Am I the world's keeper?

[handy]

One of our members is facing a situation that he asked advice for, his dorm roommate wants private time alone on the weekends for sex. He has said no, but now the roommate is upset with him.

Some have advised that he stand strong and continue to let the roomie know that it's immoral and he won't allow it in his room. Others have suggested that he ask the college admin for a new roommate.

This is where I felt things got interesting and it touches on a theme that I have rather strong opinions about...

Lamplady, I hope you don't mind, but I'm including your thoughts here, because they really clarify what I'm getting to:

but we can't preach the gospel that is against sin then do nothing if it's in our power, to prevent it ...

He can leave if he wants of course but that will encourage his roommate. People sin we know that but if there is a way you can prevent it, (even if for a time), I think we should ...

I've titled this thread, "Am I the world's keeper?" because we know that we are, to a certain extent, our brother's keeper...meaning that we have a responsibility to go to a Christian brother or sister who is sinning and earnestly exhort them to repent and to turn away from their sin. The bible is very clear on this and in fact, the Scriptures tell us that if a brother insists upon remaining in sin and not repent, we are to excommunicate that brother and turn him out of the church. That doesn't happen a whole lot now days, but it is what the Scriptures tell us to do.

But, what of people who are not Christian...do we have a Godly responsibility to turn them from their sin...not in the sense that we share the gospel with them and urge them to repent and come to know the Lord, but rather that we tell them, on an individual level, "I'm not allowing you to have sex with your lover in what is your room too, because you're not married to him or her and it's immoral."

In my opinion, anyone who is not a Christian is in sin...and it doesn't particularly matter what shape the sin manifests itself in. When I'm dealing with a non-Christian, it really doesn't matter to me if the person is a prostitute or gay or an adulterer or just someone who regularly walks out of the grocery store without paying for the bag of dog food under the cart...their problem isn't any specific sin that they happen to be doing, but rather the fact that they are an unrepentant sinner who needs forgiveness. To me, such a person just needs the gospel lovingly shared with them. And, yes, at times the particular sins might enter into the discussion, but they shouldn't be the main focus of the conversation.

A text that I quote and I quote it so much I just about have it memorized is 1 Corinthians 5:9-13:

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28464">9</sup>I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28465">10</sup>I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28466">11</sup>But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28467">12</sup>For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28468">13</sup>But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.



(NASB)

From Bible Gateway

This passage seems clear to me that we Christians, while very much responsible for the sins of our brothers are not to set ourselves up as judges of those in the world. God will judge them, which is why we share the gospel so they can have opportunity to repent and turn to God.

Because sharing the gospel is our number one responsibility, I don't like to do anything that hinders my ability to share it...and I believe that when we set ourselves up as the morals police of the world, it does indeed hinder our ability to share the gospel. I believe that there are some folks who are so loving and so articulate in their speech, they can pull off denouncing a particular sin to an individual and yet let that person know how much God loves them. But for many more of us, denouncing particular sins just makes us come off like bigoted jerks and the individual be he gay, a drunk or a guy who cheats on his taxes just stops listening to how much God loves him. (I'd like to get some input from our non-Christian members on this if I may.)

Naturally, there are those who disagree with my POV on this and perhaps others who agree. But, in this polarized age in which the church is getting more and more vocal about the sins of the world and the world is pushing towards making judging personal behavior the only sin there is, perhaps this is a timely discussion to have.

Thoughts?

 

[theLords]

I completely agree with you Handy. That Scripture in 1 Corinthians 5 *NAILS IT*

We are not to judge the world. Don't we have better things to do?

Judging the world is why the Church is so hated in the West right now. The resentment is growing. We turn to the world and condemn them for their sin of homosexuality or adultery and then our pastors and church leaders are falling to the same exact sins! It is making the Church a laughing stock! We are bringing shame and scorn to our Beloved Bridegroom with this type of thinking!

I think every Christian needs to memorize this verse:

"Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever you sow you shall reap."

