Bible Study Abortion

[stovebolts]

As this is the Bible Study forum, it is imperative that we seek a biblical view on this subject for those who wish to participate in the discussion.

As this topic has the potential to become a heated discussion, I wish to remind all participants of the TOS which can be found at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9219

I expect each posting member within this topic to be acquainted with the TOS of 123 and adhere to your end of the agreement.

 

[stovebolts]

I have a question:

I TOO 'believe' abortion to BE 'murder' of an INNOCENT LIFE.

But HERE is the question:

IF vengence IS to BE exacted BY God and GOD alone, "Vengence is MINE......", won't those that participate in such exercises as 'abortion' be JUDGED accordingly BY GOD. And IF this is TRUTH, are WE truly able to place such DECISIONS in OUR hands instead of simply leaving that JUDGEMENT up to God.

We LIVE in a 'secular WORLD' folks. The WORLD is LOST. There is UTTER darkness in the hearts of MOST that LIVE FOR this world. ONLY thoughts and offerings of SELF. With THIS in mind, what DIFFERENCE does it MAKE if those OF THIS WORLD choose to LIVE FOR THIS WORLD. Ours is NOT to 'save the world'. There is ONLY ONE that is ABLE to offer this and it AIN'T US.

We can go BACK to the words of Christ Himself: 'those that HATE their brothers have ALREADY committed MURDER in their HEARTS'. Can we DENY what is offered here for the sake of OUR FEELINGS? Can we IGNORE what has been offered for the SAKE OF SELF?

ME, PERSONALLY, I would NEVER advocate abortion. But FOR THE WORLD, if that is what they CHOOSE to do, then there is a PRIME example of their HEARTS BEING DIFFERENT than those that are led by Christ to the Father. But SHOULD it be UP TO US to ATTEMPT to CONTROL a 'secular WORLD'? Is THAT what we have been COMMANDED to DO or even ENCOURAGED to DO?

I guess this is more an issue of 'abortion' but it pertains to the topic in that WE ARE UNABLE to CHANGE the World. God HIMSELF WILL BE FORCED to 'shorten the DAYS' or EVEN the VERY ELLECT will be LOST. That OBVIOUSLY SHOWS that WE are UNABLE to CHANGE 'the world'. It is HEADED in A particular path that WE have NO ability to CONTROL. ALL that we are COMMANDED to DO is BE an example to those that KNOW us. WE are NOT the KING of this world. And WE will ONLY be a 'part of a KINGDOM' that IS to come. EVEN THEN WE are NOT to BE the KING. Servants my friends. THAT is WHAT we ARE to BE.

By ARGUING with and BECOMING LIKE the WORLD, we are FORCED to PUT aside that which we have been CALLED to DO and BECOME 'just ANOTHER PART of THIS WORLD'.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

Imagician, can you sum that up in 1 or 2 sentences? I didn't get you point too well-too many caps.

 

[Scott1]

As this is the Bible Study forum, it is imperative that we seek a biblical view on this subject for those who wish to participate in the discussion.

As the early Christian writer Tertullian pointed out, the law of Moses ordered strict penalties for causing an abortion. We read, "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [Hebrew: "so that her child comes out"], but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot" (Ex. 21:22–24).

I'm sure other members will bomb out the Bible quotes, so I'll offer a bit of our history as Christians on this subject:

The Didache
"The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child" (Didache 2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas
"The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. . . . Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

The Apocalypse of Peter
"And near that place I saw another strait place . . . and there sat women. . . . And over against them many children who were born to them out of due time sat crying. And there came forth from them rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes. And these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion" (The Apocalypse of Peter 25 [A.D. 137]).

Athenagoras
"What man of sound mind, therefore, will affirm, while such is our character, that we are murderers?
. . . [W]hen we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God’s care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it; and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child-murder, and on the other hand, when it has been reared to destroy it" (A Plea for the Christians 35 [A.D. 177]).

