America's Founding

[handy]

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm glad that the founding father's fought the fight and America is the land of the free.

I guess I'm more curious as to when and how we can make the determination as to when it's time to buck the governmental control. With my excellent 20/20 hindsight, I would surmise that the founding father's were acting within God's will for God blessed the new nation and has continued to do so up until, I don't know, about 40 or 50 years ago.

Contrast the Revolutionary War with the Civil War and one can see how God blessed Washington, Jefferson, Franklin et. al. and their endeavors prospered, but He did not bless Jefferson Davis, Alexander Stevens and Robert E Lee in their war of secession. And the principles behind the reasons for both the Patriots and the South rebelling against governmental authority are very similar. Also, in the matter of all involved, each governing body and each rebel force were all manned by Christians.

 

[Solo]

When the authority that you are under dictates that you do something that is sin according to Scripture, do you sin after the authority of your government, or do you refuse to sin after the authority of God Almighty?

You follow God, not men. BUT you still must submit to the authority for whatever punishment they will give out. Rebellion is not a NT teaching regardless of how romantic it may be.

So do you follow the government's authority or God's authority?

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Fine, have it your way. Let your government do whatever they want with you, like sheep being led to the slaughter.

I'm just glad the early church leaders and ECFs didn't feel the same way and went "against the grain", even when it meant they may die for their convictions. Same thing with the Reformers and ones just prior to them. :amen

See, you did provide some Scripture:

Rom 8:35 –Rom 8:39 NKJV
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:
      “For Your sake we are killed all day long;
      We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.â€Â
Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Great post!

I think this segment of scripture justifies the freedom to choose one's religion and be true to God regardless of what your government dictates or tries to push. Nothing shall separate us. Not government enforced religion or doctrine. Not humanism, naturalism, moral relativism, etc.

The answer does not lie in our government trying to save us from ourselves but in our government getting out of our way so we can embrace God and Christ.
:amen

 

[Aero_Hudson]

When the authority that you are under dictates that you do something that is sin according to Scripture, do you sin after the authority of your government, or do you refuse to sin after the authority of God Almighty?

You follow God, not men. BUT you still must submit to the authority for whatever punishment they will give out. Rebellion is not a NT teaching regardless of how romantic it may be.

So do you follow the government's authority or God's authority?

I would think if you live in a community / society and are a citizen of said nation you have a choice. Either abide by their rules and laws and live within that society or do not abide by their rules and laws and be taken out of society through incarceration or deportment.

The best nation to live in is the nation that allows their citizens to worship as they will. In this case our worship does not contradict a nation state's laws and we can be true to our fellow citizens and to God and Christ.

 

[Vic C.]

See, you did provide some Scripture:

LOL, look at my siggy, I DO wear that verse like a badge.

I didn't actually quote a whole verse because I'm giving my opinions and not trying to give a sermon. I didn't feel I needed to justify my opinions with simple proof texting. Anyone can quote scripture. ;) That is providing we have the "freedom" to do so. :amen

 

[keekl]

See, you did provide some Scripture:

LOL, look at my siggy, I DO wear that verse like a badge.

I didn't actually quote a whole verse because I'm giving my opinions and not trying to give a sermon. I didn't feel I needed to justify my opinions with simple proof texting. Anyone can quote scripture. ;) That is providing we have the "freedom" to do so. :amen

You don't need some gov't provided "freedom" to have liberty in Christ~we're citizens of the Kingdom of God serving as His ambassadors to whatever nation we reside. Regardless of whatever that nation's laws may be our freedom is not bound by their rules. And in living by that we may well perish under that nation's sword in our service to Christ.

Now I understand there is another POV that says real Christians should work toward gaining control and power to advance the Kingdom~~history has shown that hasn't worked out very well.

 

[Vic C.]

You don't need some gov't provided "freedom" to have liberty in Christ~we're citizens of the Kingdom of God serving as His ambassadors to whatever nation we reside. Regardless of whatever that nation's laws may be our freedom is not bound by their rules. And in living by that we may well perish under that nation's sword in our service to Christ.

Agreed, but seeing I do have choices afforded to me by my country, I choose to see they are preserved. I either fight or flee but will never submit and lose my freedom to openly worship my Lord.

Now I understand there is another POV that says real Christians should work toward gaining control and power to advance the Kingdom~~history has shown that hasn't worked out very well.

