[_ Old Earth _] absolute morality

[Asimov]

how can equilibrium be disturbed or horror/disgust felt if an understanding of what is supposed to be right doesn't exist?

There is also the notion that some behaviours are genetic. That could be a possibility. One possibility, particularly in violent deaths, would be one of shock because you're looking at a person who's insides are on the outside...such as blood, and other gory parts.

Obviously people are not supposed to look like that, becuase when you look at other people, you don't see this. What's normal is that people don't have their insides on the outside.

It's the same when children see deformed people, or someone missing an arm, or a leg. The registered shock is because they haven't seen that before, and disgust, because they don't know why that person has that deformity.

It's interesting because animals that do die of natural, nonviolent causes, the child isn't shocked, but confused. They think the animal is sleeping, or they don't understand why it's not waking up.

No doubt an interesting theory but the question is where did society get the notion of morality in the first place…I believe God gave it to us.

Mammals (apes in particular), are extremely social beings. They function in a tightly knit community. In order for that community to function, the animals in the community behave in a certain way that will allow their community to survive. Communities which display outright violence towards one another within the community would quickly die out. So the social behaviour is one based on dependance.

We depend upon each other to survive, as much as we depend upon others. Therefore, morals come into play.

 

[Asimov]

There hasn't been a mention of the corrupt human nature. I believe that there is a correct morality that God has handed down. I don't think it is in everyone(sociopaths).

The corrupt nature would require us to at least learn some moral obligations. We by nature are evil and require guidance whether by learning or supernatural influences.

I can't stand ideas that state that man is inherently evil and destructive.

It is self-destructive to teach your children and believe that we are evil by nature.

Besides, good and evil don't exist.

 

[ThinkerMan]

There hasn't been a mention of the corrupt human nature. I believe that there is a correct morality that God has handed down. I don't think it is in everyone(sociopaths).

The corrupt nature would require us to at least learn some moral obligations. We by nature are evil and require guidance whether by learning or supernatural influences.

I can't stand ideas that state that man is inherently evil and destructive.

It is self-destructive to teach your children and believe that we are evil by nature.

Besides, good and evil don't exist.

Plus....if we are inherantly evil and sinful people....

What does that say about our supposed creator? Not exactly a ringing endorsement of morality from God, in my opinion, if he is the one who imparted us with this bent.

 

[Blazin Bones]

What are you talking about? Opinion hindges on subjectivity, not in any way on absolute truth. How in any way can you justify the statement you just made?

People form their opinions based on what they see is true, correct. Absolute truth is a definet. If people are forming opinion based on truth, and truth is absolute, then there must also be an absolute morality. The trick is finding what that is.

 

[Asimov]

People form their opinions based on what they see is true, correct. Absolute truth is a definet. If people are forming opinion based on truth, and truth is absolute, then there must also be an absolute morality. The trick is finding what that is.

That's a little odd, Brutus, lemme see if I can break it down.

1)Absolute truth exists.
2)People form their opinions based on what THEY see is true (relative.)
3)Therefore people form their opinions on truth.
4)Therefore there is absolute morality.

Huh?

 

[Blazin Bones]

Yes, just because a persons opinion is relative, doesn't make their opinion correct. Stinks right, we are all wrong sometimes, except Christ. That's just the way it is.

 

[Asimov]

Yes, just because a persons opinion is relative, doesn't make their opinion correct. Stinks right, we are all wrong sometimes, except Christ. That's just the way it is.

Um....what?

now your logic is:

1)A persons opinion is relative.
2)A persons opinion is not always correct.
3)Christ is always right.

So? What's your point? You're jumping your argument everywhere, and your meandering like a drunk man.

 

[dragon]

I MEAN NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE. BEWARE--SENSITIVE

you brought up some good points there asimov. but, what about child molestation (no penetration)--it's not really messy or gory doesn't usually involve violence or displaced body parts and is physically pleasurable, yet everyone knows it's wrong.

 

[dragon]

KnarfKS,

what is interesting is that even sociopaths/serial killers know that what they are doing is wrong. whether or not they choose to do it is another thing.

 

[dragon]

asimov,

humankind is grossly overpopulated. since lethal injection is not messy or painful, do you foresee a future where murder is deemed right--where it becomes a part of culture, a demonstration of love, an act of kindness?

 

[keebs]

but, what about child molestation (no penetration)--it's not really messy or gory doesn't usually involve violence or displaced body parts and is physically pleasurable, yet everyone knows it's wrong.

If everybody thought it was wrong then nobody would be out there molesting children. Those people may know that other people think it's wrong, but they certainly don't think it is.

what is interesting is that even sociopaths/serial killers know that what they are doing is wrong.

Once again, they know other people think it's wrong. If they personally thought it was wrong they wouldn't do it.

humankind is grossly overpopulated. since lethal injection is not messy or painful, do you foresee a future where murder is deemed right--where it becomes a part of culture, a demonstration of love, an act of kindness?

HAHAHA that's great...I seriously hope you're joking.

 

[Asimov]

you brought up some good points there asimov. but, what about child molestation (no penetration)--it's not really messy or gory doesn't usually involve violence or displaced body parts and is physically pleasurable, yet everyone knows it's wrong.