Tertullian
"In our case, a murder being once for all forbidden, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb, while as yet the human being derives blood from the other parts of the body for its sustenance. To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing; nor does it matter whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to birth. That is a man which is going to be one; you have the fruit already in its seed" (Apology 9:8 [A.D. 197]).

"Among surgeons’ tools there is a certain instrument, which is formed with a nicely-adjusted flexible frame for opening the uterus first of all and keeping it open; it is further furnished with an annular blade, by means of which the limbs [of the child] within the womb are dissected with anxious but unfaltering care; its last appendage being a blunted or covered hook, wherewith the entire fetus is extracted by a violent delivery.

"There is also [another instrument in the shape of] a copper needle or spike, by which the actual death is managed in this furtive robbery of life: They give it, from its infanticide function, the name of embruosphaktes, [meaning] "the slayer of the infant," which of course was alive. . . .

"[The doctors who performed abortions] all knew well enough that a living being had been conceived, and [they] pitied this most luckless infant state, which had first to be put to death, to escape being tortured alive" (The Soul 25 [A.D. 210]).

"Now we allow that life begins with conception because we contend that the soul also begins from conception; life taking its commencement at the same moment and place that the soul does" (ibid., 27).

"The law of Moses, indeed, punishes with due penalties the man who shall cause abortion [Ex. 21:22–24]" (ibid., 37).

Minucius Felix
"There are some [pagan] women who, by drinking medical preparations, extinguish the source of the future man in their very bowels and thus commit a parricide before they bring forth. And these things assuredly come down from the teaching of your [false] gods. . . . To us [Christians] it is not lawful either to see or hear of homicide" (Octavius 30 [A.D. 226]).

Hippolytus
"Women who were reputed to be believers began to take drugs to render themselves sterile, and to bind themselves tightly so as to expel what was being conceived, since they would not, on account of relatives and excess wealth, want to have a child by a slave or by any insignificant person. See, then, into what great impiety that lawless one has proceeded, by teaching adultery and murder at the same time!" (Refutation of All Heresies [A.D. 228]).

Council of Ancyra
"Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented. Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfill ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees" (canon 21 [A.D. 314]).

Basil the Great
"Let her that procures abortion undergo ten years’ penance, whether the embryo were perfectly formed, or not" (First Canonical Letter, canon 2 [A.D. 374]).

"He that kills another with a sword, or hurls an axe at his own wife and kills her, is guilty of willful murder; not he who throws a stone at a dog, and unintentionally kills a man, or who corrects one with a rod, or scourge, in order to reform him, or who kills a man in his own defense, when he only designed to hurt him. But the man, or woman, is a murderer that gives a philtrum, if the man that takes it dies upon it; so are they who take medicines to procure abortion; and so are they who kill on the highway, and rapparees" (ibid., canon 8).

John Chrysostom
"Wherefore I beseech you, flee fornication. . . . Why sow where the ground makes it its care to destroy the fruit?â€â€where there are many efforts at abortion?â€â€where there is murder before the birth? For even the harlot you do not let continue a mere harlot, but make her a murderess also. You see how drunkenness leads to prostitution, prostitution to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather to a something even worse than murder. For I have no name to give it, since it does not take off the thing born, but prevents its being born. Why then do thou abuse the gift of God, and fight with his laws, and follow after what is a curse as if a blessing, and make the chamber of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter? For with a view to drawing more money by being agreeable and an object of longing to her lovers, even this she is not backward to do, so heaping upon thy head a great pile of fire. For even if the daring deed be hers, yet the causing of it is thine" (Homilies on Romans 24 [A.D. 391]).

http://www.catholic.com

 

[Imagican]

I've ALREADY openly admitted that abortion IS 'murder'. And NOT ONLY murder, but the murder of INNOCENCE in it's ESSENCE.

But concerning the laws of the Jews as given by Moses;

All I would like to say is this:

Christ did NOT come to CHANGE what God OFFERED through Moses. What He DID was offer the ULTIMATE forgiveness and the COMPLETION of the LESSONS that were STARTED with 'the law'.
Let me explain.