Since I'm not into Dominion Theology, I agree. I don't wish to gain power, I just choose to keep the power the people of the US already have.

I know I am free in Christ to worship the Lord anytime, anywhere, but do I want to see my country put me in a position of possibly being persecuted? The whole purpose of the Revolution and the bloodshed of those who died for this freedom would be all for nil. I might as well move to a country that already persecutes believers. :shocked!

 

[Solo]

I would think if you live in a community / society and are a citizen of said nation you have a choice. Either abide by their rules and laws and live within that society or do not abide by their rules and laws and be taken out of society through incarceration or deportment.

The best nation to live in is the nation that allows their citizens to worship as they will. In this case our worship does not contradict a nation state's laws and we can be true to our fellow citizens and to God and Christ.

The Bible explicitly states that we are to live by God's laws not man's laws when the two contradict.

The laws of this nation were based on Judeo/Christian ethics and morality until the progressive, socialist, antichristian, humanist spirit influenced unbelievers to "recreate" America in their own fashion apart from God's glorious way of life. Because we were lax in keeping the commandments of God in our society, we have fallen to the lowest point in history. Soon the One World Government will mandate your obedience, and you will joyfully go along because of your false theology.

I know from past debates with you that you will not answer my questions, but I will ask this one anyway:

• 
  Why has your nation consistently and intentionally removed Christianity from the public arena after its establishment in American society from the beginning?

You have been blinded to the truth and have swallowed the lie of humanism. May God open your eyes before it is too late. Do not follow the unknowing into the ditch by worshipping the god of progressive liberalism.

 

[destiny]

Do not follow the unknowing into the ditch by worshipping the god of progressive liberalism.

We also need to call "liberalsim" what it is and that would be apostasy when making claims to God, complete with it's apostate followers. Of course there's always deceived sheeple in the mix.

 

[Solo]

There is a great ignorance of the history of the founding of the United States, and its Constitution. The recent generation have been taught from a perspective founded by liberal theologians in the current public education institution who detest the truth of God's Word, and enjoy dumbing down the children of America. Their stand is one of whatever is good for the all is good for you, and progressive humanistic goals are of paramount importance. I have yet to meet an individual of the liberal school of thought who would have stood for God during the American Revolution to establish the freedoms that this nation was founded upon. Many "goofy" so-called Christians think that they can sit in their high places and be comfortable in their walk with God as long as they do not ruffle the feathers of society. They are ignoring vast portions of Scripture in order to sit and have their ears tickled by false teachers.

Be not deceived, God is not mocked; whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap!

May God have mercy on all who have swallowed and enjoy the humanistic philosophies that have invaded the United States of America.

 

[Solo]

Do not follow the unknowing into the ditch by worshipping the god of progressive liberalism.

We also need to call "liberalsim" what it is and that would be apostasy when making claims to God, complete with it's apostate followers. Of course there's always deceived sheeple in the mix.

Yes. Exactly Correct!

 

[destiny]

I appreciate you setting the record straight on Americas founding, Solo. Not many will take this on anymore, at least not since it became a part of the atheist agenda years ago.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

I would think if you live in a community / society and are a citizen of said nation you have a choice. Either abide by their rules and laws and live within that society or do not abide by their rules and laws and be taken out of society through incarceration or deportment.

The best nation to live in is the nation that allows their citizens to worship as they will. In this case our worship does not contradict a nation state's laws and we can be true to our fellow citizens and to God and Christ.

The Bible explicitly states that we are to live by God's laws not man's laws when the two contradict.

The laws of this nation were based on Judeo/Christian ethics and morality until the progressive, socialist, antichristian, humanist spirit influenced unbelievers to "recreate" America in their own fashion apart from God's glorious way of life. Because we were lax in keeping the commandments of God in our society, we have fallen to the lowest point in history. Soon the One World Government will mandate your obedience, and you will joyfully go along because of your false theology.

I know from past debates with you that you will not answer my questions, but I will ask this one anyway:

• 
  Why has your nation consistently and intentionally removed Christianity from the public arena after its establishment in American society from the beginning?

You have been blinded to the truth and have swallowed the lie of humanism. May God open your eyes before it is too late. Do not follow the unknowing into the ditch by worshipping the god of progressive liberalism.