No they don't. In order to fully qualitfy this statement, I have to refer to my mother, who was sexually abused as a child until she was 14. She wasnt' aware that it was wrong until she was older (late teens), she thought that it happened to everyone.

Second, a lot of cultures (such as the ancient greeks) held the belief that a relationship between a young boy and a man was completely natural and ok.

what is interesting is that even sociopaths/serial killers know that what they are doing is wrong. whether or not they choose to do it is another thing.

And the only reason they know that it is wrong, is because they are brought up to think that it is wrong.

humankind is grossly overpopulated. since lethal injection is not messy or painful, do you foresee a future where murder is deemed right--where it becomes a part of culture, a demonstration of love, an act of kindness?

Depends on what context you're referring to.

 

[Chupacabra]

humankind is grossly overpopulated. since lethal injection is not messy or painful, do you foresee a future where murder is deemed right--where it becomes a part of culture, a demonstration of love, an act of kindness?

Heh, I just finished the last story in Welcome to the Monkey House today and this post sort of reminds me of it. Anyhow, what about birth control? By developing better forms of birth control and making them more accesible to regions with astronomical birthrates (like Latin America and Africa) we wouldn't have to worry about overpopulation.

 

[Asimov]

humankind is grossly overpopulated. since lethal injection is not messy or painful, do you foresee a future where murder is deemed right--where it becomes a part of culture, a demonstration of love, an act of kindness?

Heh, I just finished the last story in Welcome to the Monkey House today and this post sort of reminds me of it. Anyhow, what about birth control? By developing better forms of birth control and making them more accesible to regions with astronomical birthrates (like Latin America and Africa) we wouldn't have to worry about overpopulation.

And imposing birthing restrictions on families to one or two children.

 

[Featherbop]

Humans consider God's standards and beliefs regarding morality as absolute, correct, or best of all possible systems of morality.

So, God has the ability to form opinions, correct? God is logical, reasonable....So God creates His system of morality and imparts it to humankind. God has deduced the most logical morality, but it is still subjective, His opinion or will of how human morailty should be....but the wisest, most logical working of morality.

So morality may or may not be absolute, but we know what works best.

:-?

 

[Chupacabra]

but the wisest, most logical working of morality.

While god would probably have to be a logical being, why would a god have to be good? The events of the old testament seem to suggest a cruel and sadistic god, so maybe he, for whatever reason, devised meaningless or even harmful laws.

So morality may or may not be absolute, but we know what works best.

Not necessarily. I put "works" in bold to point out what you are saying. Assuming god's morality is the same for every person and every location, I don't think it would work the best. Sometimes different value systems work best in different areas.

 

[dragon]

asimov,

uhm, they may not know it is wrong at a conscious level, but definately at a subconscious level. if not, there would not be any psychological trauma.

believe me, your mom most definately knew.

 

[dragon]

asimov,

not enough cultures to disprove absolute morality. the majority of human cultures throughout all of human history carry the same moral base. besides, a decline in morals is one of the main reasons for the fall of the roman empire. if morals were contingent on culture/outside factors and there is no right/wrong, how could these behaviors have aided in the death of a culture?

see, this is where the ape argument falls apart. you used ape culture to parallel human culture and to illustrate how positive/negative behaviors determine the future of a species:

you said: communities which display outright violence towards one another within the community quickly die out.

that would mean: violence=negative (bad); bad=extinction.

but then you used the Romans/Greeks to imply that there is no right/wrong (good/bad):

that would mean: violence=nothing; nothing=extinction

now, that doesn't make any sense, does it?

on the other stuff:

sociopaths: actually, since most of them are brought up with skewed morals--abuse (physical, sexual, etc.), they grow up being taught that these things are right.

Depends on what context you're referring to...

any context, man. :D don't tell me you're avooiding my question!

 

[Asimov]

asimov,

uhm, they may not know it is wrong at a conscious level, but definately at a subconscious level. if not, there would not be any psychological trauma.

believe me, your mom most definately knew.

I'm glad you have such amazing insight into my moms life. Suffice to to say, the psychological trauma wasn't the abuse part, it was being neglected and not loved.

 

[Chupacabra]

the majority of human cultures throughout all of human history carry the same moral base. besides

Totally incorrect. Examine ancient Western, Buddhist, African, Native American, and modern American morality and you'll find that they are totally different from one another.

decline in morals is one of the main reasons for the fall of the roman empire.

Not true at all. One of the main causes of the Roman empire's decline was lack of civic pride and apathy towards politics, weakening Rome's social structure to the point where it was vulnerable to the Germanic tribes. To compound this, the empire swelled to an indefensibly large size. As for lack of morals causing its decline, just look at its height. When cultures were conquered or assimilated into the empire, many of their traditions and practices were unmolested, suggesting moral and cultural relativism. Gladiator matches and other violent forms of entertainment were quite popular during Rome's peak. Surely these are immoral. Oh, and we must not forget that Rome was pagan during its rise and declined only after Christianity became the state religion.

if morals were contingent on culture/outside factors and there is no right/wrong, how could these behaviors have aided in the death of a culture?

As I pointed out, this claim isn't true, but even if it were, it would not necessarily prove absolute morality either. In many ways, it would just support the functionalist notion that societies create norms based on their own unique needs for order in their own unique situations. In absense of common norms, a society becomes less conformist, and therefore it becomes weaker in many ways because of the lack of solidarity.