Adultery WAS punishable by DEATH durring the time that the Jews lived UNDER the Law. When the adultress was brought to Christ, He offered a BETTER teaching and one that went BEYOND that which was FIRST offered. His REPLY: "let HE who is WITHOUT SIN cast the first stone''. NEVER did He offer that the LAW was WRONG, or that it's PURPOSE had been CHANGED, what He offered was that there was MORE to the LAW than simple ADHERANCE to it. That ONCE one is ABLE to COME to an understanding of the REASON for Law, at this point they LITERALLY become MORE mature in the nature of WHAT we were DESIGNED to BE.

Christ offered that NOT ONLY is the ACT an 'act of sin', but to even THINK it is to commit the sin in your heart. UNDERSTANDING of this priciple brings us to the PURPOSE of the lesson of LAW. The law was a TEACHER. NOT meant to be followed for the simple sake of 'obedience', but OBEDIENCE MEANT to 'bring about' UNDERSTANDING. The Law was a 'teacher' who's GOAL was to TEACH God's children LOVE. HOW TO LOVE. How to love God and how to love each other. It was NOT an EASY lesson for we can still SEE today that many that would OBEY the law in it's COMPLETNESS are STILL unable to SEE that there is MUCH more to the PURPOSE than simple OBEDIENCE.

Christ taught FORGIVENESS. That even when we were His ENEMIES, He was STILL willing to go to the cross to save us from DEATH. When we BEGIN to SEE this, (understand it), we are ULTIMATELY forced to REALIZE that it is NOT up to US to JUDGE those that are liable to DESTROY themselves. We ARE to LOVE them, not only AS our family or friends, but these NEED our love MORE than those that DO 'know God through His Son'. For Christ DIDN'T come to save those that THINK they are 'righteous', but those that KNOW they are LOST and in need of redemption.

I DO NOT 'believe' that God APPROVES of the death penalty for the REASON that we have it today. For to BE appropriate, it would NEED to be applied to ALL under such law. And the UNFAIRNESS of it ALONE would BE enough for God to DISAPROVE. For US to attempt to impliment OUR 'rules' in matters of LIFE is to ATTEMPT to usurp the AUTHORITY of God. For the LAWS that we have pertaining to abortion or the death penalty are NOT GOD'S laws, but those created and enacted by a SECULAR SOCIETY that have LITTLE if ANY communion with God through His Son. My OPINIONS in these matters of course, but one BASED on a study OF The Word. Not JUST what I CHOOSE to 'believe', but what is OFFERED in scripture over and over.

That we ARE to abide by the laws of the land does NOT mean that THEY are RIGHTEOUS. For we are warned that it is not God who will punish those that DO NOT abide by the laws of the land, but those that METE out the JUSTICE that are PROVIDED by the system in question that will BRING ABOUT THE PUNISHMENT. If we take the Word LITERAL, we would be FORCED to believe that God is IN CONTROL and would NEVER allow an UNJUST system to be in power. That is NOT SO. He is a patient God and does 'things' in His OWN TIME. For there have been and WILL be MANY 'unjust systems' of LEADERSHIP offered on this planet. And God WILL 'take away' the power that these possess. But it is NOT something that happens in an INSTANCE the moment of it's FIRST misuse of power. it is something that WILL take place in HIS DUE TIME.

Now, IF we ARE to abide by the LAWS of the land and this IS a 'concrete' LAW or ORDER directly FROM God through Christ and the apostles, then that would be to SAY and BELIEVE that it's OK to have an abortion. Do ANY here BELIEVE that this IS the case CONCERNING abortion. That JUST because the secular world in which we live has deedmed it LEGAL to perform an abortion, that it's OK with God?