You misunderstand me Solo. A couple of points...

- At the end of the day, you do have a choice to make. Either abide by society's rules or do not. As long as you are willing to accept the consequences of either choice than you can square with that.

- From my standpoint, I am glad that I live in a country where I do not have to make decisions that are either / or oriented. In other words, the laws my country has in place do not contradict with my committment to God and Christ. The laws we have in the US are to ensure the safety and well being of others and I cannot think of one law where I have had to make a moral choice to follow or not based on my religious beliefs. Not all countries can say this. Help me understand how our laws have suddenly changed to some humanistic approach. The Constitution and teh Bill of Rights are still in place and are the foundation of our society in the secular sense.

- I will answer your question. I disagree that Christianity has been taken out of the public arena and I also disagree that Christianity was "established" by our government (see previous quotes from our founding fathers). When was the last time our government stopped society or individual citizens from worshipping their God or particular doctrine? When was the last time our government directly or indirectly threatened our ability to live a life by God's will? When was the last time my government told me I could not believe in God or Christ?

- I do not worship the God of progessive liberalism. I do not prescribe to Humanism. I do feel that our government should not directly condone an official stance on religion nor should they deter citizens from believing in what they want to believe. We are free people as God intended. Whether we, as Christians, like it or not, all people need to be free to make their own decisions whether they come to God or not. I do not want anyone dictating to me what I should believe. I am a free man!

Hopefully this answers your questions. I think I have done so quite clearly.

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Do not follow the unknowing into the ditch by worshipping the god of progressive liberalism.

We also need to call "liberalsim" what it is and that would be apostasy when making claims to God, complete with it's apostate followers. Of course there's always deceived sheeple in the mix.

If this is the definition of liberalism that you are referring to, help me understand what makes this a bad thing.

Liberalism is a broad class of political philosophies that considers individual liberty and equality to be the most important political goals. Liberalism emphasizes individual rights and equality of opportunity. Within liberalism, there are various streams of thought which compete over the use of the term "liberal" and may propose very different policies, but they are generally united by their support for political liberalism, which encompasses support for: freedom of thought and speech, limitations on the power of governments, the rule of law, an individual's right to private property, and a transparent system of government All liberals, as well as some adherents of other political ideologies, support some variant of the form of government known as liberal democracy, with open and fair elections, where all citizens have equal rights by law.

I appreciate you setting the record straight on Americas founding, Solo. Not many will take this on anymore, at least not since it became a part of the atheist agenda years ago.

I am wondering if you or Solo have read the many quotes I have posted from some of our founding fathers on their belief in a separation of church and state and why this is so important to a person's freedom to worship in the way they feel appropriate. Would you want your government to dictate how you worship especially if it was in direct contrast to what you believe now? I think these quotes are direct contention with Solo's "setting the record straight".

 

[Aero_Hudson]

There is a great ignorance of the history of the founding of the United States, and its Constitution. The recent generation have been taught from a perspective founded by liberal theologians in the current public education institution who detest the truth of God's Word, and enjoy dumbing down the children of America. Their stand is one of whatever is good for the all is good for you, and progressive humanistic goals are of paramount importance. I have yet to meet an individual of the liberal school of thought who would have stood for God during the American Revolution to establish the freedoms that this nation was founded upon. Many "goofy" so-called Christians think that they can sit in their high places and be comfortable in their walk with God as long as they do not ruffle the feathers of society. They are ignoring vast portions of Scripture in order to sit and have their ears tickled by false teachers.

Be not deceived, God is not mocked; whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap!

May God have mercy on all who have swallowed and enjoy the humanistic philosophies that have invaded the United States of America.

I really think you are reaching here and twisting the issue to conform to your own feelings on the role of government. My take is not that people should be left alone to do what they will without anyone trying to influence them to find God. My take is that is not our government's job. It is inherently dangerous to charge them with this task. Instead, outreach from believers and churches to non believers is the way to go. Not government sponsored but spearheaded by true believers that can spread God's word. Why would I want a politician or governing body telling me what to do when I can have caring followers of Christ help me find my way voluntarily?

 

[destiny]

America has (in the past) always held a biblical world view that reflected "we the people", this doesn't mean forced religion on anyone, as actions have attested to through the years.
It meant honoring God as our soverign head as a nation, IE..."in God we trust".

