Abortion Biblical?

[Rick W]

Gen 38:5 And she yet again conceived, and bore a son; ...

The word "conceived" and "conceive" is used many times throughout scripture to proclaim a beginning of life. Christ's conception is the beginning of His existance in the flesh. Therefore scripture absolutely proclaims the beginning of life as the instant of conception. No way around that.

But the world knows not God claiming supremacy with no higher authority. And that suits the world to crown itself as the unsurpassable authority on morality and judgment.

John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

 

[Quath]

The bible neither directly condemns or supports pediophilia. Using the authors basis of argument then that too is ok.

He is not saying that because the Bible doesn't take a stance on abortion that abortion is ok. He instead says that the Bible seems to take a stance on the quality of life and the worth of a fetus compared to a someone born. These arguments could be used to make the case for abortion. However, he thinks the Bible overall is silent on it (neither pro or con because miscarriage was the issue in Biblical times, not abortion.)

Quath, that is just cold.

Not sure what you mean by this.

The word "conceived" and "conceive" is used many times throughout scripture to proclaim a beginning of life. Christ's conception is the beginning of His existance in the flesh. Therefore scripture absolutely proclaims the beginning of life as the instant of conception. No way around that.

Do you consider the sperm and eggs as "dead"? I guess I see it as life continuing myself.

But I don't think people are debating whether a fetus is alive. After all, animals are alive, but we don't hold them sacred becase of that. What people debate is how "human" a fetus. Religious arguments tend to be on whether a soul is in the fetus and what happens to the soul if it dies.

 

[Rick W]

The word "conceived" and "conceive" is used many times throughout scripture to proclaim a beginning of life. Christ's conception is the beginning of His existance in the flesh. Therefore scripture absolutely proclaims the beginning of life as the instant of conception. No way around that.

Do you consider the sperm and eggs as "dead"? I guess I see it as life continuing myself.

I suppose I should have been a bit simpler in speech. Sorry if I assumed too much there. "beginning of life" as in beginning [insert] of a human [/insert] life.

 

[Quath]

I suppose I should have been a bit simpler in speech. Sorry if I assumed too much there. "beginning of life" as in beginning [insert] of a human [/insert] life.

I would not disagree that it is the beginning of the life and development of a human. But the Bible doen't treat a developing human with the same respect it gives developed humans.

There is also another problem. If the death of a fetus is bad then God could have made miscarriage impossible.

 

[Rick W]

There is also another problem. If the death of a fetus is bad then God could have made miscarriage impossible.

And if dying is bad He could have made death impossible.
If disease is bad He could have made a world without disease.
If hunger is bad...
If wars are bad...
If violent weather is bad...
If volcanos are bad...
And if God is bad He could just go away and leave us alone. I'm sure you'll agree with that one.

It's all God's fault though, huh?

Well, I'm thankful for all He's given none-the-less. And He's given more than we deserve.

 

[Quath]

And if dying is bad He could have made death impossible.
...
It's all God's fault though, huh?

Well, this is the theological problem of "If God is good, why is there suffering?" I think that goes beyond the discussion if abortion really goes against Biblical teachings.

Well, I'm thankful for all He's given none-the-less. And He's given more than we deserve.

A lot of this sounds like philosophical optimism. It may be interesting to start a topic on that and see what people think.

 

[lovely]

Hi Quath, somehow I overlooked this post...sorry.

What this says to me is that your beliefs justify your beliefs

.

I think that if you do not hold to an absolute Truth, then you would say this of everyone that feels sure about anything. For me, though, God justifies my belief in His authority, because He tells me this is the case. He made me, He made this world, this universe, and so He is the authority, and so my belief is justified by Him in that sense. For everyone else, they will have to use their beliefs to justify their beliefs. For the believer, we always have to refer to an authority...God. Though I admit, we still may get it wrong and revert back to using our own beliefs to justify our beliefs.

Allah offers heaven as well. Odin offers Vahalla. Buddha offers Nirvanah. Yet you have decided you can judge them. Why is it so easy to judge other gods but your own?

My God offered me grace, He came to me first and gave a witness of Himself to my soul, and then He transformed (is transforming) my life...I haven't met Allah, Odin, or Budda. I judge them based on absolute Truth from the God I have met, the Creator of the Universe...they don't exist according to Him, and so I don't have to accept them, or fear them, because Truth exists outside of me, and yet is not in me.

I agree that the Bible is pretty well perserved, but I don't think that means too much. For example, I would not believe a perfectly preserved Illiad were true. Just because ancient people wrote down the words of god(s) doesn't mean it really happened. I see no difference in the Bible and the Illiad.