So HERE is a PRIME example as to HOW the words offered pertaining to the abidance of the laws of the land is NOT LITERAL. We are to abide by the laws of the land SO LONG as they do NOT conflict with that which has been offered from ABOVE. And IF we REFUSE to abide by those laws that conflict, God's MERCY is MUCH more desirous to BE OBTAINED than that which MAY or MAY not exist in the courtrooms of this world. For what we NEED to beware of is that which is ABLE to destroy the SOUL, not that which pertains to the FLESH.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Barbara Allan]

it is imperative that we seek a biblical view on this subject for those who wish to participate in the discussion.

The problem with that is of course The Bible is entirely silent on the topic.

The best approach to the subject is a personal opposition to abortion in general but avoiding criminalization of it due to the personal nature of it and seeking policies which discourage it but not at all coercively. This is in conformity with Biblical principles of distributive justice and regard for women.

 

[stovebolts]

We could start here

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Sounds pretty clear for starters. The rest is discernment.

 

[Barbara Allan]

We could start here

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Sounds pretty clear for starters. The rest is discernment.

That can't apply for abortion because a fetus is not a person.

 

[stovebolts]

Psalms 139:11-12 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hides not from you; but the night shines as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to you.

Psalms 139:13-14 For you have formed my inward parts: you have covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise you; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are your works; and that my soul knows right well.

 

[Barbara Allan]

Psalms 139:11-12 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hides not from you; but the night shines as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to you.

Psalms 139:13-14 For you have formed my inward parts: you have covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise you; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are your works; and that my soul knows right well.

SEVERAL OF THESE POETIC STYLE VERSES ARE FREQUENTLY CITED BY ABORTION OPPONENTS, HOWEVER, none of them contain any "thou shalt not have an abortion" language. And even if you use them to support your own opposition to abortion (I do) they do not provide guidance at all on abortion policy (i.e., criminalizing it or not).

 

[stovebolts]

Barbara,

Just so I'm not misunderstanding you, please clarify.

It sounds as if you yourself are against abortion as a general rule. What it appears your against is the criminalization of the act. Is this correct? (A short reply is all that is being asked of you)

I wish that I had time to post my thoughts on the issue, but I've ran out of time today. I will, however, attempt to put my thoughts (with scripture) tomorrow if I don't come back tomorrow and find that this (or other) threads got out of control.

Peace and Grace,

Jeff

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I refer people to my post in another thread:
viewtopic.php?p=377917#p377917

 

[BFSmith764]

it is imperative that we seek a biblical view on this subject for those who wish to participate in the discussion.

The problem with that is of course The Bible is entirely silent on the topic.

The best approach to the subject is a personal opposition to abortion in general but avoiding criminalization of it due to the personal nature of it and seeking policies which discourage it but not at all coercively. This is in conformity with Biblical principles of distributive justice and regard for women.

It’s not as silent as you might think, but in a sense it’s like a small voice in a room filed with noisy chatter. Yes there is not one scripture that say, thou shall not abort an unborn child, but if you understand what makes us human, then you know why abortion is murder. I have done a little Bible study on that topic as well and might be posting my studies in the Bible study forum.

 

[Barbara Allan]

Barbara,

Just so I'm not misunderstanding you, please clarify.

It sounds as if you yourself are against abortion as a general rule. What it appears your against is the criminalization of the act. Is this correct? (A short reply is all that is being asked of you)

I wish that I had time to post my thoughts on the issue, but I've ran out of time today. I will, however, attempt to put my thoughts (with scripture) tomorrow if I don't come back tomorrow and find that this (or other) threads got out of control.

Peace and Grace,

Jeff

That's a reasonable ?. The answer's yes, more or less. There are more effective and less damaging ways to oppose it.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Killing a helpless child in its mother's womb is barbaric. Its murder, plain and simple.

 

[Scott1]

That's a reasonable ?. The answer's yes, more or less. There are more effective and less damaging ways to oppose it.

Such as.....?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

2270 - Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a personâ€â€among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

2271 - Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law: You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish: "God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes."

2272 - Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life.

