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Agape Love is the Type Used to Love the Darkness?

Hospes

Member
This thread is actually the continuation of a rabbit trail a number of us headed down in a separate thread. It got interesting/enjoyable enough to think it is worth its own thread.

The pop evangelical culture I grew up in defined agape love as "God's type of love" and held it up as kind of a gold standard of the various forms of love. (Mind you, there are some very good and Biblical reasons for this.) But with time I am thinking this is an overly-simple definition.

In John 3:19, Jesus uses the word agape for describing the affinity that evil-acting persons have for the darkness. In this verse, the idea that agape is Godlike love falls way short of meaningful, much less useful.

John 3:19–20 (ESV) [Jesus speaking to Nicodemus]​
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved [agape] the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.​

So, really, what is agape if you can use it to stay in darkness because you want to hide your evil?
 
This thread is actually the continuation of a rabbit trail a number of us headed down in a separate thread. It got interesting/enjoyable enough to think it is worth its own thread.

The pop evangelical culture I grew up in defined agape love as "God's type of love" and held it up as kind of a gold standard of the various forms of love. (Mind you, there are some very good and Biblical reasons for this.) But with time I am thinking this is an overly-simple definition.

In John 3:19, Jesus uses the word agape for describing the affinity that evil-acting persons have for the darkness. In this verse, the idea that agape is Godlike love falls way short of meaningful, much less useful.

John 3:19–20 (ESV) [Jesus speaking to Nicodemus]​
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved [agape] the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.​

So, really, what is agape if you can use it to stay in darkness because you want to hide your evil?
This is very good, and it certainly causes us to pause. I understand how words change meanings through the course of time and this illustrates that point.
 
So, really, what is agape if you can use it to stay in darkness because you want to hide your evil?
The love of evil ... now that is a different take on love. :chin

Agape Definition: John tells us that “God is love (agape)”(1 John 4:8). "What is agape love?" The Greek word agape means goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in the object of love. Agape love involves faithfulness, commitment, and an act of the will. www.gotquestions.org/agape-love.html

In regards to John 3:19-20 ... Those who are not 'in Christ' are committed to favoring 'darkness' (analogous to evil) because they are evil; their father is Satan (John 8:44). Brings to mind: Amos 3:3 Shall two walk together, except they have agreed? ASV

Aside: In God who is holy (separated from evil), love it is distinguished by its lofty moral nature.
 
That use of agape in that verse is very interesting and requires me to look at it more deeply.
I saw where the bible has 5 Greek words for love. Agape, Eros, Storge, Philio, and Epithumia. And so I did some research on their meanings and came to look at it this way.

Eros (romantic love), Philip (brotherly love), and storage (affection) are 3 different types of love on a spectrum. Epithumia (lust) and agape (true love) are the two opposite ends of this spectrum. The love that I have for my daughter (storage) would find itself on the spectrum close to agape where the love that I have for my coworkers (philio) would honestly have to be placed close to Epithumia because I barely like them. The love that I have for my brother (again philio) would probably be on the middle of the spectrum and the love that I have for my wife (Eros) again close to agape where my daughter is. I feel that in order to love God with our entirety we need to love God with all three types all the way on the agape side of the spectrum a feat impossible to do without the help of God.

Just a thought about love and relationships. And of course I dont have any evidence for this exept my own observations and reasonings.
 
The love of evil ... now that is a different take on love. :chin

Agape Definition: John tells us that “God is love (agape)”(1 John 4:8). "What is agape love?" The Greek word agape means goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in the object of love. Agape love involves faithfulness, commitment, and an act of the will. www.gotquestions.org/agape-love.html

In regards to John 3:19-20 ... Those who are not 'in Christ' are committed to favoring 'darkness' (analogous to evil) because they are evil; their father is Satan (John 8:44). Brings to mind: Amos 3:3 Shall two walk together, except they have agreed? ASV

Aside: In God who is holy (separated from evil), love it is distinguished by its lofty moral nature.
Agape mean goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight. Could these be applied to a God who created some people for the purpose of them being the children of Satan? Would it be considered being benevolent to the person to create them to do evil deeds and then spend eternity in hell for choices they did not actually make?
 
I don't know greek, and I don't have the resources right now to verify. But can anyone who knows greek or has access to the greek verify if this is Agape?