The Bible says "Do not judge others lest you be judged" right?

Put these two principles together and you see that when you sow sinful judgement, we reap sinful judgements upon ourselves.

If God has given us this knowledge, why then do we continue to walk in sin? We are not only hurting others but ourselves as well.

The Holy Spirit is the One who convicts the hearts of men. The Church needs to give this job back to the Holy Spirit instead of continuing to defame Christ.

(This is something I am pretty passionate about!)

 

[Igor]

I agree with you as well, Handy. I made a post in the other thread toward this before I knew you had already started this one. It was directed more for the op of that thread to read, but I'll copy some of it here as well to show my agreement;

So my question to true Christians here is this: If the OP successfully prevents his roommate from having gay sex in their room, does this mean his roommate is now saved from condemnation and separation from God at the day of judgment as a direct result of not committing this specific act?

No? Well, of course not. That would be salvation by works and it would take a lot more than just refraining from only one sin! (Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me’” (John 14:6).


The OP never said or hinted that his roommate was a Christian, so my assumption until he clarifies it will be that he is not a Christian. Any unforgiven sin against God is justification for condemnation. "The wages of sin is death"(Romans 6:23). The only forgiveness comes through accepting that Jesus was crucified as payment for our sins.

So, if the OP's roommate is not a Christian, preventing him from having gay sex means nothing. If the OP is a Christian (he never said he is, but I will assume for now that he is) his responsibility is to be a witness for Christ in a way that will teach his roommate what he needs to know to accept Christ as his savior from sin, and encourage him to do so.

The fact that gay sex occurs in the OP's room will not affect him spiritually if he has put his faith and trust in Jesus, as Christians are supposed to do. He may be personally repulsed by his roommate's sexual practices, but he knows that the risk of finding himself in this situation is what he voluntarily subjected himself to when he made his living arrangements.

Sure, the OP can make his moral ideals known to his roommate, but the important thing at this point is not to argue with his roommate over whether or not he can have sex with his SO, or even for us to argue over whether that sex (or any other sex) is moral or not. The important thing is for him to witness to his roommate (yes, and pray for him too, of course), and present the gospel in a way that will show him who Jesus is and how important it is to accept the sacrifice that God made for us. The rest of the issues he has in his life can be dealt with later, after he has accepted Christ.

If the roommate chooses to reject Christ, then there is no amount of forcing him to change his morals that will save him anyway, so there is no reason to waste time and energy worrying over it. The roommate needs to see the loving witness of a true Christian, not the judgmental legalism of a modern day pharisee. OP, please be a witness to him, not a judge!

 

[craigmn3]

If you want to save the world....you have to SAVE the world.

What is the point of getting a sinner to behave the way you want, if they are still lost?

Our goal is not modify behavior, but to save souls. Sin exists all around us, and we cannot stop that without the power of Christ in their life. So stand up for the truth and what is good....but don't expect the lion to lay down with the lamb, until the Lord is Lord of both of them.

 

[Strangelove]

Hi Handy...

Well...this ties in precisely with that discussion we were having about teachers.

And my answer is the same. If someones moral corruption, whatever their religion, is effecting your life or the life of you're family in a negative way...then you have a right to say something.

And this scripture:

<SUP>11</SUP>But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.

.....absolutely points to the fact that the writer is NOT talking about a true Christian...... and also a true Christian would never be morally reprehensable. So you have every right to remove the wicked man from amongst you.

Like I said before, if you have any other scripture that says we're not aloud to say anything to non-Christians regarding morals then I'd like to see it.

In your example.....I would share with the fornicater the fact that God frowns upon this act but not go any further than that. I would leave them too it unless it is seriously effecting you're life. But look for a new room-mate.

Doc.

 

[jasoncran]

not an easy balence as i deal with this alot when i'm on guard duty,many soldiers will watch porn with volume up!
that will tempt me.

 

[handy]

¹¹But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.