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3 ... t2art5.htm

 

[lianna7]

I do not think women have the right to make a councious choice to abort a child. Reasons being A. They are old enough to be responsible ...and use contraceptics , if they choose not to and get pregnant that is stupidity on their part . B. Alot of woman want an abortion because they say its the wrong time in my life for me to have a child...my anserw to that is then don't engage in the act that could result in pregnacy.


Then this is where I am torn ...today it's not unusal to see girls at 8 begin there cycle. Now if a child were to be raped and became pregnant ...In all good concience if she were my daughter I would look at it like this. She has already been through a tramatic rape and as a mother I would not make her go through a pregnancy on top of what she has been through. So for me it's a double edge sword .

 

[stovebolts]

Barbara,
Thank you for your honest reply. I appreciate your honesty and your integrity. It helped me better understand your position and eliminates some assumptions. At first, it sounded as if you were completely for abortion under any circumstance, but I see that my assumption was incorrect. Thank you for clearing that up.

I’d like to lay a foundation for this discussion from a biblical perspective if I could, and tie up some loose ends as well. My goal is to find our common ground and work from there. Fair enough?

I posted Exodus 20:13, You shall not kill. In reference to humanity. I took your response as, “a fetus is not part of humanity.â€Â

I would like to get behind Exodus 20:13 if we could since it is a part of the narrative of Israelis redemptive history. To do so, I believe it’s beneficial to visit the creation account.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

There is much we could say about this verse, but as it pertains to our discussion, let’s extract the key elements of the creation of humanity. First, humanity was formed out of the dust of the ground. Second, we became living souls when YHVH’s divine breath entered our bodies. In essence, we were created as divine dirt clods. We are the culmination of the material (dust) and the spiritual (breath of God). We (humanity) are unique among creation for we are created in the Image of God. (Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.)

Going further into the account, we were given freedom. We see this freedom granted when YHVH tells Adam to name the animals. Note, it is Adams discernment within the context of his relationship between YHVH and the animals which their names derive. It is through experience that Adam discovers his holy relationship with YHVH.

As part of the gift of being granted freedom, was the responsibility to heed one simple warning. Simply put, “don’t eat from that treeâ€Â. Pretty simple huh? The real issue at hand here Barbara isn’t that Eve took the fruit and gave it to Adam, but we continue to take from that tree thinking more of our God given freedoms than we ought.

I realize that this is getting long, so I’ll try to shorten this and end soon. If you have any questions, we can come back.

There is a principal that the Pharisees missed when Jesus addressed them concerning the resurrection and I’ll quote his response, (and I’ll leave it up to you to read the chapter) Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

As a direct reply to your post, “That can't apply for abortion because a fetus is not a person.â€Â, First, God does not want us to kill, because we (all of humanity regardless of ones view) are divine dirt clods. We are called to be holy and the law was written to God’s people so that God could commune with them as a holy people. But more on the line of, “a fetus is not a personâ€Â, please take the principal set forth in Mt 22 and apply it to the direct words of Gabrial when he said to Joseph, “Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.â€Â

God views humanity from conception. Notice the order. 1. Be with child. 2. Bring forth a son. 3. Give him a name.

To be with child begins at conception. To bring forth a child is to birth a child, and just like Adam naming the animals in the garden, we name our child in relation to our experience.

All of life is sacred to YHVH and as His people; we are called to be a holy priesthood, to be a light for the nations. In the ancient days, if you wanted to see what one’s God looked like, you looked at their priests. As Christians, when people look to us, what kind of God do they see?

I realize that this does not really touch on your issue, but if we can use this as a springboard to discern the choices we make, and the God we reflect, it might help us to better understand how holy and forgiving our God truly is.

Peace and Grace be with you,
Jeff

 

[Barbara Allan]

That's a reasonable ?. The answer's yes, more or less. There are more effective and less damaging ways to oppose it.

Such as.....?

The abortion rate is almost an exact copy of the economic cycle. Ensure women have resources to care a child and that will take care of most situations. Do not penalize women for being single mothers. Provide birth control to all. Best of all, get girls interested in careers.