America Was Founded On Christian Principles

[Lewis]

Yes it was founded on christian principles, many people will tell you otherwise' but it was. The early Americans did not always have it right. Because of slavery, burning people at the stake' and what not. But this was a Christian nation.

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/heritage.html

 

[destiny]

Yes it was founded on christian principles, many people will tell you otherwise' but it was. The early Americans did not always have it right. Because of slavery, burning people at the stake' and what not. But this was a Christian nation.

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/heritage.html

Yes, I believe this is true ... Americas roots are in christianity, she was established by God as a place of freedom from religious oppression.
Of course man screwed that up for awhile and tried to mandate his own brand of christianity. Been messing up Gods best since the beginning of time, this will be the case until Jesus returns.

 

[Poke]

Yes it was founded on christian principles, many people will tell you otherwise' but it was. The early Americans did not always have it right. Because of slavery, burning people at the stake' and what not. But this was a Christian nation.

The founders of this country pretty much had eveything right. Perhaps their greatest failure was not crafting a nation that could remain free for more than a couple of centuries. But, this might not be possible.

Those Christian priciples brought an end to slavery. "All men are created equal." The principle of freedom manifest in the Constitution created an atmosphere where slavery's days were numbered.

The Founding Fathers couldn't simply decree that slavery end when the Constitution was signed. The slave states would not have signed on and the task of bringing slavery to and end would have been more difficult. About 1860, the slave states themselves abolished the importation of slaves.

 

[Fishy]

America was founded on the principle of religious freedom, yet those who don't believe are looked down upon. The business of "In God We Trust", and "One Nation Under God" were added in the 1950's. It was seen as a way to distinguish America from the communists of Russia during the Cold War.

Calling ourselves a christian nation pretty much negates the beliefs our nation was founded on. Freedom. Freedom of religion, freedom from persecution, freedom of choice.

Here is my question for you "Christian Americans". Will you ban me for my anti-christian beliefs, or allow me to speak my mind in a mature and intelligent manner?

 

[Lewis]

Sorry folks for the long post, because I don't like doing a long post, but I just had to here. I posted this here in the fall of 2005' but I see that it needed to be posted again. And if you do read on' check out the issue of Thomas Jefferson' and the Separation Of Church And State. Thank you.

The Myth of
the Separation of Church and State

Anytime religion is mentioned within the confines of government today people cry, "Separation of Church and State". Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced. However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment. The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national religion. This was very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in England by the state established church. Jefferson made it clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men how to worship God. Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights. Jefferson wrote:

I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. (1)

The reason Jefferson choose the expression "separation of church and state" was because he was addressing a Baptist congregation; a denomination of which he was not a member. Jefferson wanted to remove all fears that the state would make dictates to the church. He was establishing common ground with the Baptists by borrowing the words of Roger Williams, one of the Baptist's own prominent preachers. Williams had said:

When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness, as at this day. And that there fore if He will eer please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world...(2)

The "wall" was understood as one-directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values.

The American people knew what would happen if the State established the Church like in England. Even though it was not recent history to them, they knew that England went so far as forbidding worship in private homes and sponsoring all church activities and keeping people under strict dictates. They were forced to go to the state established church and do things that were contrary to their conscience. No other churches were allowed, and mandatory attendance of the established church was compelled under the Conventicle Act of 1665. Failure to comply would result in imprisonment and torture. The people did not want freedom from religion, but freedom of religion. The only real reason to separate the church from the state would be to instill a new morality and establish a new system of beliefs. Our founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to stand it must have a solid foundation; the Bible was the source of this foundation. They believed that God's ways were much higher than Man's ways and held firmly that the Bible was the absolute standard of truth and used the Bible as a source to form our government.

There is no such thing as a pluralistic society. There will always be one dominant view, otherwise it will be in transition from one belief system to another. Therefore, to say Biblical principles should not be allowed in government and school is to either be ignorant of the historic intent of the founding fathers, or blatantly bigoted against Christianity.