.....absolutely points to the fact that the writer is NOT talking about a true Christian...... and also a true Christian would never be morally reprehensable. So you have every right to remove the wicked man from amongst you.

Paul is speaking in verse 11 about those within the church who are, by their actions, showing that they are not a true Christian. Yes. As a matter of fact, Paul is wholly addressing the actions of those within the Church...

However, in these verses:
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28464">9</sup>I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28465">10</sup>I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28467">12</sup>For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-28468">13</sup>But those who are outside, God judges.

...Paul is bending over backwards to make it perfectly clear that he is speaking of those outside the church, of non-Christians. I truly don't see how it can be made any clearer than what Paul said. We are not to judge those in the world, God judges them.

Although this passage is perfectly clear, I can also point to the sermon on Mars Hill. This is a little long, but I urge you to read it through carefully...

Acts 17:22-33

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-27546">22</sup>So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-27547">23</sup>"For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD ' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-27548">24</sup>"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands;
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-27549">25</sup>nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-27550">26</sup>and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-27551">27</sup>that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-27552">28</sup>for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-27553">29</sup>"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-27554">30</sup>"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-27555">31</sup>because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-27556">32</sup>Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some began to sneer, but others said, "We shall hear you again concerning this."
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-27557">33</sup>So Paul went out of their midst.

NASB From Bible Gateway

Now think about who Paul was speaking to here. He was speaking to the common folk milling about the Areopagus, students (Athens was a college town), tradesmen, temple prostitutes, housewives, shopkeepers, other tourists. But, this is Athens, a place that had may have had as many as 30,000 idols. The place was steeped in idol worship and all that entails, as well as the just common type of sin that we see in any city. In verse 16 of this same chapter, Luke states that Paul's "spirit was provoked within him as he was beholding the city full of idols."

Now, read carefully how Paul preached to the Athenians. Do you see any railing about sin? Any rebuke about idol worship? Not at all, Paul speaks both respectfully and lovingly to them "Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in all respects..."
Think about the type of gods the Greeks served, capricious and downright mean at times, with all things fated. Paul comes along and starts to preach, not about a God angry at their immorality, but rather a Father, who desires to be found by the lost, willing to over look their ignorance.

Can anyone provide a passage of Scripture where Jesus or the apostles rebuked an unbeliever or non-Christian for their sin, rather than deal with their unbelief? There are plenty of places where the religious folks are rebuked, but I can't think of any where non-Christians are so rebuked. If there is one, by all means, post it and let's look at it.

 

[jasoncran]

handy on that line of thought
isnt our vote just doing that when we vote agianst sin?

 

[pjt]

I agree with you Handy that as Christians we have an obligation to exhort our brothers and sisters in Christ to turn from sin but with nonChristians they live by a different moral code and can not always appreciate the ways of God. In fact, they may despise the ways of God so to try and make them stop sinning is not only fruitless but can cause a lot of unnecessary hostility. I think the best thing is just to separate oneself from those who choose to revel and live in sin. The Proverbs talk all about fleeing from evil not grabbing it and trying to turn it into good but to "flee". However, if nonChristains want to talk about sin and God with us, we must open our hearts to them, listen, share, and try to show them the right way according to scriptures, but if they reject it, then that is their decision which we have to accept. We can continue praying for them, but we can`t stop what is in their hearts. With Jesus if people wanted to reject His teachings, He let them and moved on. He did not stick around and hound or beg them. He just shed the light on the Truth, left it for people to decide, if they believed, He embraced them but if they rejected, He wept but did not insist or force. HOWEVER, there was one time He did use force and that was in His Father`s House with the moneychangers. Were these true Believers that He forcefully drove out? I doubt it, but they professed to be Believers in God. I think the only time appropriate to forceably stop sin is when someone deliberately profanes the things of God. There is a line that has to be drawn. We are to turn the other cheek with worldly matters, but we are to defend the dignity and character of our holy God! We can not be lukewarm when it comes to God! He is our God and God deserves respect.