ἀγαπάω ἀγάπη

I. [select] of persons, to treat with affection, to caress, love, be fond of, c. acc., attic for ἀγαπάζω, Plat., etc.; Pass. to be beloved, id=Plat., Dem.
2. [select]
in NTest. to regard with brotherly love, v. ἀγαπή.
II. [select] of things, to be well pleased or contented at or with a thing, c. dat., Dem., etc.; also c. acc. rei, id=Dem.; absol. to be content, Luc.: —ἀγ. ὅτι.., εἰ.., ἐὰν.., to be well pleased that . . ., Thuc., etc.
 
First, I do not want to come off as knowing NT Greek. I do manage to muddle my way to good information via some resources. Hope you find the stuff below useful.

Yes, both these words are forms of agape.

Here's some good stuff from the excellent resource Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words.

BELOVED
A. Adjective.
agapetos (ἀγαπητός, 27), from agapao, “to love,” is used of Christ as loved by God, e.g., Matt. 3:17; of believers (ditto), e.g., Rom. 1:7; of believers, one of another, 1 Cor. 4:14; often, as a form of address, e.g., 1 Cor. 10:14. Whenever the KJV has “dearly beloved,” the RV has “beloved”; so, “well beloved” in 3 John 1; in 1 John 2:7, KJV, “brethren” (adelphos), the RV has “beloved,” according to the mss. which have agapetos. See DEAR.
B. Verb.
agapao (ἀγαπάω, 25), in its perfect participle passive form, is translated “beloved” in Rom. 9:25; Eph. 1:6; Col. 3:12; 1 Thess. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13. In Jude 1 the best texts have this verb (RV); the KJV, “sanctified” follows those which have hagiazo. See LOVE.
Note: In Luke 9:35, the RV, translating from the most authentic mss., has “My chosen” (eklego), for KJV, “beloved” (agapetos); so in Philem. 2, “sister” (adelphe).