It saddens me that you see no difference. I think you probably even apply Scriptural Truths in your own life...and reap the good rewards of doing so, but you fail to see that these things are part of God's Truth. He even shows mercies to the unbelievers right now. I think Scripture as whole, and the way it has consistently pointed to Christ over a span of thousands of years, is amazing. I think the message of God's love, and grace, is beautiful. However, I believe because of my faith.

Likewise, I wonder what it does to someone to worship a deity that they believe is pefectly good and yet orders children or homosexuals to be killed. That saddens me as well. But I know my words changes no one so maybe I just have to settle for a few ruffles feathers.

I think if you feel that this life is final, or that it is something apart from God's sovereign plan, then it would be hard to reconcile some of these things. Maybe it is even hard for believers. The trust that God is good is a miracle of faith, but I also know that I am not God's judge, and that these people may have had an opportunity to know Him through Christ's work on the cross. They could be in the abode of God right now.

If God is real, then I do want a sign. If he is not, then I will keep going on with my life. I am not specifically looking for a sign from God any more than I am looking for a sign from Buddha. But if Buddha or God is real, I would like to know.

This is as it should be too. I will witness that God is true, but it is His witness you need. On the other hand, I already told you that Budda is not real. :D

I think some of or differences is in how we see this. Even if I believed that God sent Jesus to die for us, it makes no sense to me. I see it as a needless sacrifice when God could have just chosen to forgive without ceremony. If God is all powerful, then he could have done that. On top of it, Jesus's death sounds more like a coma, so what was really lost? There was no sacrifice without loss.

I think that you are failing to realize that God's nature also plays a part in this process. Probably a whole other thread could be born out of this section of the discussion. Another plan could have been to just leave us in our own sin, and not love us at all. Again, farther along we'll know all about it. For now, faith in the hope of eternal life is what I have, and the Scriptures that point me to Christ.

I know you are a good person and we probably agree on so many issues. It is just our views on how the universe runs is were we see things differently. Que sera sera.

We probably do agree on many issues, but I imagine we are not supposed to agree on this one if you are not a believer and I am...it's as it should be.

Thanks for the discussion, Scott. The Lord bless you.

 

[Quath]

For me, though, God justifies my belief in His authority, because He tells me this is the case.

Has he physically told you or did someone else tell you this?

Though I admit, we still may get it wrong and revert back to using our own beliefs to justify our beliefs.

I think we have to struggle with our own personal biases.

My God offered me grace, He came to me first and gave a witness of Himself to my soul, and then He transformed (is transforming) my life

How do you know this? I am not sure how you can detect what happens to your soul.

It saddens me that you see no difference.

Yeah. I can understand how that probably feels.

I think you probably even apply Scriptural Truths in your own life...and reap the good rewards of doing so, but you fail to see that these things are part of God's Truth.

For the most part, I think a lot of morality can be derived without God. One of the best parts of the Bible is the Golden Rule. But that concept is found in almost every religion and culture (though stated in different ways). I think finding good morality can be done without religion or a god. There may be places where we disagree such as gay rights, abortion, or polygamy. However, I think there is a lot more we do agree upon (poverty sucks, wars are not fun, murder is not kind, etc. )

Until later...

 

[Rick W]

"If God is good, why is there suffering?"

Look within your heart.

Pride will not allow you to see it any other way than it's God's fault.

 

[Quath]

Look within your heart.

Pride will not allow you to see it any other way than it's God's fault.

It doesn't work that way for me. I don't blame God. I just don't believe he exists, so there is nothing to blame on him.

 

[lovely]

Hi Quath,

Has he physically told you or did someone else tell you this?

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

He spoke through the prophets...the Word, and now He speaks through His Son. Creation also speaks of God.

I received God very young, and my father, who raised me, was not a believer. I have known God since then, and I hear His voice through His Holy Spirit that speaks to me, if I listen. I have had this experience since that time. I do not hear God with my ears, but the way I do hear Him is stronger than just a sound, or even just a feeling. He sometimes moves me to action when the action doesn't even make sense. An example...

Last year I went to ask my husband to pray with me for his brother one morning. He asked me why, because I don't really know his brother at all. I told him that I didn't know why, but that I couldn't rest all that night feeling as if I needed to keep praying for him. That afternoon my husband spoke to his mother who called because she had heard from his brother, and he had been mugged the night before...stabbed. The wound was not serious, and the man fled when some other people showed up on the scene.

This doesn't happen all the time for me, btw, but sometimes. Sometimes it is urgent, like the example I gave you, and other times it is a preparation over time for something.

How do you know this? I am not sure how you can detect what happens to your soul.

