing how all of these prophecies have been fulfilled yet. And I AM reading it with an open mind with the thought that I could be wrong, and have been praying about it too. I can't see the truth in what the preterists are putting out.

As per Matthew 24, there is no temple yet, never has been by that name as that generation with Earthquakes and signs has yet to be seen. Jesus said in that generation which has yet come. Preterist are like a lot of doctrines. They hang their belief on being Preterist, much like Calvinism hang on to just all things Calvinist. There is some truth in there somewhere covered by a ton of junk that is not true. Every extreme doctrine is like this.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

This brings a tribulation unlike man has ever seen, or the Earth has experienced.

Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Now I don't know, but creatures coming out of a big smoking gaping hole in the earth to sting and torment everyone by which they can not die, I think would trump anything up to date so far. War is one thing, but creatures that sting everyone except the 144,000 has yet to be beaten.

Mike.

 

[reba]

Like all the other Scripture theories, ideas, theologies , preterism has many flavors.... I had no knowledge of the word preterist until some internet person labeled me... I do not speak for a group , only my own sometimes disjointed thoughts...

I believe:
in the coming return of our Lord.
what we call the Olivet Discourse was the prophesy of the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem/Temple and the end of what I term Temple life...
The Cross of Christ is the center of God history center in thought not talking numbers or dates... apposed to the Jewish nation( Israel) being the center..... Hope my meaning here is clear?
the Cross was the beginning of the end of Temple life....
while building His Church ...God in His Mercy and Grace allowed 'this generation' to continue, as we see often in OT, then the end . again referencing 70 AD

Seems to me God always warned the Israelites when big trouble was coming I see the destruction of the, Temple way of life, as "big trouble"

Eschatology is not unto Salvation. It is something to talk about study learn etc. We are brothers and sisters in the Lord. One body Covered by His Blood! That is what is important..

Some where in my 66 years the dispensational teaching I grew up with faded....

 

[reba]

When we speak of the worst tribulation ever... My mind goes to the time of Noah... on the whole earth only 8 folks lived....

 

[reba]

As a place to pray and worship the Lord? Why not? I consider my church holy to an extent. Why wouldn't it be? Perhaps not. There's still the whole context of Daniel 12 thing that no one seems to be addressing. And Matthew 24. We've been diverted to Mark, to Matthew Henry, but no one is really addressing many of the (good) questions I posed so temple or no temple, I'm still not seeing how all of these prophecies have been fulfilled yet. And I AM reading it with an open mind with the thought that I could be wrong, and have been praying about it too. I can't see the truth in what the preterists are putting out.

I guess growing up 'literally' living in church buildings, our bedrooms were also the Sunday School rooms, .... they are not holy to me.... Those old fashion pews the old hand made wooden ones made the best forts when the weather was bad..... A million years ago, moms would put a quilt on the floor sorta under the pew in front of them and the little guys would sleep there during Sunday , Wednesday nite services.... now days churches have paid nursery help... sorry I have drifted off topic

 

[Brother Mike]

When we speak of the worst tribulation ever... My mind goes to the time of Noah... on the whole earth only 8 folks lived....

I would think that has yet to be topped. I don't think it's no coincidence though you mentioned that. You would be surprised at those thoughts we think are ours could be the Lord helping out.

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Peter connects the End to that flood.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Jesus connects the End to the Flood. As the days of Noah, something even worse is coming that no man has experienced or seen.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

That would cover the time of the flood and curious Jesus mentioned "Not since the beginning of the word"

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Danial says the same thing where we first see this Abomination mentioned. Jesus said when you see it, this time of trouble is coming that no other time would compare since the start of the earth.

Peter and Jesus both Mention The flood in Noah's time.

What was the purpose of the Flood? To keep the race from becoming polluted and totally evil. God saves 8 out of the how many? To destroy the wicked off the face of the earth.

What is the purpose of the day of the Lord?

Isa 13:6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

The purpose is also to destroy the sinners out of the World.

That is what I am seeing in the Word.

Blessings..............

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

I think this makes Matthew Henry's commentary and basic belief that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in 70 AD wrong. He thinks the 1290 days was in the time of the Maccabees (168 BC)

No that is not what Matthew Henry says. He says that the abomination in Daniel 11 is a separate thing. And gives the history very clearly.

He does not relate Daniel 11 to Matthew 24 or Daniel 9. Two separate prophecies about different things in different times.
this is what JLB was asking me about.

 

[Sinthesis]

You must be confused because I never said the great tribulation happened in 33AD.