LOVE (Noun and Verb)
A. Verbs.
1. agapao (ἀγαπάω, 25) and the corresponding noun agape (B, No. 1 below) present “the characteristic word of Christianity, and since the Spirit of revelation has used it to express ideas previously unknown, inquiry into its use, whether in Greek literature or in the Septuagint, throws but little light upon its distinctive meaning in the NT. Cf, however, Lev. 19:18; Deut. 6:5.
“Agapē and agapaō are used in the NT (a) to describe the attitude of God toward His Son, John 17:26; the human race, generally, John 3:16; Rom. 5:8, and to such as believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, particularly, John 14:21; (b) to convey His will to His children concerning their attitude one toward another, John 13:34, and toward all men, 1 Thess. 3:12; 1 Cor. 16:14; 2 Pet. 1:7; (c) to express the essential nature of God, 1 John 4:8.
“Love can be known only from the actions it prompts. God’s love is seen in the gift of His Son, 1 John 4:9, 10. But obviously this is not the love of complacency, or affection, that is, it was not drawn out by any excellency in its objects, Rom. 5:8. It was an exercise of the divine will in deliberate choice, made without assignable cause save that which lies in the nature of God Himself, Cf. Deut. 7:7, 8.
“Love had its perfect expression among men in the Lord Jesus Christ, 2 Cor. 5:14; Eph. 2:4; 3:19; 5:2; Christian love is the fruit of His Spirit in the Christian, Gal. 5:22.
“Christian love has God for its primary object, and expresses itself first of all in implicit obedience to His commandments, John 14:15, 21, 23; 15:10; 1 John 2:5; 5:3; 2 John 6. Self-will, that is, self-pleasing, is the negation of love to God.
“Christian love, whether exercised toward the brethren, or toward men generally, is not an impulse from the feelings, it does not always run with the natural inclinations, nor does it spend itself only upon those for whom some affinity is discovered. Love seeks the welfare of all, Rom. 15:2, and works no ill to any, 13:8–10; love seeks opportunity to do good to ‘all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith,’ Gal. 6:10. See further 1 Cor. 13 and Col. 3:12–14.”*
In respect of agapao as used of God, it expresses the deep and constant “love” and interest of a perfect Being towards entirely unworthy objects, producing and fostering a reverential “love” in them towards the Giver, and a practical “love” towards those who are partakers of the same, and a desire to help others to seek the Giver. See BELOVED.
2. phileo (φιλέω, 5368) is to be distinguished from agapao in this, that phileo more nearly represents “tender affection.” The two words are used for the “love” of the Father for the Son, John 3:35 (No. 1), and 5:20 (No. 2); for the believer, 14:21 (No. 1) and 16:27 (No. 2); both, of Christ’s “love” for a certain disciple, 13:23 (No. 1), and 20:2 (No. 2). Yet the distinction between the two verbs remains, and they are never used indiscriminately in the same passage; if each is used with reference to the same objects, as just mentioned, each word retains its distinctive and essential character.
Phileo is never used in a command to men to “love” God; it is, however, used as a warning in 1 Cor. 16:22; agapao is used instead, e.g., Matt. 22:37; Luke 10:27; Rom. 8:28; 1 Cor. 8:3; 1 Pet. 1:8; 1 John 4:21. The distinction between the two verbs finds a conspicuous instance in the narrative of John 21:15–17. The context itself indicates that agapao in the first two questions suggests the “love” that values and esteems (cf. Rev. 12:11). It is an unselfish “love,” ready to serve. The use of phileo in Peter’s answers and the Lord’s third question, conveys the thought of cherishing the Object above all else, of manifesting an affection characterized by constancy, from the motive of the highest veneration. See also Trench, Syn., Sec.xii.
Again, to “love” (phileo) life, from an undue desire to preserve it, forgetful of the real object of living, meets with the Lord’s reproof, John 12:25. On the contrary, to “love” life (agapao) as used in 1 Pet. 3:10, is to consult the true interests of living. Here the word phileo would be quite inappropriate.
Note: In Mark 12:38, KJV, thelo, “to wish,” is translated “love” (RV, “desire”).
B. Nouns.
1. agape (ἀγάπη, 26), the significance of which has been pointed out in connection with A, No. 1, is always rendered “love” in the RV where the KJV has “charity,” a rendering nowhere used in the RV; in Rom. 14:15, where the KJV has “charitably,” the RV, adhering to the translation of the noun, has “in love.”
Note: In the two statements in 1 John 4:8 and 16, “God is love,” both are used to enjoin the exercise of “love” on the part of believers. While the former introduces a declaration of the mode in which God’s love has been manifested (vv. 9, 10), the second introduces a statement of the identification of believers with God in character, and the issue at the Judgment Seat hereafter (v. 17), an identification represented ideally in the sentence “as He is, so are we in this world.”
2. philanthropia (φιλανθρωπία, 5363) denotes, lit., “love for man” (phileo and anthropos, “man”); hence, “kindness,” Acts 28:2, in Titus 3:4, “(His) love toward man.”¶ Cf. the adverb philanthropos, “humanely, kindly,” Acts 27:3.¶
Note: For philarguria, “love of money,” 1 Tim. 6:10, see MONEY (love of). For philadelphia, see BROTHER, Note (1).
 
ok...going way out on a limb here, 0 knowledge of Greek, so...tolerate me, please...

if the vessels of mercy are to agape love other believers, both as a moral endeavor in and of itself...and because it is part of "dying to self, daily" and letting The Lord take over more and more of our daily being, as we are '...transformed by the renewal of your mind..." and such...

then, wouldn't it stand to reason that the vessels of wrath, who are the evil one's, would agape love darkness and all the sinful twists and turns on the broad road...

as they are "conformed unto the ways of this world..." ??? or...not so much?

im kinda sorta reminded of being 'slaves of sin, or slaves of righteousness,' here. but i don't know Greek, and I've kind of fallen out of love with major theological reading.
 
Agape mean goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight.
I agree with this definition. I prefer the simpler definition: "a volition to favor".
Could these be applied to a God who created some people for the purpose of them being the children of Satan?
Preample1: Definition of "hate": "A volition to disfavor".
Strictly speaking, wrath/hate is not an attribute of God’s nature, but is his “holy justice against sin”. Joel Beeke Reformed Systematic Theology

Preample2: “A love of holiness cannot be without a hatred of everything that is contrary to it. As God necessarily loves himself, so he must necessarily hate everything that is against himself; if he did not love his image, and loathe what is against his image, he would loathe himself, he would be an enemy to his own nature.