I have written about five things that make no sense, and do not convey to you how I can detect what happens in my soul. I can think of many songs that try to capture what happens to your soul when you meet God, but it really seems impossible to accurately describe, or maybe there aren't enough words...or the one right word. I have heard things like it sings, it's alive, it's peace, it's overflowing with love, it's liberty, it's sight, It's purpose, etc., and I agree with all of those. They fall short, but we have only feelings to describe it, but It is more than feelings because it isn't fleeting or subject to circumstances...it's also relational to God who is outside of us, but inside. It truly is being born again, raised from the dead, given sight, liberated, etc., but it is also being grounded in absolute Truth, soundness, a plumb line, a way to discern, a security, true peace, and the like. It seems to be unspeakable, but maybe I am just not the person to find the right words.

For the most part, I think a lot of morality can be derived without God. One of the best parts of the Bible is the Golden Rule. But that concept is found in almost every religion and culture (though stated in different ways). I think finding good morality can be done without religion or a god. There may be places where we disagree such as gay rights, abortion, or polygamy. However, I think there is a lot more we do agree upon (poverty sucks, wars are not fun, murder is not kind, etc. )

I believe you see the Golden Rule in nearly every culture because we are all of one race, and all originated from Noah and his sons. The oral Word was given to all, but only the Jews were given the responsibility of keeping the oracles of God throughout the generations...the other versions are the remnants of what man once truly knew. They all have various similarities for that reason.

The Lord bless you.

 

[Quath]

He spoke through the prophets...the Word, and now He speaks through His Son. Creation also speaks of God.

At this point, I don't see God being any different from any other deity. Most deities had had prophets talka about them. Most religions also say their deities created everything. So at this point, Hinduism, Norse Mythology, Christianity, Deism, etc all look equal.

I have known God since then, and I hear His voice through His Holy Spirit that speaks to me, if I listen. I have had this experience since that time. I do not hear God with my ears, but the way I do hear Him is stronger than just a sound, or even just a feeling. He sometimes moves me to action when the action doesn't even make sense.

So it sounds like you do things without fully knowing why you do them and they turn out to have more meaning than you thought they should have. And this is how you say God speaks to you. Did I get that correct?

It seems to be unspeakable, but maybe I am just not the person to find the right words.

Thanks for trying to describe it. Feelings are one of the hardest to describe.

I believe you see the Golden Rule in nearly every culture because we are all of one race, and all originated from Noah and his sons.

I guess that is one theory. I think it is because the Golden Rule is easy to derive. It is the ultimate protection from hypocracy. It is also the compromise that works best to bind a society. The further you get away from the Golden Rule, the less stable a society is.

 

[lovely]

Hi Quath,

So it sounds like you do things without fully knowing why you do them and they turn out to have more meaning than you thought they should have. And this is how you say God speaks to you. Did I get that correct?

In a way, yes you are correct, though I rely on the things I learn in the Word a great deal more still. I am finally learning how to apply them, and how to love with God's love better...and how to love Him more, and I think that is why He is developing this other connection in me now....or maybe He's just showing it to me more. The slight difference in what you stated, and what actually happens is that I think since I have walked with Him for a while now...though I don't know the specific whys, or what fors, about how I'm being led...I do know when it is Him. I mean, I know when it is me, or Him. For me, one triggers action (faith), and the other ends up as conviction for being in the flesh. I think the Holy Spirit leads believers differently (maybe this is related to gifts, personality, or where they are in their walk with God), and to be honest about five years ago If the Holy Spirit was leading me I didn't know it, and I really wasn't looking for it in this specific way. It is only within the last five years that I can hear him on such specific things, and have been made aware of His preparations, and provisions, for me. I know an older woman who seems to be led in every move she makes...I think it would be so lovely to get to that point, but I think I am just now starting to open up to God in a more mature way....though I admit the training wheels are far from coming off. I do not have faith like hers yet, I suppose, and I have been guilty of doubt in God's ability. Because of this, His power is not strong in me, I think. The other thing that plays a part in all of this is you must really love Truth, and be ready for God to deal with you truthfully...which can sometimes hurt. Again, I am just now opening up more to the point of being teachable, but I am still such a willful person. I am praying that I learn how to overcome this as well, and then I think God will use me even more...maybe not just in this way, but maybe there are even more ways that I have not experienced. I just wanted to say that there are many times when I don't know if something it God's will, and I don't know why He doesn't show me. I know this must all sound very crazy to an unbeliever, and maybe to even some Christians, but it is the most honest way I could explain it. I could assure you that I am not crazy, but what good would that do...this is the internet after all. :-? :-D

The Lord bless you, and thanks for discussing all of this. Sometimes God uses you to cause me to think about these things in a way that I wouldn't normally, and I appreciate that.

 

[Veritas]

Quath, that is just cold.

Not sure what you mean by this.

I mean this subject you brought up and the way you are going about it is cold.

I feel like I'm part of a cold heartless experiment of yours.

You don't seem like you really care about the subject at all and that you just want to see our reactions.

And here is exactly why the Golden Rule (although it has the potential to be very good) is lacking when God is not put first.