 

[handy]

Doc, here's a text I think applies.

Proverbs 9:7-8 "He who corrects a scoffer gets dishonor for himself, And he who reproves a wicked man gets insults for himself. Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you, Reprove a wise man and he will love you."

Pjt, you said, " We are to turn the other cheek with worldly matters, but we are to defend the dignity and character of our holy God!"

I agree wholeheartedly!

Jason, I'm not specifically talking about political measures, in this thread, more about when we engage people personally. I do agree that when Christians push for things like anti-gay measures or are vocally against same sex marriage amendments, then in a sense we are...however, and this is a big however, the difference is that we all, Christian and non-Christian alike, vote our conscience.

Frankly, I don't believe that the Church should be politically active in developing and pushing for things that legislates morality, for just this reason.

Take for instance the "marriage amendments". Christians are at the forefront in the political arena pushing for man/woman only marriage. The result: Huge protests against the church, and the gays and lesbians will still live with each other anyway sans marriage. The Church's ability to effectively witness God's love to them is muddied, and they will still live in sin. So, who really won anything?

If a "marriage amendment" shows up on my ballot, I'll vote my conscience, but I'm not going to push for it or against it in any particular way, other than just talk about it with others as I do any political issue.

 

[jasoncran]

ok thanks we have already voted an amendment here in florida for the definition of marriage.

i see your points but i cant do the moral twisting to support gay marriage and adoption.
as i have lived that way briefly. to me its like asking me to buy you a beer till you get drunk.
that being said lets avoid another gay rights debate

 

[handy]

I don't support gay marriage or adoption either, but I'm not going to waste my time protesting it, or writing up amendments against them.

But, yes, this isn't a "gay rights" thread, not by a long shot!

 

[pjt]

.

Proverbs 9:7-8 "He who corrects a scoffer gets dishonor for himself, And he who reproves a wicked man gets insults for himself. Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you, Reprove a wise man and he will love you."

.

Yes, and other Proverbs tell what to do when you run into the scoffer and wicked man and that is to "flee". Don`t waste your time fighting and arguing with them. "Don`t throw pearls to the swine". Just get away from these people lest you learn their ways and start thinking and acting like them as the Proverbs warn. Hold on to the things that are good and holy according to God. If a brother or sister falls, stop and try to help them up because they will at least respect and listen to God`s Word but the wicked man will only hate you for your efforts.

 

[Strangelove]

Doc, here's a text I think applies.

Proverbs 9:7-8 "He who corrects a scoffer gets dishonor for himself, And he who reproves a wicked man gets insults for himself. Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you, Reprove a wise man and he will love you."

I'll see you're Proverbs and I'll raise you a Timothy.

5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect
angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before
another, doing nothing by partiality.​

I think you'll find NT trumps OT in 5 card Bible stud poker. ;)

 

[Strangelove]

Yes, and other Proverbs tell what to do when you run into the scoffer and wicked man and that is to "flee". Don`t waste your time fighting and arguing with them. "Don`t throw pearls to the swine". Just get away from these people lest you learn their ways and start thinking and acting like them as the Proverbs warn. Hold on to the things that are good and holy according to God. If a brother or sister falls, stop and try to help them up because they will at least respect and listen to God`s Word but the wicked man will only hate you for your efforts.

I would say you are right UNLESS the wicked man is having a direct effect on you or you're families personal rights and living.

At that point you have the right to try and either talk to them or talk to some one else to get the wicked person out from among you.

 

[pjt]

I would say you are right UNLESS the wicked man is having a direct effect on you or you're families personal rights and living.

At that point you have the right to try and either talk to them or talk to some one else to get the wicked person out from among you.

I completely agree. I was answering the question from looking at an individual in personal, relishing sin. In the case given it was a case of fornication from a nonBeliever. That is a personal sin. But when that sin crosses into one`s family, church, and in certain cases business or community then people have a right and obligation to speak up.