You did when you placed the 70th week, which contains the Abomination of Desolation, in 33 AD.

The Abomination of Desolation is the direct trigger of the Great Tribulation.

For when you see the Abomination of Desolation, for then then will be Great Tribulation...

No I didn't. You just assume so because you are still laboring under the misconception that there is only one abomination of desolation, when in fact there are many.

Jesus' seven year ministry is the 70th week.

Jesus Ministry is 7 years long? So He was 37 years old when He was crucified?

Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, Luke 3:23


JLB

Jesus was cut off in the midst(4th year) of His ministry(70th week) when He would have been 33yrs old. After this His 7yr ministry to Judaism(Daniel's people) was completed by His apostles as led by the Holy Spirit.

 

[John 8:32]

I'm not understanding that. If Jesus put an end to end of animal sacrifice, why were they still sacrificing in 70 AD?

Go to Bible Gateway and read Matthew Henry's Commentary on these verses. That may help you. I had to do a lot of reading and looking at the Greek and the Hebrew.

If there is another temple and they start doing animal sacrifices again, which is their plan, how can that be holy? Is the covenant made in the blood of Jesus eternal or not? If not that puts a whole lot of other scripture in question. What does Hebrews say about returning to those sacrifices mean, one has fallen from grace.

God never, ever reneges on a promise does He?

2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2Ch 7:15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.
2Ch 7:16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

If Judah returns to God in the only way they know how (read Rom 11:7, 32 right about now) will He or won't He?

God destroyed the temple in 70 AD. The blood of bulls and goats does not cut it. God said that to return to that is "trodding on the blood of Jesus".

Are you saying that in the future it will be OK again?

No, did you read the references?

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Judah cannot come to Christ, they are blinded by God. Can anyone resist the will of God? Of course not. They will return to God in the only way they know how (in their current, blinded state), and God will answer. He has promised that...

2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2Ch 7:15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.
2Ch 7:16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

So, what is perpetual? 425 to 450 years? Or is perpetual forever?

 

[Deborah13]

Dan 11:21
And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries

And that is exactly what happen, in the past. It's amazing that the prophecy in Daniel is so exact with what took place. All the different rulers that came into power right down to the daughter of one marrying another one and they become enemies. Cleopatra 1.
This is why so many modern and seculars try to say Daniel was written later than it was because that prophecy is so exact with history that even unbelievers can see. So they try to discredit Daniel. Even the Jews do not include his book with the other prophets!! Ask [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION] about that.

 

[Deborah13]

Are you saying that in the future it will be OK again?

Not at all. Even if they build a temple for the people to pray in, it can be holy without having sacrifices. Perhaps if they do start sacrificing, that will defile it at this point? Maybe that's why Israel wont be raptured?

I read Matthew Henry's commentary and there is some holes in it. Nothing adds up to 1290 days? It was 3 years to the day that the statue of zeus was there. And what about the context of the chapters in Daniel speaking in chapter 12 :13? That's speaking of the end of days when he is resurrected. Is not the whole chapter in context speaking of the last days when Christ returns, and if not, why not?

Daniel 11, is a different prophecy fulfilled in a different time than Daniel 9 and Matt 24

I'm still studying Dan 12

 

[Deborah13]

We've been diverted to Mark, to Matthew Henry, but no one is really addressing many of the (good) questions I posed so temple or no temple, I'm still not seeing how all of these prophecies have been fulfilled yet.

Sorry, so much of this has been addressed in this thread and the other one it's hard to keep up!

Sometimes we have to address a question in our own minds and hearts with what we already know about Jesus and His sacrifice, from the NT.

I posted a list of the things that have to be fulfilled there are seven, and scripture that I believe shows that it was by the death and resurrection of our Lord.

I started questioning because the futurist, dispensational view says that there will be animal sacrifices during the 1000 yr reign. WHAT? I don't think so!
They try to say they are not blood sacrifices for sin, but if you read the scripture that they use to back it up, it clearly says, at least to me, sacrifices for atonement on the altar.

 

[Deborah13]

Preterist are like a lot of doctrines.

Brother Mike, I love and I really enjoy your posts. But get this.....NOT ALL WoF believers are greedy thieves, I really like Keith Moore, AND not all preterists are the Same either.
I believe as a partial preterist believes and much of that is exacting what the old church fathers taught.

Please do not label and lump people together like that, I'm not going to do that to you or Keith Moore, or Joseph Prince or......If I did I'd be throwing you in to some pretty missed up doctrine. Right??