Each form of government has a guiding principle: monarchy in which the guiding principle is honor; aristocracy in which the guiding principle is moderation; republican democracy in which the guiding principle is virtue; despotism in which the guiding principle is fear. Without people of the United States upholding good moral conduct, society soon degenerates into a corrupt system where people misuse the authority of government to obtain what they want at the expense of others. The U.S. Constitution is the form of our government, but the power is in the virtue of the people. The virtue desired of the people is shown in the Bible. This is why Biblical morality was taught in public schools until the early 1960's. Government officials were required to declare their belief in God even to be allowed to hold a public office until a case in the U.S. Supreme Court called Torcaso v. Watkins (Oct. 1960). God was seen as the author of natural law and morality. If one did not believe in God one could not operate from a proper moral base. And by not having a foundation from which to work, one would destroy the community. The two primary places where morality is taught are the family and the church. The church was allowed to influence the government in righteousness an d justice so that virtue would be upheld. Not allowing the church to influence the state is detrimental to the country and destroys our foundation of righteousness and justice. It is absolutely necessary for the church to influence the state in virtue because without virtue our government will crumble -- the representatives will look after their own good instead of the country's.

Government was never meant to be our master as in a ruthless monarchy or dictatorship. Instead, it was to be our servant. The founding fathers believed that the people have full power to govern themselves and that people chose to give up some of their rights for the general good and the protection of rights. Each person should be self-governed and this is why virtue is so important. Government was meant to serve the people by protecting their liberty and rights, not serve by an enormous amount of social programs. The authors of the Constitution wanted the government to have as little power as possible so that if authority was misused it would not cause as much damage. Yet they wanted government to have enough authority to protect the rights of the people. The worldview at the time of the founding of our government was a view held by the Bible: that Man's heart is corrupt and if the opportunity to advance oneself at the expense of another arose, more often than not, we would choose to do so. They firmly believed this and that's why an enormous effort to set up checks and balances took place. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. They wanted to make certain that no man could take away rights given by God. They also did not set up the government as a true democracy, because they believed, as mentioned earlier, Man tends towards wickedness. Just because the majority wants something does not mean that it should be granted, because the majority could easily err. Government was not to be run by whatever the majority wanted but instead by principle, specifically the principles of the Bible.

Our U.S. Constitution was founded on Biblical principles and it was the intention of the authors for this to be a Christian nation. The Constitution had 55 people work upon it, of which 52 were evangelical Christians.(3) We can go back in history and look at what the founding fathers wrote to know where they were getting their ideas. This is exactly what two professors did. Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman reviewed an estimated 15,000 items with explicit political content printed between 1760 and 1805 and from these items they identified 3,154 references to other sources. The source they most often quoted was the Bible, accounting for 34% of all citations. Sixty percent of all quotes came from men who used the Bible to form their conclusions. That means that 94% of all quotes by the founding fathers were based on the Bible. The founding fathers took ideas from the Bible and incorporated them into our government. If it was their intention to separate the state and church they would never have taken principles from the Bible and put them into our government. An example of an idea taken from the Bible and then incorporated into our government is found in Isaiah 33:22 which says, "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king..." The founding fathers took this scripture and made three major branches in our government: judicial, legislative, and executive. As mentioned earlier, the founding fathers strongly believed that Man was by nature corrupt and therefore it was necessary to separate the powers of the government. For instance, the President has the power to execute laws but not make them, and Congress has the power to make laws but not to judge the people. The simple principle of checks and balances came from the Bible to protect people from tyranny. The President of the United States is free to influence Congress, although he can not exercise authority over it because they are separated. Since this is true, why should the church not be allowed to influence the state? People have read too much into the phrase "separation of church and state", which is to be a separation of civil authority from ecclesiastical authority, not moral values. Congress has passed laws that it is illegal to murder and steal, which is the legislation of morality. These standards of morality are found in the Bible. Should we remove them from law because the church should be separated from the state?

Our founding fathers who formed the government also formed the educational system of the day. John Witherspoon did not attend the Constitutional Convention although he was President of New Jersey College in 1768 (known as Princeton since 1896) and a signer of the Declaration of Independence. His influence on the Constitution was far ranging in that he taught nine of fifty-five original delegates. He fought firmly for religious freedom and said, "God grant that in America true religion and civil liberty may be inseparable and that unjust attempts to destroy the one may in the issue tend to the support and establishment of both."(4)