It does not make it good or right to treat others the way you like to be treated if you've gotten the first part wrong.

 

[Quath]

I just wanted to say that there are many times when I don't know if something it God's will, and I don't know why He doesn't show me. I know this must all sound very crazy to an unbeliever, and maybe to even some Christians, but it is the most honest way I could explain it. I could assure you that I am not crazy, but what good would that do...this is the internet after all. :-? :-D

I appreciate your candor. I think I understand what you believe a little more now.

The Lord bless you, and thanks for discussing all of this. Sometimes God uses you to cause me to think about these things in a way that I wouldn't normally, and I appreciate that.

I am glad that you enjoy these debates/conservations. They cause me to do a lot of thinking as well.

I mean this subject you brought up and the way you are going about it is cold.

I feel like I'm part of a cold heartless experiment of yours.

You don't seem like you really care about the subject at all and that you just want to see our reactions.

I know that the way I approach this subject is entirely different than most Christians will approach it. So maybe it does come across as cold when I want to see how persuasive Christian arguments are. The Bible doesn't influence my morality, but I am curious as to how it influences others.

It does not make it good or right to treat others the way you like to be treated if you've gotten the first part wrong.

I tried to keep emotion out of my post because I know this subjects gets emotional very easily. But I guess I went to far. I will take this into consideration the next time I bring up such a controversial subject.

 

[Lewis]

Quath' I love you man. But Abortion being Biblical is garbage. and will always be garbage.

 

[Quath]

Quath' I love you man. But Abortion being Biblical is garbage. and will always be garbage.

Heh. The article shows:

1. The Bible is pretty silent on the subject of abortion.
2. Many Christians take verses out of context to justify their anti-abortion view.
3. The Bible makes a stronger claim for quality of life than just living.

So which of these do you agree with or disagree with?

 

[Rick W]

A couple of points:

"For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for Thou art fearfully wonderful (later texts were changed to read "for I am fearfully and wonderfully made"); wonderful are Thy works, and my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from Thee, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth. Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance; and in Thy book they were all written, the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them."

Psalm 139:13-16

Although this passage does make the point that God was involved in the creation of this particular human being, it does not state that during the creation the fetus is indeed a person.

King David was human too. I don't see why it's not unreasonable to suggest that God gives life beginning in the womb from that scripture.

"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

Exodus 21:22-25

This is a very illuminating passage. In it we find a woman losing her child by being stuck by men who are fighting. Rather than it being a capital offense, however, it is relegated to a civil matter, with the father-to-be taking the participants to court for a settlement. But, as we read on, if the woman is killed, a "life for a life," then the men who killed her shall be killed. Some have claimed that the life for a life part is talking about the baby. But from reading the context we can see this is not true. It also states a tooth for a tooth and a burn for a burn. Babies don't have teeth when they are born, and it is highly unlikely a baby will be burned during birth. It is pretty clear that this part refers to the mother. Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence -- it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death.

Abortion is not accidental, it's intentional and the baby IS the target, not the mother.

Some have claimed that the life for a life part is talking about the baby. But from reading the context we can see this is not true.

The author accepts this... that the death of the baby is accidental. Yet, he claims intentional death of the baby is of no more import than an accident. Abortion is no accident.

 

[Rick W]

The article is part of
How to Fight the Religious Right
By Larry E. McKinley
A guide to defending yourself against Fundamentalist Christians

He equates fundementists to alcoholics, addicts. He attacks everything Christian under the guise of defending himself against Christians gone bad or more accurately those that don't see things his way.. the liberal interpretation and reading of scripture.

Using his words...

He (I reference Mr. McKinley) is not to be feared, not to be taken seriously; he is to be pitied. He is not to be counter-attacked with anger; he is to be helped out of his deception by replacing his need for man-made truth with the healing touch of human love and kindness.

Quath,
He's not the first and he won't be the last. Is this the gentleman you have chosen to follow or does he simply re-enforce your need to "fight the religious right"?

 

[Quath]

King David was human too. I don't see why it's not unreasonable to suggest that God gives life beginning in the womb from that scripture.

I believe the point is that God gives all life including animal life to human life. Giving life does not mean it is necessarily sacred.

Abortion is not accidental, it's intentional and the baby IS the target, not the mother.

His point here is that if a man attacks a woman and kills her (maybe it was accidental death) he is killed. However, if he just kills the baby inside her, it is a civil matter. This would support the idea that the fetus life is not equivalent to a born human's life.

He's not the first and he won't be the last. Is this the gentleman you have chosen to follow or does he simply re-enforce your need to "fight the religious right"?

I am not a follower. His own battle is trying to figure out the Bibke when he thinks fundamentalists have perverted it. I personally think he is still wrong since he believe in God. But I think he does make some good points. And his beliefs should not take away from that.