Answer: No, God does not take willful delight (volition to favor) in the children of Satan. He Hates (volition to disfavor) said children.
Leviticus 20:23; Psalm 2:4-9; Psalm 11:4-5,6; Psalm 11:5; Psalm 58:10a; Proverbs 3:32a; Proverbs 6:16–19; Nahum 1:2; Hosea 9:15; Malachi 1:3-4; John 3:36; Romans 9:13; Romans 9:22; 1 Corinthians 16:22; Revelation 14:10, 11; Revelation 18:20; Psalm 5:4; Psalm 7:11; Psalm 11:5-7; Habakkuk 1:13

Would it be considered being benevolent to the person to create them to do evil deeds and then spend eternity in hell for choices they did not actually make?
Aside: I don't accept the terminology in the premise ... specifically the wording "create them to do evil". I prefer the word "allowed" instead of "created".

Answer: No. Same logic as previous answer. God is Holy and just. He cannot love (volition to favor) who He hates (volition to disfavor).
 
Agape mean goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight.
I do think you are onto something with pointing out delight, but willful delight? How does one will delight? Seems to me delight comes from seeing something we really like and our un-willed response is delight. E.g. I see my toddler grandson walk around with a bucket on his head and I feel delight in who he is and smile at what he's doing. I don't see myself willing it; it just happens. I guess I'm seeing delight, goodwill, and benevolence not necessarily being agape, but rather the manifestations of agape. They are fruit, but what's the root?
 
then, wouldn't it stand to reason that the vessels of wrath, who are the evil one's, would agape love darkness and all the sinful twists and turns on the broad road...
I think you are seeing an stating what is in John 3:19. Due to their agape love for darkness, they pursue "the sinful twists and turns on the broad road". Due to the Christian's agape for light, a Christian pursues good things, the highest of which is Christ Himself.
 
This thread is actually the continuation of a rabbit trail a number of us headed down in a separate thread. It got interesting/enjoyable enough to think it is worth its own thread.

The pop evangelical culture I grew up in defined agape love as "God's type of love" and held it up as kind of a gold standard of the various forms of love. (Mind you, there are some very good and Biblical reasons for this.) But with time I am thinking this is an overly-simple definition.

In John 3:19, Jesus uses the word agape for describing the affinity that evil-acting persons have for the darkness. In this verse, the idea that agape is Godlike love falls way short of meaningful, much less useful.

John 3:19–20 (ESV) [Jesus speaking to Nicodemus]​
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved [agape] the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.​

So, really, what is agape if you can use it to stay in darkness because you want to hide your evil?

I don't see what the problem is here. People of darkness love the darkness. They can love it with as much passion as people of the light can love the light.

Quantrill
 
The question at hand is:
So, really, what is agape if you can use it to stay in darkness because you want to hide your evil?

I don't see what the problem is here. People of darkness love the darkness. They can love it with as much passion as people of the light can love the light.

Quantrill
In my opinion the discussion is "what is the definition of agape love" and Hospes brings up the interesting point that whatever your definition is, the definition must allow for agape love being a sinful thing in some circumstances as pointed out by John 3:19-20.
 
So, really, what is agape if you can use it to stay in darkness because you want to hide your evil?

That sounded very strange to me so I looked up that verse & word on BlueLetterBible.com and it doesn't say that at all. It says,
  1. of persons
    1. to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
  2. of things
    1. to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing...
    1. So it's not like God's love is fueling their evil intents and desires, it just means that they are much more fond of doing evil than they are of God.
 
That's weird. It wanted to keep making bullet points for me and not just let me write. I dunno how to change that.
 
That sounded very strange to me so I looked up that verse & word on BlueLetterBible.com and it doesn't say that at all. It says,
  1. of persons
    1. to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly
  2. of things
    1. to be well pleased, to be contented at or with a thing...
    1. So it's not like God's love is fueling their evil intents and desires, it just means that they are much more fond of doing evil than they are of God.
Oh boy, I sure did not intend to suggest God's love was fueling evil intents or desires. And I agree it does mean the agape they had for the darkness means they were more "much more fond of doing evil than they are of God."

Also, I am not sure what you are referring to when you say "it doesn't say that at all." Maybe I should explain what I meant by "So, really, what is agape if you can use it to stay in darkness because you want to hide your evil?"

First, "if you can use it" was a poor choice of words. It would have been better for me to write "What is agape if it can be the motive for a person choosing darkness so that they can hide their evil?"

Does that seem to help?
 
This thread is actually the continuation of a rabbit trail a number of us headed down in a separate thread. It got interesting/enjoyable enough to think it is worth its own thread.

The pop evangelical culture I grew up in defined agape love as "God's type of love" and held it up as kind of a gold standard of the various forms of love. (Mind you, there are some very good and Biblical reasons for this.) But with time I am thinking this is an overly-simple definition.