In October 1961 the Supreme Court of the United States removed prayer from schools in a case called Engel v. Vitale. The case said that because the U.S. Constitution prohibits any law respecting an establishment of religion officials of public schools may not compose public prayer even if the prayer is denominationally neutral, and that pupils may choose to remain silent or be excused while the prayer is being recited. For 185 years prayer was allowed in public and the Constitutional Convention itself was opened with prayer. If the founding fathers didn't want prayer in government why did they pray publicly in official meetings? It is sometimes said that it is permissible to pray in school as long as it is silent. Although, "In Omaha, Nebraska, 10-year old James Gierke was prohibited from reading his Bible silently during free time... the boy was forbidden by his teacher to open his Bible at school and was told doing so was against the law."(4) The U.S. Supreme Court with no precedent in any court history said prayer will be removed from school. Yet the Supreme Court in January, 1844 in a case named Vidal v. Girard's Executors, a school was to be built in which no ecclesiastic, missionary, or minister of any sect whatsoever was to be allowed to even step on the property of the school. They argued over whether a layman could teach or not, but they agreed that, "...there is an obligation to teach what the Bible alone can teach, viz. a pure system of morality." This has been the precedent throughout 185 years. Although this case is from 1844, it illustrates the point. The prayer in question was not even lengthy or denominationally geared. It was this: "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country." What price have we paid by removing this simple acknowledgment of God's protecting hand in our lives? Birth rates for unwed girls from 15-19; sexually transmitted diseases among 10-14 year olds; pre-marital sex increased; violent crime; adolescent homicide have all gone up considerably from 1961 to the 1990's -- even after taking into account population growth. The Bible, before 1961, was used extensively in curriculum. After the Bible was removed, scholastic aptitude test scores dropped considerably.

There is no such thing as a pluralistic society; there will always be one dominant view. Someone's morality is going to be taught -- but whose? Secular Humanism is a religion that teaches that through Man's ability we will reach universal peace and unity and make heaven on earth. They promote a way of life that systematically excludes God and all religion in the traditional sense. That Man is the highest point to which nature has evolved, and he can rely on only himself and that the universe was not created, but instead is self-existing. They believe that Man has the potential to be good in and of himself. All of this of course is in direct conflict with not only the teachings of the Bible but even the lessons of history. In June 1961 in a case called Torcaso v. Watkins, the U.S. Supreme Court stated, "Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others." The Supreme Court declared Secular Humanism to be a religion. The American Humanist Association certifies counselors who enjoy the same legal status as ordained ministers. Since the Supreme Court has said that Secular Humanism is a religion, why is it being allowed to be taught in schools? The removal of public prayer of those who wish to participate is, in effect, establishing the religion of Humanism over Christianity. This is exactly what our founding fathers tried to stop from happening with the first amendment.

1. Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Writings, Merrill D. Peterson, ed. (NY: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), p. 510, January 1, 1802.

2. John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution (MI: Baker Book House, 1987), p. 243.

3. M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution (Marlborough, N.H.: Plymouth Rock Foundation, 1982), p. 4-5.

4. John Witherspoon, "Sermon on the Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men" May 17, 1776; quoted and Cited by Collins, President Witherspoon, I:197-98.

http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

 

[Poke]

Calling ourselves a christian nation pretty much negates the beliefs our nation was founded on. Freedom. Freedom of religion, freedom from persecution, freedom of choice.

Greets, Fishy. How does calling ourselves a Christian nation negate the belief of freedom? Christianity is the most pro-freedom religion there is. An Islamic government greatly oppresses every religion accept Islam. An Atheistic government oppresses all deistic faiths. A jewish government doesn't even consider non-jews to be human.

Our freedom is in decline because our Christianity is in decline.

 

[Quath]

To be founded on Christian principles, you need to specify what these are that are different from all the other countries around the world. For example, every country has a law againt murder. So being against murder is not a Christian only principle.

There seems to be principles that goes against Christianity in America. For example, God supports monarchies, not democracies. So founding a democracy seems to go against the religion. Also allowing people to have separate religions goes against places in the Bible like Deuteronomy 13:13-19.

But slavery (Ephesians 6:5) and denying women's sufferage (1 Corinthians 14:33-35) does seem to be parts of the Bible.

But one of the best documents that showed the founder's beliefs about America being a Christian nation, it can be found in the Treaty of Tripoli which states:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion

It was signed under John Adams and ratified by the senate and posted in the newspaper.

I think the whole "Christian Nation" is historical revisionism so people can feel justified pushing Christian beliefs upon American citizens.

 

[moniker]

Calling ourselves a christian nation pretty much negates the beliefs our nation was founded on. Freedom. Freedom of religion, freedom from persecution, freedom of choice.

Greets, Fishy. How does calling ourselves a Christian nation negate the belief of freedom? Christianity is the most pro-freedom religion there is. An Islamic government greatly oppresses every religion accept Islam. An Atheistic government oppresses all deistic faiths. A jewish government doesn't even consider non-jews to be human.

Our freedom is in decline because our Christianity is in decline.