Other religions have always been freely practiced here and have respected our biblical views.

The meaning of liberalism was changed by the apostate change agents, just as what I've written above was changed by those same snakes. Surely you can see that, Areo_Hudson.

 

[Solo]

Aero,

You are uninformed of what God has established in our nation's Constitution and Bill of Rights for the freedom to worship Him in whatever Christian denomination that you choose without coercion from the government.

This nation was not founded on Islam principals, or atheistic principals, or Hindu principals, or Buddhist principals, or etc. etc. etc. This nation was founded upon the principals set forth in the Scriptures, the Word of God.

This nations "public" schools were started by the Christian churches across the country. They have been infiltrated by the liberal, antichristian spirit, and prayer and Bible reading were removed in my lifetime. I remember praying in school before it was banned in 1962. The atheist Madeline Murray O'Hare was key in removing God from the public school system after it had been a part of our education system for almost 200 years prior.

This nation was established upon the right of all people to worship God in private and in public with no restrictions or laws established to prevent; however, that is not the case in the last 40 to 60 years.

Every preamble of the constitutions of all 50 states recognize Almighty God; however, our government has decided in my lifetime that Jesus Christ should not be mentioned in prayers within our government chambers. This a nation when Jon Jay, the first supreme court justice stated, "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.â€Â1

John Jay also made the following observation and statement:

• “Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.â€Â2

Here is a quote which is manifesting its truth in American society today because of our government falling away from Almighty God in its poorly followed constructs brought to us by the spirit of antichrist.

• "Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall, when the wise are banished from the public councils, because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded, because they flatter the people, in order to betray them."3

• 
  [list:1wubzxgd]1 Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.
  2 The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365
  3 Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution, 1833

[/list:u:1wubzxgd]

 

[Aero_Hudson]

A couple of thoughts...I have to admit that I am just about finished with the thread...I get this feeling that Solo, you are not reading my posts and are giving no creedence to what I am writing.

- I will post some excerpts from our Constitution and other government sources as well as the author of the Declaration of Independence as well as a fellow signer. Point out where it says that Christianity is the only acceptable form of religion by which to worship.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

James Madison: Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects? that the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute three pence only of his property for the support of any one establishment, may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?

- I agree that this nation was founded on Christian "principles" that does not make us a Christian nation. It makes us a free nation giving its citizens the ability to make their own decisions on what and how to worship. Example again in the Treaty of Tripoli.

Treaty of Tripoli 1797: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

- John Jay may have felt that leaders should only be Christians. That is all well and good but our Constitution and the law of the land says something completely different.

Article VI: Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

In other words, their religious practices are of no concern to the running of the government and their capacity to hold a public office.

To make a long story short...

- You do not have to be a Christian to hold public office
- Our Constitution does not directly or indirectly state that Christianity is the only religion that its citizens should practice or that is acceptable.
- Our nation was founded on Christian principles which manifested into a nation that values freedom above all else of men and women to choose their faith and pursue their lives as they see fit.
- One non related point...I have read some points on these boards where folks want less government intervention in their lives. Why should this not apply to us spiritually as well?

Aero out!

 

[JoJo]

I have some questions for all those who desire to see America establish Christianity as its official religion:

1. What would you propose be done about those who aren't Christians? How would they be allowed to fit in with society?

2. If Christianity were our official religion, what laws would you propose be enacted to keep it that way?

See, all I'm saying is that if any nation establishes an official religion, it must enact laws to protect its religious status. And I have no doubt whatsoever that those laws would end up in religious discrimination and persecution. And that is not what America is or ever was about.

no, u misunderatand the government had no official religion even but they chose to embrace jesus even while performing official duties, something that would looked down upon today, btw did u know that it said that event the military chaplians corps are being sought out by aclu(violates the constitution) and that the christians chaplains can't pray in Jesus name and be aware that the military provides chaplains for most of the major faiths, even islamic ones. in combat these chaplains are vital.

jason

My cousin is a military chaplain. I'll try to ask him about this and get back to you.

 

[JoJo]

To be frank, my concern is specifically for the Jews of this country. If America ever decided to establish Christianity as its official religion, then where would that put the Jew? As Aero pointed out, would he be able to hold office? Vote? Celebrate his religion and traditions without discrimination or persecution?

That's all I'm trying to say.