In John 3:19, Jesus uses the word agape for describing the affinity that evil-acting persons have for the darkness. In this verse, the idea that agape is Godlike love falls way short of meaningful, much less useful.

John 3:19–20 (ESV) [Jesus speaking to Nicodemus]​
And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved [agape] the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.​

So, really, what is agape if you can use it to stay in darkness because you want to hide your evil?

Having been one of the participants in the "rabbit trail", the original question to me was regarding the above mentioned John 3:19. At the time, I was unaware of the use of agape in that kind of context, especially given the negative context. This got me thinking about love in other negative contexts, and the first one that came to mind was 2 Tim 3:2, where Paul writes, "People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy...", but Paul uses phileo, not agape in this instance.

I still think my thoughts regarding agape love being a love of total commitment and a holistic dedication to sacrifice for the benefit of the object of our love holds true. That is what God's love is for us, but it is also what our love for ourselves looks like. We will sacrifice anything to make sure we get what we think we want, as God sacrificed all he had to to benefit the object of his love. Agape is the same in both cases, but the object toward which the agape focused is the difference. Self-seeking agape is not true agape, but the commitment level and willingness to sacrifice for the sake of the object of its love is the same.

Doug
 
Oh boy, I sure did not intend to suggest God's love was fueling evil intents or desires. And I agree it does mean the agape they had for the darkness means they were more "much more fond of doing evil than they are of God."

Also, I am not sure what you are referring to when you say "it doesn't say that at all." Maybe I should explain what I meant by "So, really, what is agape if you can use it to stay in darkness because you want to hide your evil?"

First, "if you can use it" was a poor choice of words. It would have been better for me to write "What is agape if it can be the motive for a person choosing darkness so that they can hide their evil?"

Does that seem to help?

I don't understand how agape love can help them hide their evil? Do you mean people who will act very nice polite and helpful, but stab you in the back in a heartbeat? I have met those kind of people, but that they try that stuff and try to appear as a spotless lovable friend...are liars and untrustworthy, but it doesn't really have anything to do with agape love.

Agape love wont lie to you. Agape love is loyal and trustworthy, it can (and has) inspired one to defend another who is wrong. Now that may give an initial knee jerk but consider that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. So that is an extreme example of agape love.

A worldly example of it would be...A man's Wife does something wrong or in poor judgement and creates a bad situation. I would first defend her unto death, and then we have some things to talk about when we get home, lol

I think there's probably many church going people who keep up all the appearances but are secretly practicing evil. These are bad people. Even the one's who are not into deep darkness and are generally decent people, are ones who may simply out of habit or whatever gossip about people behind their back or be overly critical of people. (Those darn women, lol!) and that's not good. The Lord probably sees those people as just as evil or guilty as the worst criminals. Because the power of life & death are in the tongue. And Blessings & cursings should not be spoken out of the same mouth.

So in your example, those people are simply liars. They have no agape love within them. All darkness. Liars. How can a man love God and hate his neighbor? You can't.
 
I don't understand how agape love can help them hide their evil? Do you mean people who will act very nice polite and helpful, but stab you in the back in a heartbeat? I have met those kind of people, but that they try that stuff and try to appear as a spotless lovable friend...are liars and untrustworthy, but it doesn't really have anything to do with agape love.

Agape love wont lie to you. Agape love is loyal and trustworthy, it can (and has) inspired one to defend another who is wrong. Now that may give an initial knee jerk but consider that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. So that is an extreme example of agape love.

A worldly example of it would be...A man's Wife does something wrong or in poor judgement and creates a bad situation. I would first defend her unto death, and then we have some things to talk about when we get home, lol

I think there's probably many church going people who keep up all the appearances but are secretly practicing evil. These are bad people. Even the one's who are not into deep darkness and are generally decent people, are ones who may simply out of habit or whatever gossip about people behind their back or be overly critical of people. (Those darn women, lol!) and that's not good. The Lord probably sees those people as just as evil or guilty as the worst criminals. Because the power of life & death are in the tongue. And Blessings & cursings should not be spoken out of the same mouth.

So in your example, those people are simply liars. They have no agape love within them. All darkness. Liars. How can a man love God and hate his neighbor? You can't.
The question, then, is why did John use agape in John 3:19? If the term agape is only applicable in a 1 Corinthians 13 sense of meaning, why and how did John, under inspiration of the Spirit, say agape?

Doug
 
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