You forgot one, secular. It is different from athiestic.

 

[Poke]

You forgot one, secular. It is different from athiestic.

"Secular" really isn't an option. It's like if I say name a color, and you say "three." It's like the public schools, they're supposedly secular, but they're really atheist. Religious speech is oppressed and students are indoctrinated with an atheistic perspective.

 

[Fishy]

The US Constitution makes no inclusive mention of religion. It is a secular document, and more information regarding the subject can be found here.

 

[Lewis]

The US Constitution makes no inclusive mention of religion. It is a secular document, and more information regarding the subject can be found here.

You do did not read my post up there did you ? You know' the long one ?

 

[moniker]

You forgot one, secular. It is different from athiestic.

"Secular" really isn't an option. It's like if I say name a color, and you say "three."

Not it's more of you saying name a color on the wheel and me replying white (or black, depending on how you want to take it). On the issue of God's existence or absence and religious dogma, secularism simply ignores it all; and as far as grasping the 3 R's, etc., well, you really don't need God to be able to explain what a pronoun is.

 

[Solo]

The Fifty States' Constitutions

Somewhere along the way, the Federal Courts and the Supreme Court have misinterpreted the US Constitution. How could all fifty States be wrong?

THIS IS VERY INTERESTING! Be sure to read the last two paragraphs.

America's founders did not intend for there to be a separation of God and state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their state constitutions:

Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution.

Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land.

Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom.

Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe.

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy.

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.

Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution...

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance .. establish this Constitution.

Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings.

Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of government.

Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings establish this Constitution.

Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth are grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of_the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... and imploring His aid and direction.

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe .... in the course of His Providence, an opportunity and devoutly imploring His direction ..

Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom establish this Constitution.

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings:

Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness ... establish this Constitution ....

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution .

Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .. establish this Constitution.

Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution .

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty

New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.

North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those

North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...
Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty ... establish this ..

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences..

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of he State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties ..

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...

Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.

Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution.

Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to ... enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man ..

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator . can be directed only by Reason ... and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other.

Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ..

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility

Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties .. establish this Constitution.

After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state constitutions, one is faced with the prospect that maybe, just maybe, the ACLU and the out-of-control federal courts are wrong!

"Those people who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." - William Penn

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

IF all of the State Constitutions were declared invalid,
would the United States then be illegal?
and declared non-existent?

 

[Poke]

The US Constitution makes no inclusive mention of religion. It is a secular document, and more information regarding the subject can be found here.

The Founding Fathers were Christians and Deists. But, even the Deists were practically Christian. For example, Deist Thomas Jefferson produced a condensed Bible for the Indians and he called himself a "true Christian" because of his values. There were no Atheists, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, or Witches among the Founding Fathers. Given that the Constitution is the exlusive fruit of Christians and "Christian" Deists, the Constitution is based on Christian principles.

As I explained in a previous message, "secular" isn't an option.

 

[Quath]

The Fifty States' Constitutions

Somewhere along the way, the Federal Courts and the Supreme Court have misinterpreted the US Constitution. How could all fifty States be wrong?

Isn't it interesting that the US Constitution does not start like any of the state constitutions? I think you are just proving the point that the constitutions were commonly written to call on God, but the law of the US is based on a document that specifically chose not to do this. I think this says a huge amount for the intentions of the founders.

Now what do you all have to say about that ?

It seemed to be a lot of speculation and didn't address any of its common criticisms. It also seems to beg a lot of logic like to assume that when Jefferson talks about a wall, he didn't mean a wall, but a single directional door. I see no reason why people would see a wall as not a wall.

The history seems to support the idea that the Federal Government would be separate from religion because the states were not. However, when the 14th amendment passed, the states had to follow the same rules as the federal. The separation of church and state seems very clear when history is not revised to account for it.

Given that the Constitution is the exlusive fruit of Christians and "Christian" Deists, the Constitution is based on Christian principles.

That is like saying that any book written by a Christian is a Christian book. Or any government set up by Christians is a Christian government. The problem is that the Nazi government was set up by Christians. If you are willing to include people who denounced Christ's divinity as Christians, then how can you exclude people that wholly believed in Christ's divinity (the Nazis)?

If you can't name the Christian principles, then I assume there are none.

 

[Solo]

The Fifty States' Constitutions

Somewhere along the way, the Federal Courts and the Supreme Court have misinterpreted the US Constitution. How could all fifty States be wrong?

Isn't it interesting that the US Constitution does not start like any of the state constitutions? I think you are just proving the point that the constitutions were commonly written to call on God, but the law of the US is based on a document that specifically chose not to do this. I think this says a huge amount for the intentions of the founders.

Now what do you all have to say about that ?

It seemed to be a lot of speculation and didn't address any of its common criticisms. It also seems to beg a lot of logic like to assume that when Jefferson talks about a wall, he didn't mean a wall, but a single directional door. I see no reason why people would see a wall as not a wall.

The history seems to support the idea that the Federal Government would be separate from religion because the states were not. However, when the 14th amendment passed, the states had to follow the same rules as the federal. The separation of church and state seems very clear when history is not revised to account for it.

Given that the Constitution is the exlusive fruit of Christians and "Christian" Deists, the Constitution is based on Christian principles.

That is like saying that any book written by a Christian is a Christian book. Or any government set up by Christians is a Christian government. The problem is that the Nazi government was set up by Christians. If you are willing to include people who denounced Christ's divinity as Christians, then how can you exclude people that wholly believed in Christ's divinity (the Nazis)?

If you can't name the Christian principles, then I assume there are none.

At least all of the states recognized God and therefore were blessed until the atheists who follow satan were organized to change the standards of this nation. Anyone 50 years old or older have seen the changes in this nation, and God will allow the ignorance to prevail until Jesus returns. At that time ALL knees will bow and ALL tongues confess that Jesus is Lord; even the ones on their way to everlasting damnation.

PS Ole Madeline believes in God now! All of the poor atheists of this country are bond by the sin of pride and refuse to see the truth that God has laid out before them; therefore they remain children of the devil.

 

[Voyageur]

The US Constitution makes no inclusive mention of religion. It is a secular document, and more information regarding the subject can be found here.

You do did not read my post up there did you ? You know' the long one ?

If you read up on the Founding Fathers, you'll notice that many of them, including Jefferson, were Deists.

 

[Quath]

At least all of the states recognized God and therefore were blessed until the atheists who follow satan were organized to change the standards of this nation.

I guess it does not matter to you that atheists do not believe in Satan?

Anyone 50 years old or older have seen the changes in this nation, and God will allow the ignorance to prevail until Jesus returns.

Do you mean the people that remember when "In God we trust" was not the motto and "under God" was not in the pledge?

PS Ole Madeline believes in God now! All of the poor atheists of this country are bond by the sin of pride and refuse to see the truth that God has laid out before them; therefore they remain children of the devil.

Maybe you should know what the founding fathers also said about Christianity. You may realize that the United States did not always look upon Christianity as the best religion:

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
-- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams (April 11, 1823)

It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.
-- Benjamin Franklin, quoted from Victor J Stenger

And so on. You can find positive quotes by these same people, but they are usually public speeches that Christians attended. However, in their personal beliefs, they had little to no respect for Christianity except as a way for the commom masses to try to find morality.

 

[Solo]

At least all of the states recognized God and therefore were blessed until the atheists who follow satan were organized to change the standards of this nation.

I guess it does not matter to you that atheists do not believe in Satan?

Anyone 50 years old or older have seen the changes in this nation, and God will allow the ignorance to prevail until Jesus returns.

Do you mean the people that remember when "In God we trust" was not the motto and "under God" was not in the pledge?

[quote:f8333]PS Ole Madeline believes in God now! All of the poor atheists of this country are bond by the sin of pride and refuse to see the truth that God has laid out before them; therefore they remain children of the devil.

Maybe you should know what the founding fathers also said about Christianity. You may realize that the United States did not always look upon Christianity as the best religion:

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
-- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams (April 11, 1823)

It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.
-- Thomas Paine, as quoted by Joseph Lewis in Inspiration and Wisdom from the Writings of Thomas Paine

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies.
-- Benjamin Franklin, quoted from Victor J Stenger

And so on. You can find positive quotes by these same people, but they are usually public speeches that Christians attended. However, in their personal beliefs, they had little to no respect for Christianity except as a way for the commom masses to try to find morality.[/quote:f8333]
As are your views of Almighty God and his creation, so too are your views on the founding of this great land that God has blessed, the United States of America. It is obvious to me that your blinders remain on. Good day.

 

[moniker]

As I explained in a previous message, "secular" isn't an option.

No you didn't. You offered up a false analogy and then went into a mini tirade about the school system. That was about it. If you want to have a discussion about how secularism is not an applicable philosophy for our government to follow it would be an interesting thread I'd like to participate in.